Saftey Concerns from fire testing

[Appelle22]

Hello all, this is my first ever real post to this form so sorry if I give either a little too much or not enough information.

The Safety Concern that I come asking for help with results from testing my Spirit Run using fire (and this is gonna be a little confusing/weird, but I use a spray bottle that has a little shot of the distillate in it, and I spray the distillate into an open flame to see the resulting color), and oddly enough the flame looked fine until part way into the hearts where a sample spray showed a green tinge to the flame. This green discoloration was not present, at least detectibly, in any of the prior tests (of which I took from various samples most all the fractions I pulled off the still). However, using methods that I looked up to test my moonshine, it seemed fine (I should mention that when my distillate burned in a puddle there was no detectable green discoloration). Is this test im using overkill and the spoon/puddle is telling me it safe or should I trust there is something wrong by seeing this green tinge?

For background: The still that I have is about as cheap as you can get - an amazon special - the Vevor 5 Gallon Still w/ Thumper, and I feel like I've been cleaning my still a lot trying to avoid this issue. To clean: I will soak the copper parts in vinegar over night and then run the still with a gallon worth of vinegar + no water in the condenser for 30 minutes, and then rinse them all with water and proceed to my Spirit Run (I feel justified not doing another sacrificial run because this still is quite accessible with water but could this be a possible culprit?)

What am I running: All Grain bourbon mashes - but I've ran into this issue consistently ever since I've tested like this and just don't wanna drink anything unhealthy - but its sucks to keep having to toss whats getting made.

My assumptions?: Not really sure at this point - my distillate is clear and ive tested it with baking soda for copper sulphate but no blue color has reared its head in a noticeable way.
So I thought I'd best come ask the pros.

I have kept the fractions from this previous run for this exact post, and was wondering if any of you very smart people could lead me in the direction of solving this issue so I can keep some of this fine whiskey I've been tasting but havent had the pleasure of keeping yet lol.
Posting photos for reference

[sadie33]

I am no expert, but I know you are not sapose to use plastics, maybe your spray bottle is plastic and that's why? Not sure, maybe someone with more experience will chime in.

I haven't heard of testing like that, only lighting it on a spoon.

Also, I don't see any photos.

[jonnys_spirit]

Flame test is dangerous and doesn't tell you anything.

Read this:
viewtopic.php?t=75486

Cheers!
-jonny

[shadylane]

The Safety Concern that I come asking for help with results from testing my Spirit Run using fire

My 2 cents worth
The outcome of using a flame test is somewhere between misleading and totally wrong.

[Renhoekk]

Burning your alcohol doesn’t indicate how safe/unsafe it is.

[Boozewaves]

if you want to be completely safe test all brass with a lead test kit , be sure there is no silicone gaskets (if there is replace them with flour paste for each run or wrap with ptfe plumbers paste . look up everlasting gasket too for an easy way to safely make or replace a gasket

the chances are the stainless boiler and "thumper" is ok to use as most pans are the right stainless . you can buy test liquid to test if its 304 grade but they (vevor) would not gain very much by using a different type as china makes lots of 304 so its cheap over there

I think a sacrificial run is really important , alcohol cleans better than vinegar . if you can make an all grain mash , a sugar wash for a cleaning run should be no problem

[Saltbush Bill]

Nice youtube clip Renhoekk
Pretty much the same result Yummy got with his experiments.....I'll be keeping that link for future use.

[shadylane]

Ethanol or methanol, all burn a pretty blue.
It would take a lot of metallic contaminates to change the burning color.
None of which would make it past distillation.

[Appelle22]

Flame test is dangerous and doesn't tell you anything.

Read this:
viewtopic.php?t=75486

Cheers!
-jonny

Good to note and thank you for your response, is there a preferred way to test for copper sulfate that you're aware of?

[Appelle22]

Ethanol or methanol, all burn a pretty blue.
It would take a lot of metallic contaminates to change the burning color.
None of which would make it past distillation.

Wow thats really good to know, so from what you've read would you say that my process is sounding pretty close to okay/safe? Ill definitely be doing a sacrifical run as advised by a previous commenter. Thank you for your response.

[Appelle22]

if you want to be completely safe test all brass with a lead test kit , be sure there is no silicone gaskets (if there is replace them with flour paste for each run or wrap with ptfe plumbers paste . look up everlasting gasket too for an easy way to safely make or replace a gasket

the chances are the stainless boiler and "thumper" is ok to use as most pans are the right stainless . you can buy test liquid to test if its 304 grade but they (vevor) would not gain very much by using a different type as china makes lots of 304 so its cheap over there

I think a sacrificial run is really important , alcohol cleans better than vinegar . if you can make an all grain mash , a sugar wash for a cleaning run should be no problem

Great information brother, thank you for your response - im definitely gonna take your advice and start doing sacrificial runs after any vinegar cleaning and will try to acquire a test for the "copper parts". But from what you've read on my original post does it sound like i'm operating pretty close to the right way/safely? And if youre aware of any preferred way to test for copper sulfate id love to hear your thoughts - getting amped to try again with your guys' help.

[Appelle22]

I am no expert, but I know you are not sapose to use plastics, maybe your spray bottle is plastic and that's why? Not sure, maybe someone with more experience will chime in.

I haven't heard of testing like that, only lighting it on a spoon.

Also, I don't see any photos.

I definitely am in that boat with you, man - im about as green as they come and have came to distilling from a beer brewing background. Thank you for your response I appreciate it. Ill get the photos I thought i had attached posted tomorrow so hopefully theyll pop up for everyone to see this time lol.

[Appelle22]

Hey I just gotta say really quick that im very grateful for y'all to respond like everyone has! Not gonna lie, I was worried no one would respond at all or at minimum they might "give me the boot" figuratively speaking cause im a bit of a noob lol - makes me excited to be a part of this little community already and cant wait to grow though here with the great help thats already been provided.

[Yummyrum]

Hey Appelle22
I’ve been High School Lab Tech for about last 9 years . I am very familiar with flame tests to show spectral colours of metal salts .
Typical salts in a spray bottle were in the order of 0.1mol/L . That would give a very noticeable colour when sprayed on a Bunsen burner . …. But salts were dissolved in water ….. not flammable alcohol

Copper Sulphate and copper chloride solutions gave the nice green colour .

Another way we did it was soaking a paddle pop stick in solution and burning that in a bunsen burner .

Another way was a loop of nichrome wire dipped into solution and burned . This worked for most salts …. Except ferric Chloride . For that we needed platenum wire .

Anyway , ……………. As a high school demo …….. work health and safety would have not approved your test .

Spraying Alcohol on a flame ……. Nogo .

Soak a paddle pop stick or dip a nichrome loop and light it …. Sure .

[jonnys_spirit]

Flame test is dangerous and doesn't tell you anything.

Read this:
viewtopic.php?t=75486

Cheers!
-jonny

Good to note and thank you for your response, is there a preferred way to test for copper sulfate that you're aware of?

I did a little googling and found suggestions in various chemistry groups that one can test for copper and one can test for sulfate but one cannot test for copper sulfate.

At home DIY tests are one thing but I think you would really want metrics if you have a very strong concern.

The vinegar run, rinse well, sacrificial run protocol will clean your still well and further stripping and spirit runs with a simple water rinse between runs will keep it clean and more importantly “seasoned”. The seasoning of your cooking apparatus will develop the more you use it. Some folks call this a patina.

I wouldn’t worry too much about copper sulfate after you do your cleaning runs. Just get on to runnin’ the still and the more the better.

Cheers,
-j

[Dancing4dan]

I feel like I've been cleaning my still a lot trying to avoid this issue. To clean: I will soak the copper parts in vinegar over night and then run the still with a gallon worth of vinegar + no water in the condenser for 30 minutes, and then rinse them all with water and proceed to my Spirit Run (I feel justified not doing another sacrificial run because this still is quite accessible with water but could this be a possible culprit?)

This may be contributing to the issue. Copper oxides are removed each time it is cleaned exposing the nice shiny copper for the next run which forms an excess of different oxides because the copper is fully exposed.

Brown / red oxide that builds up actually protects the copper after a while.

Cleaning protocol is a vinegar run followed by a sacrificial ETOH run. Vinegar cleans the copper of manufacturing and fabrication products like oil and flux residue. The sacrificial run allows the copper to get a coating of oxide that will protect the copper.

Think about a reflux column packed with copper scrubbies. I have a 2” column that is 48” tall full of copper scrubbies. If I did a vinegar clean between each use my distillate would be green.

[Appelle22]

Hey Appelle22
I’ve been High School Lab Tech for about last 9 years . I am very familiar with flame tests to show spectral colours of metal salts .
Typical salts in a spray bottle were in the order of 0.1mol/L . That would give a very noticeable colour when sprayed on a Bunsen burner . …. But salts were dissolved in water ….. not flammable alcohol

Copper Sulphate and copper chloride solutions gave the nice green colour .

Another way we did it was soaking a paddle pop stick in solution and burning that in a bunsen burner .

Another way was a loop of nichrome wire dipped into solution and burned . This worked for most salts …. Except ferric Chloride . For that we needed platenum wire .

Anyway , ……………. As a high school demo …….. work health and safety would have not approved your test .

Spraying Alcohol on a flame ……. Nogo .

Soak a paddle pop stick or dip a nichrome loop and light it …. Sure .

Thank you for your response and I agree that this format of testing poses some safety risks lol; however, I have set up a testing area that is free from flammable materials (IE: wood, paper, cloth, more alcohol, ect), but greatly appreciate your input and will move to your aforementioned testing methods. By "paddle pop" do you mean a popcicle stick? And from the information youve provided would it be fair to say then that the ethanol I produced was contaminated with some type of copper salt?

[Yummyrum]

LOL , yes Popsicle stick's . I moved from NZ to Aussie several decades ago .

But yes I would agree that if you are seeing a green flame , it’s most likely due to Copper salts . .
An interesting observation .

You have piqued my interest to test this out myself .

[Appelle22]

I feel like I've been cleaning my still a lot trying to avoid this issue. To clean: I will soak the copper parts in vinegar over night and then run the still with a gallon worth of vinegar + no water in the condenser for 30 minutes, and then rinse them all with water and proceed to my Spirit Run (I feel justified not doing another sacrificial run because this still is quite accessible with water but could this be a possible culprit?)

This may be contributing to the issue. Copper oxides are removed each time it is cleaned exposing the nice shiny copper for the next run which forms an excess of different oxides because the copper is fully exposed.

Brown / red oxide that builds up actually protects the copper after a while.

Cleaning protocol is a vinegar run followed by a sacrificial ETOH run. Vinegar cleans the copper of manufacturing and fabrication products like oil and flux residue. The sacrificial run allows the copper to get a coating of oxide that will protect the copper.

Think about a reflux column packed with copper scrubbies. I have a 2” column that is 48” tall full of copper scrubbies. If I did a vinegar clean between each use my distillate would be green.

Great input man thank you for your response - im definitely gonna turn to doing a Sacrificial sugar-wash run from now on after any kind of Vinegar cleaning, and would it be fair to say that if the distillate coming out of the condenser isnt any kind of noticeable off color that it would be safe to consume?

[Appelle22]

LOL , yes Popsicle stick's . I moved from NZ to Aussie several decades ago . IMG_8849.jpeg

But yes I would agree that if you are seeing a green flame , it’s most likely due to Copper salts . .
An interesting observation .

You have piqued my interest to test this out myself .

Thats really cool man I hope you're enjoying the weather out there - im from the PNW myself so Aussieland sounds like a far away sweetdream lol, and thanks for the quick response. Am doubly glad that I didn't consume any of that product then because of the information about Copper Sulfate or Copper Acetate from this awesome community. Its sounding like the remedial action to take would be to do my Vinegar run, a quick rinse with water, and then a Sugar Wash cleaning run to ensure the still is ready and prepped for safe production - would love your opinion on if this sound about right to you too?

[Yummyrum]

Yes that sounds like the right approach .

A sacrificial run “ seasons” the copper. I used to not worry about doing it as I figured it was just an extra cleaning regime when I knew that the work was already free of fluxes and contaminants . (I had physically cleaned all internal surfaces )
But the spirit that was ran in un seasoned copper always had a Metallic taste to it . I think you could be into something .It explains a lot to me .

Having said that , when I fill a bath here , the water is really blue due to the copper sulfate they add at the treatment station .

[Dancing4dan]

would it be fair to say that if the distillate coming out of the condenser isnt any kind of noticeable off color that it would be safe to consume?

Ethanol isn’t safe to consume. We except the known risks and negative side effects when we drink it.

To produce the “least harmful” distillate is the goal.

Follow the well established practices and protocols and the resultant product is predictable.

Copper should be rinsed with hot water and allowed to dry immediately after a run. On occasion a wad of rag gets pulled through my Liebig condensers. No cleaning chemicals, no vinegar, no scrubbing.

[Dancing4dan]

But yes I would agree that if you are seeing a green flame , it’s most likely due to copper salts. You have piqued my interest to test this out myself .

Look forward to seeing this. Hope you find the time.