Can this mess be saved??

[Mr_Beer]

Jimbo’s AG recipe.
Followed the proportions of grain to water exactly.
Approximately 22 gallon in fermenter. New containers without airlocks.
OG of 1.051 – what you would expect.
Four packages’ US-05 yeast.
Waited 15 days.
SG had not changed – stuck fermentation.
Added adequate amounts of Distillers Active Dry Yeast to restart fermentation.
Changed fermenters to closed pails.
Waited 4 days and tested SG – no change.

Finally it occurred to me to check the ph – looks to be about 3.8. Probably why the yeast did not take off.

Going to town to get some calcium carbonate or calcium hydroxide to raise ph.


The question is, can this mess be saved after all this time or should I discard and start over?

If the ph can be raised, how much of either chemical should I add for about 18 gallons.

[8Ball]

A starting gravity of 1.051 seems a bit low at 2# per gallon. What was/is the gravity now? What was the starting pH? Did it ever start fermenting? What were the starting & current temps?

[Dougmatt]

3.8 is a little low, but I would have still expected US 05 and DADY to start. We probably need more information to help. What’s your temperature? Those 2 yeasts have very different temperature profiles. Were both yeasts fresh? Is your SG still 1.051 and how are you measuring it? Do you see any activity at all (fizzing, bubbling, grains moving etc? Did you follow jimbo’s exactly?

At this point and without more information, I would probably consider warming it up (80+ F) and likely make a DADY starter to get it going if it doesn’t take off on its own. I wouldn’t tip it over at this point. Seems like something else is going on.

[Lc 1ace]

The real question is why is your mash so acidic to begin with? But, I wouldn't dump it. I've had stuck ferments more than a couple of times. Aireation is a very big deal for your yeast colony to start. I have an aquarium air pump with two hoses and airstones on the ends. I weight them with a kithen spoon and drop them to the bottom of my mash , and let them run for at least a couple hours to sometimes overnight. Then i pitch my yeast. I've never had one stall again.

[jonnys_spirit]

What were your mash temps?

Does it taste sweet?

Did you do a starch test?

Cheers,
jonny

[Mr_Beer]

GREAT Suggestions !!
Thanks to everyone.

My process is to use BeerSmith to evaluate/compute the OG based on grain inputs. So far it has been very close. It predicted 1.052, I measured 1.051. The OG may be low but thata is what I measured and compared it to.
Starch test indicated conversion. Even if it had not fully converted there is enough sugar in the wort to do something., Started to ferment and then quit.

To answer the questions -- the temp profile was in the 70s for the US-05. I put on heat belts and raised the temp to low 80s for the DADY yeast.
My speculation is that the ph is too low for the yeast to start and thrive -- just my guess.

But everyone said do not give up and try and salvage it. That is very reassuring.


And the $64 question is why ph was so low to begin with. That will require more data and evaluation on the next batch(s).

I have used aquarium pumps with beer so I will do it with these worts. Great suggestion.

Will report back in a week or so.

[jonnys_spirit]

Thanks Mr_Beer - 70's for the yeast shouldn't cause any issues but I was asking specifically about your mash-in temp when you mixed grains and water - was this 140*F, 150*F, 160*F - And how long did you let it mash?

Thx,
jonny

[Twisted Brick]

Just curious, Mr_Beer. What kind of grain (barley?) was it?

[greggn]

SG had not changed – stuck fermentation.

In your welcome post you mentioned having extensive experience in making beer. So, are stuck fermentations a recurring issue or is this something new ? If new, has something changed in your environment ? A different water source, perhaps ?

[still_stirrin]

pH 3.8 is surprisingly acidic, especially without much fermentation. And typically, an all grain mash will buffer an acid crash. I suspect some sort of bacteria has taken ahold of your fermenter. And that bacteria doesn’t consume the sugars. Have you tasted the beer yet?

I have no doubts your mashing process worked (to give you a 1.051 original gravity). But something else has grabbed your wort.

And a 3.8 pH is well below public consumption standards for water. Is it possible someone tried to contaminate your hobby venture?
…Suspicions arise.
ss

[Mr_Beer]

Thanks to everyone who is trying to help....

The Jimbo recipe has an all malted wheat alternative -- that is what I used.
23 gallons water to 40 pounds of Rahr White Malted wheat
No enzymes

Mash in was at 150 -- possibly 152.
Let it sit overnight
Iodine test indicated conversion.
Transferred to 15 gallon HDPE fermentation containers with loose fitting lids.
The mixture fermented 'on grain' for almost two weeks prior to removing the grains and squeezing and measuring the OG at 1.051.

In 26 years of beer and wine making I never have had a stuck sparge. So I am obviously puzzled.
Same water as I use for everything in our home -- well water that has been tested by Wards Laboratory (a reputable testing service in Midwest America). I have used the same water for the prior 4 batches of beer that have been distilled.

Went to town and purchased 50# of calcium carbonate -- known in Arkansas as Agricultural Lime. Interesting, only $7 for a bag versus lots more in a normal store.

I have added about 2 cups of this stuff to a 7 gallon fermentation pail with an aquarium pump running away.

The ph does not seem to be changing -- that is why I asked the question regarding amount. At this point I can add as much as needed but from what I read, it is not very water soluable . For all I know it has sunk to the bottom of the fermentation pail.

In answer to SS, no I have not tasted it. I will, but do not know what it should taste like...

My sense is that this is a lost cause as SS suggested. That said I need to learn something regarding calcium carbonate. If I keep adding it to the fermentation pail should it change the ph level??

[NZChris]

You're finding out why calcium carbonate isn't recommended for adjusting pH. A bag of slaked lime from a building supply store would cost about the same and works very quickly.

[Saltbush Bill]

no I have not tasted it. I will, but do not know what it should taste like...

Right there is one good reason that you should stick a finger in every type of ferment that you make, and more than once, at different stages .of the ferment.
Do it often enough and you will know what it should taste like.....using your senses often tells you more than you might think.

[Deplorable]

Mr. Beer, it should not taste like beer.
It should be sour. Have you verified you pH test is valid? Test paper or a digital tester? Both go tits up.
You said you removed the grains after fermentation, was the beer sticky, or was it devoid of sugar?

[8Ball]

The mixture fermented 'on grain' for almost two weeks prior to removing the grains and squeezing and measuring the OG at 1.051.

So it fermented for almost two weeks, then you measured a gravity of 1.051. Which is exactly the gravity you started with. Not sure how you managed to have a ferment working for two weeks without a gravity change.

[Saltbush Bill]

You said you removed the grains after fermentation,

The mixture fermented 'on grain' for almost two weeks prior to removing the grains and squeezing and measuring the OG at 1.051.

This isn't adding up to me, any all grain wash I've ever done....even a slow ferment at cool temps in winter has been well and truly done in two weeks.

[bilgriss]

2 weeks and low pH would indicate that it's fully fermented.

Any chance you are using a refractometer to measure the gravity?

[Deplorable]

You said you removed the grains after fermentation,

The mixture fermented 'on grain' for almost two weeks prior to removing the grains and squeezing and measuring the OG at 1.051.

This isn't adding up to me, any all grain wash I've ever done....even a slow ferment at cool temps in winter has been well and truly done in two weeks.

I bet it's sour, and done.

[Saltbush Bill]

I'll take a punt and agree with you Deplorable, don't need any hydrometer to tell when it's done if ya own a tounge.

[shadylane]

You're finding out why calcium carbonate isn't recommended for adjusting pH. A bag of slaked lime from a building supply store would cost about the same and works very quickly.

+1
CC is better used to moderate pH, it's not very effective at making large adjustments.
When using pickling lime, I'll mix the lime with water first, before adding it a little at a time to the fermenter. Stir in some, measure the pH then add some more if needed.

Personally, I think there was a mistake done during the mashing process.
That, or there's a mistake being done measuring the gravity.

[shadylane]

2 weeks and low pH would indicate that it's fully fermented.

Any chance you are using a refractometer to measure the gravity?

Good question.
More than once folks have used a refractometer to measure the final gravity.
And thought a fermentation had stalled, when it actually had finished dry.

[NZChris]

Often, the cause of a problem is in information that the distiller didn't think was important enough to mention when asking for advice.

[shadylane]

Often, the cause of a problem is in information that the distiller didn't think was important enough to mention when asking for advice.

That, and sometimes it's a combination of different problems.
Each of which, alone didn't cause the failure.
But when added together were enough to fuck things up and add confusion as to what went wrong.

[Mr_Beer]

I want to thank everyone who has commented. Most likely there was a set of cumulative mistakes that led to this mess.
As a former R&D person, I am familiar with the notion/fact that about 80% of all experiments fail for some reason. Trying again helps refine the process and uncover the mistakes. And that seems like that is the case here.


Regarding ph -- an admonishment ...
I have used Calcium Carbonate -- from local feed store. This stuff is essentially ground up limestone as far as I can determine.
After adding quite a bit to one of the fermentation pails the ph did change -- ph is now 4.5 or 5. I am using test strips and the color match does indicate change upward.

What I did not expect was that this limestone stuff settles in the bottom of the fermentation vessel -- it does not dissolve or go into solution. So now you have a bunch of sedimentation in the bottom that is essentially rock particles. Reminds me of the admonishment given to anyone who decides to polish rocks -- DO NOT DUMP LIQUID INTO THE DRAIN. It will clog up the drain and be very hard to flush out. Over time it almost get like concrete inside the drain pipe.

Certainly an unexpected consequence and mentioned here for the benefit of others who may read this post.

NZCris suggested Slaked Lime which is Calcium Hydroxide. This product is highly caustic -- about 12.4. It seems that no building supply folks carry it; most likely because it is so caustic and could be a liability issue in a retail setting. Amazon has Mrs. Wages Pickling Lime which is calcium hydroxide according to the label. The local farm store also sells it in the 55 pound bag for modest price. I had a little in our supply area and it works like a charm -- reduces the ph level quite effectively. Thanks to NZCris for the suggestion.


Regarding SG measurement...
I am using a hydrometer for all measurements. A refractometer is available and it essentially matches the values of the hydrometer.

I have a digital ph meter as well as ph testing strips. They all correspond within about .2 of each other -- but that is very subjective since color perception varies by individual.

The only conclusion I can offer is try again and DO NOT use calcium carbonate made from limestone in your fermentation vessel.

[Lc 1ace]

Airiate it and pitch 12 packets of bread yeast from the supermarket. Start the yeast before you pitch it. Heat a couple of quarts of water to 100-110 degrees F. Disolve a tablespoon of sugar in it and add yeast. It will rise in about 5 or 10 minutes. Then pitch. It should start.

[NZChris]

Calcium carbonate is fine in a fermenter, I use it in most sugar washes to prevent pH crashes, but it works best as chunks or blocks, (I use whole sea shells), not in a powdered form.

[Broken Jug]

I’m glad I found this post. I am experiencing the same problem with my all grain.

I started it two weeks ago, fermentation has stopped, so my plan was to run it this weekend. I checked the SG a few minutes ago, and the SG was 1.058, starting/OG was 1.060. I check the SG with a hydrometer and a refractor, both read the same.

This is the first time I have had this happen to me since I’ve started in this hobby over 10 years ago.

I checked the ph and it was ~3.9, just like Mr._Beer's.

After reading still_stirrin's reply,I believe I know what the problem is, got infected with bad bacteria while waiting for my ferment to cool down to pitching temp.

What makes me think that?

Well, I took about a quart of the ferment/mash into the house to settle and cool so I could take a good reading. This was late afternoon early evening. The next morning the sample separated nicely, and got a good reading of 1.060 at room temp.

But when I went out to brewing shed to pitch the yeast, I was surprised to see that it had a foamy cap on it and was fizzing. I threw extra yeast in hopes of overcoming the infection, but obviously that didn’t work. Need to get me a wort chiller!!!!

Like I said earlier, I never had this happen before. I just got lazy and didn’t watch it as close as I should have. Lesson learned.

My wife is at the store right now to try and find some pickling lime.

I hope I can save mine As well Mr._Beer.

[shadylane]

Have your wife buy a drill and paint stirrer if Ya don't already have them.

Ya might want to consider heating the mash to kill off the bacteria.
Cool and aerate the mash, then pitch a yeast starter

[Broken Jug]

Have your wife buy a drill and paint stirrer if Ya don't already have them.

Ya might want to consider heating the mash to kill off the bacteria.
Cool and aerate the mash, then pitch a yeast starter

Thanks for the info shadylane, I do all the above.

I cook 50 pounds of milled corn in a 30 gallon pot at a temp between 180F and 190F for a min of 1.5 hrs, most of the time I go 2 hrs.

Next, I pour in some cold water to get my temp down to 150F, then I add my malt and maintain a temp between 140F and 145F.

After about 1.5 hrs I do an iodine test, most of the time it passes the test, if not, I let it set another hour then check it again.

Then I add the remaining cold water to give me my final volume, after adding the last of the water (cold), I check the temp again.

Some times I need to cover it and let it set overnight for it to cool down to pitching temp, which is what I had to do with this mash.

Once it comes down to pitching temp, I grab my drill and big mixer and "aerate" the sh_t out of it, then I pitch my yeast.

I cover it and let the yeast do its job.

This is what I do with all my mashes.

Even though it was covered, the bad bacteria must have been introduced while it set overnight.

All my equipment was cleaned thoroughly.

[shadylane]

Even though it was covered, the bad bacteria must have been introduced while it set overnight.

The bacteria was in the malt.
Beer brewers boil the wort, distillers have to depend on the yeast winning the race.