On-grain distillation from Yellow Label "mash"

[NormandieStill]

So a few months back I toasted up some rolled barley and made a simple no mash whisky with yellow label yeast. The three buckets have been sat in my office smelling delicious for a while now and I've finally cleared enough time and space to actually strip them. But having just siphoned off the first two buckets, I find that only about 50% of the volume is clear liquor. In the past, I'd just squeeze the solids and let the resulting goop settle out, but I now have a steam stripping rig so I got to wondering... but before I become the guinea pig I'd like to know if anyone else has steamed the solids from a YL mash. Any interesting flavour carry-over? I think I can strip 2 charges of clear wash from racking, so I'm not taking too big a risk by trying it... I just don't want to do it if someone has already found something horrific carrying over.

[jessespa]

I can't say anything about with barley but I haven't noticed anything horrific with the YL with corn steam stripped on grain.

[Dancing4dan]

I have steam stripped on grain YL ferments. Never had a problem. Bourbon, corn whisky, scotch have all been done this way. My process is a little different than most guys.

For a spirit run I collect in small jars while using a LM/VM combo still head on short copper packed column. This has allowed me to use the LM to compress heads at the start of the run. When LM starts collecting hearts I stop product collection and reflux for a few minutes then switch to VM. The VM will compress tails.

Wait a few days and make my cuts. Eliminate any jar that has flavor I don’t like.

The final product is barrel aged. I just emptied a barrel yesterday that was from March 2022. Malted barley fermented with YL. The YL allows me to use tap water at 32* C for “mashing”. Made a damn nice whisky!

[NormandieStill]

Thanks guys. I'll steam strip the goop then. The wash smells amazing and is purple, like a red wine. Other than the steam strip I'll be following my normal 2x distillation protocol. I tend to run my spirit runs quite slow so I get reasonable separation of heads. If this works out well it'll be the simplest whisky I've ever made.

[NormandieStill]

First steam strip done. First time steaming an AG. Yield was about what I would expect from the volume that went into the still but it went cloudy earlier than I'm used to and was oily as hell. Seems tasty though. Looking forward to comparing with a strip of the clear wash this weekend.

[Dancing4dan]

First steam strip done. First time steaming an AG. Yield was about what I would expect from the volume that went into the still but it went cloudy earlier than I'm used to and was oily as hell. Seems tasty though. Looking forward to comparing with a strip of the clear wash this weekend.

What type of still are you going to use for your spirit runs?

[NormandieStill]

What type of still are you going to use for your spirit runs?

Straight pot still. No bells. No whistles. I tend to run quite slowly (aim for 500ml / hr) at first to try and get good separation of the heads. Then I'll speed up once into hearts.

I've got a 1m column and CCVM head but removing the packing to detune it will be problematic and not an experiment I planned on doing.

[Saltbush Bill]

Straight pot still. No bells. No whistles.

Pretty much how I've run what I've made using YLY.
Been more than happy with the results once it's spent a bit of time on oak.
Looking forward to seeing your results.

[Poitín Sue]

Could I ask what quantity of yl yeast you are using ....per gallon, or 25 litres etc?

[NormandieStill]

Could I ask what quantity of yl yeast you are using ....per gallon, or 25 litres etc?

I did thé maths some time ago and settled on the following:

8kg of grain (ground to course flour)
23l water
42g yellow label yeast

Use hot and cold water to get to pitching temperature with the last drops. Make sure the flour is thoroughly mixed before pitching and mix at least once a day for the first three of four days. That recipe, in a 32l bucket, almost spills over but doesn't quite... at least in my experience. I'd have their first 24 hours spent in a bathtub to prevent mess.

Obviously this scales up or down as desired. For me it was the sweet spot that filled three fermenters with one sack of grain.

[Poitín Sue]

Thanks. Couple of nuggets for a beginner there....stirring and grinding to a coarse grain. Never would have thought

[Saltbush Bill]

You might find this link interesting P. Sue.....lots of info about yellow lable yeast.
viewtopic.php?t=76531

[Dancing4dan]

What type of still are you going to use for your spirit runs?

Straight pot still. No bells. No whistles. I tend to run quite slowly (aim for 500ml / hr) at first to try and get good separation of the heads. Then I'll speed up once into hearts.

I've got a 1m column and CCVM head but removing the packing to detune it will be problematic and not an experiment I planned on doing.

Because steam does tend to bring over more oil I have put some SS or copper packing in the pot still between top of the keg and the lyne arm. The oils will tend to collect and condense on that bit of packing during the spirit run.

I have used a LM/VM reflux setup with a short uninsulated column packed with copper instead of pot still. With a sight glass above the column I can see tails coming on, shut off product take off, go into reflux to push the oils back down. Then restart product take off again going real slow to collect a little more. It’s not really a reflux set up but not really a pot still either. It does allow me to separate or compress tails slightly. There are flavours at the end close to tails I like to blend in with cuts in small amounts.

[Poitín Sue]

Just wondering- the instructions seem to refer to using flour or finely milled grain. Would simple bread flour work...and assuming it fermented OK would it clear after fermentation? I can buy light and dark rye flour easily enough

[elbono]

Would simple bread flour work...?

You should probably take an evening and read the no mash no sugar thread but all purpose flour wirks. Make sure there's lots of head room in the fermenter and be diligent about the stirring regimen.

viewtopic.php?p=7740947#p7740947

[NormandieStill]

Just wondering- the instructions seem to refer to using flour or finely milled grain. Would simple bread flour work...and assuming it fermented OK would it clear after fermentation? I can buy light and dark rye flour easily enough

I used the remainder of a bag of wholemeal flour that had started to smell musty to make a "neutral" wash for refluxing. It works just fine, but as elbono said, watch your headroom and stir well.

[BoilerMaker]

Just wondering- the instructions seem to refer to using flour or finely milled grain. Would simple bread flour work...and assuming it fermented OK would it clear after fermentation? I can buy light and dark rye flour easily enough

Here's a thread from a few years ago, where a few members experimented with wheat flour:

viewtopic.php?t=44543

The main issue was that it wouldn't clear. The OP was using ULWD electric elements and after some initial success, later commented the fines would sometimes cake onto the element. Once that happened it would easily scorch unless the element was cleaned. IIRC

HTH

[rubberduck71]

So a few months back I toasted up some rolled barley and made a simple no mash whisky with yellow label yeast. The three buckets have been sat in my office smelling delicious for a while now and I've finally cleared enough time and space to actually strip them. But having just siphoned off the first two buckets, I find that only about 50% of the volume is clear liquor. In the past, I'd just squeeze the solids and let the resulting goop settle out, but I now have a steam stripping rig so I got to wondering... but before I become the guinea pig I'd like to know if anyone else has steamed the solids from a YL mash. Any interesting flavour carry-over? I think I can strip 2 charges of clear wash from racking, so I'm not taking too big a risk by trying it... I just don't want to do it if someone has already found something horrific carrying over.

I use my tall hop spider as a filter for my auto siphon to drain YLAY on-grain ferments. You CAN do sugarheads on the trub!

[Poitín Sue]

Here's a thread from a few years ago, where a few members experimented with wheat flour:

viewtopic.php?t=44543

The main issue was that it wouldn't clear. The OP was using ULWD electric elements and after some initial success, later commented the fines would sometimes cake onto the element. Once that happened it would easily scorch unless the element was cleaned. IIRC

HTH
[/quote]

Thanks. That's interesting alright. So I could use something to clear the mash...but I suspect it'll clear some of the flavour also?
The flour idea seems attractive because the starch will be accessible, but I think a lot of flavour, aroma etc must be in the husk etc....otherwise ujssm, cornflake recipes etc wouldn't be so flavourful? Maybe these are the daft musings of a nocive that have already been answered....apologies if so

[NormandieStill]

An update:

I managed to find the time to do the spirit run on this whisky. Put 17.5l at ~25% into the still, of which about 6l came from steam distillation of the grains. Ran it pretty slow, although I'd have preferred a little slower at the start. Got 24 jars at ~ 250ml per jar. The last 3 jars were properly cloudy and slightly sweet. I finished up with a hearts cut of a little over 3l (ended up including the first of those cloudy jars). There seemed to be some interesting fruity stuff heading up into the heads, but I didn't want to chance it. Didn't get any actual, obvious toast notes, but there's a slight dark chocolate hint in one of the jars.

I was impressed at how clean the tails were. I feel that the yeast might have appreciated their slow ferment, and did a nice job cleaning up after themselves.

The new make is in a glass jar at the back of a cupboard with a slightly undersized used stave from my first batch of HBB. Just need to wait now.

[Garouda]

Good to see our friend from Normandy in the driver seat.
I plan to use some corn my wife managed to buy from some friend of her in the village and use my brew in a bag setting for the purpose.
Actually, I built it to brew beer but haven't done a single ml beer so far. Last time I used it was for a mango still wine and mango sparkling (méthode champenoise) wine.
This is what they say at Angel Yeast
For fermentation of un-cooked grain
Recipes:
100 kg (220 lb) of rice, corn or other grain
250-300 kg (550-660 lb) of hot water
0.3-0.6 kg (0.66-1.32 lb) of Angel leaven (yellow label)
Method:
1) Mill the grain (ideally to use small course pieces), and mix the dry grain with 250-300kg (550-660 lb) of hot water.
2) Add 0.5-0.8kg (1.10-1.76Ib) of Angel leaven (yellow label) after the temperature is naturally cooled to about 32℃ (90°F) (mix to prevent from sedimentation).
3) Evenly mix, and ferment for 8-15 days.
4) Mix twice every day in the first three days (please ensure the temperature is 28-36℃ (82-97 °F)).
5) The optimal fermentation temperature is about 32℃ (90°F), in the short period, the highest fermentation temperature shall not be over 38℃ (100°F), and take the heat insulation measure when the temperature is below 26℃ (79°F).

I have a 100-litre fermenter and a 100-litre boiler, so I may start with 20 kg of corn, or 45 lbs and 6 lbs of base malt.
If I make the maths, I can see that I cannot convert all the starches, assume the base malt has a diastatic power of 140 Lintner, the total will be 140 x 6 = 840 Lintner for a total weight of 51 lbs, which gives me 840/51=15.5 Lintner, the absolute minimum being 30 Lintner/lbs, I prefer to use Angel Leaven yeast (Yellow Label) than playing with amylase.
So I'm going to use 100g of Yeast, 60 litres water and 20 kg of corn + 6lbs base barley malt I have at home.
After fermentation, I'm going to raise the bag with its container, press the used grain, rinse it a little and run the wash through my pot still for a stripping run as usual.
Comments are mostly appreciated.

[MooseMan]

Nice setup Garouda, I wish I had a space like that to brew in too.

[harold01]

That's more than nice, that's kick arse as we say in Australia

[Poitín Sue]

Anyway, kids are in bed and I've recovered sufficiently from my last all night spirit run to let me countenance the idea of creating another big bucket of wash that needs distilling and redistilling.
.
So I've got crushed malted barley, and I'm trusting my yellow label to do the job of enzymes. But it's only crushed and not the 'flour' that the angel people talk about. I've decided to spread the 8 kilos of grain across 4 pots, simmer them very gently for an hour and then dump them into the fermenter. Throw in suitable amounts of cold water, and the yeast and then say a brief prayer to the spirit of the drip that never gets old. I've a kilo of rye flour which i might throw into the mix also.

[Poitín Sue]

I forgot to add..... does this sound OK?

[elbono]

I forgot to add..... does this sound OK?

No need for all that work. Check out this thread
viewtopic.php?t=76531

Add hot water (135-140F) to grain malted or unmalted. Let it cool to 90F add YLAY. Do it all in the fermenter. Grind determines speed more than yeild. Stir religiously twice a day for a few days

Ancient Chinese mojo, it just works.

[Dancing4dan]

I forgot to add..... does this sound OK?

No need for all that work. Check out this thread
viewtopic.php?t=76531

Add hot water (135-140F) to grain malted or unmalted. Let it cool to 90F add YLAY. Do it all in the fermenter. Grind determines speed more than yeild. Stir religiously twice a day for a few days

Ancient Chinese mojo, it just works.

I'm with you on this one. Best Thing about YLY is how much time, labour and energy I save. Add water to grains for a final temp of 32*c and pitch YLY. When the ferment is done, however long that takes, Go do your stripping protocol.

[Saltbush Bill]

I've got crushed malted barley, and I'm trusting my yellow label to do the job of enzymes. But it's only crushed and not the 'flour' that the angel people talk about.

It doesn't need to be flour....fairly fine crushed/ ground is enough.
Your causing your self extra time and work with all that boiling.
Follow the instructions for that yeast, keep at the yeasts preferred temp and remember to stir twice a day for the first 3-4 days.

[Poitín Sue]

You three fellas are the holy trinity of greatness. I'm used to sugar heads....but I lately i cook the non sugar portion until I take a sugary breakfast cereal sweetness . I'm not really getting it this t8me, it's actually a bit bitter. But on we go.
In the meantime I'm sipping bearded and bored distilled pineapple tepache....aged on Oak for about 6 months. Unreal

[zach]

I'm getting ready to try a batch of cornmeal in a 30 gallon brute trash can for maybe a 24 gallon batch.

My garage is about 65 F this time a year. I can insulated the trash can. Does this ferment generate any of it's own heat?

I see the minimum temperature is 82 F and might take 15 days. Will it stall out if it drops to 65 F?

Do I need more head space?