Higgins 4" 3 sieve plate column build

[drmiller100]

Sprinkler drip systems have water regulators for 25 ish psi. Very cheap also.

[higgins]

...
You might add a flow meter for feedback on your needle valve adjustment.
...

zach, that's a great idea. But that one has a minimum rate of 1800 ml/min, which is far greater than my run rate of 300-400 ml/min.

Here is a panel mount adjustable flowmeter with a range of 100-1000 ml/min, which seems perfect for me. $21.50. This will eliminate the needle valve, and I could do it without the regulator if I want to monitor and adjust periodically.

Amazon link

[higgins]

I also found this, thanks to drmiller's suggestion. $6.77

Rainbird 25psi.png (54.78 KiB) Viewed 4357 times

Rainbird 25psi regulator

[zach]

I've used this type of flow meter on an automated chemical feed system. It had an upstream adjustable pressure regulator. With too much pressure you just crack the valve and you go to full scale on the flow meter..

You may find that you want the adjustable regulator that allows easier throttling valve adjustment.

[higgins]

I can put my needle valve between them. Turn it down till flow meter just moves down a bit from max, then use flowmeter valve to regulate flow. Worst case is I'm out a few bucks.

[Wildcats]

Sounds like a plan. Let us know how it goes.

[haggy]

Higgins,

Nice run at 2500 watts and 25% pot ABV - good operation and good data. Your 4 " three plate sieve CM reflux column with the coil deflag condenser is working well. Adding the flowmeter for cooling water flow rate and control will help also.

If you look back at my post here on May 28, the second run printout details are close to what you ran.

Your Next Runs

Re: Plates One and Done vs. Pot Strip Spirit
Post by higgins » Mon May 29, 2023 11:34 am

My 3rd run on the flute was yesterday, and it went pretty smoothly. I'll do cuts today or tomorrow and evaluate the keep. I can always combine and rerun if I don't like the result. A quick on the fly evaluation makes me think that my hearts cut is a bit bigger than with a pot still (about the same volume, but 15-20% higher ABV).

So during my run yesterday I decided that with my next bourbon I will split the batch in two, do a pot still strip/spirit on one half, then a one and done on the flute with the other half for comparison. This is going to go slowly over the next few months, and I'll probably start a new thread.

So,
You are planning a one - and - done run, probably starting with about 10% ABV in the boiler. That will be a different set of operating conditions. I can give you a ball park estimate of what to expect using my plate reflux calculations and deflag RC cooling water flow estimates.

First, since you have 9 % hole area in the sieve plates, there may be an issue with weeping. Here is my curve on weeping and flooding in a 4" sieve plate column. You can see that you should run the boiler power above 2500 watts to prevent weeping. Flooding is not a problem, you only have 3500 watts power.

So, you should be running at maximum power, 3500 watts. More power would be better here. The plates might not be fully loaded at 3500 watts.

Then, since the vapor generated up the column with a 10% ABV in the boiler is less than before, the take-off rate will be lower and cooling water ( cw ) rates may be lower. I ran some estimates of the cw flow needed for different take-of rates. Here are those curves.

These curves were made at 20 C inlet cw temperature and column exit vapor at 89% ABV and 78 C temperature.

Remember, there are many variables that affect the cw flow rate. The strongest ones are the watts power, the pot wash ABV, and the exit vapor ABV. Changes in these variables or not running them at the desired level will change the cw flow needed for a certain take-off rate. Other variables affecting the cw flow rate ( but not as strongly ) are the cw inlet temperature and the exit vapor temperature.

So, it seems like your best operating conditions would about 1.3 L/hr take-off rate and 3500 watts. A higher take-off rate might need a too low and less controllable cw flow rate. Here are details of what to expect:

Good luck in those one-and -done runs. PM me if you have questions on this info.
haggy

[higgins]

haggy,

All I can say is WOW!

I just today started my first mash for my next bourbon. I do plan to split the batch between one-and-done and low wines, but will also add a third split.
I typically get 30-33 gal (113-125 L) of 9.5% beer for stripping from two 26 gal (98 L) mashes (net about 15 -16 gal, 57-60 L) for 3 stripping runs.
This time I'll do a third 26 gallon mash.

The clearest 12 gal (45 L) from the first mash will go thru the flute as a one and done.
The remainder will be added to the beer from mashes 2 & 3 and will be stripped into low wines of about 28% ABV.
Half the low wines will be spirit run thru my flute.
Half the low wines will be spirit run thru my pot still.

I've got a few friends who LOVE to come over and help me with cuts (but I always have the last word ). They've done it 10-12 times now and I'll try to get them to help me on this one as well. Should make for a good comparison.

The data you provided will help me TREMENDOUSLY with the one and done. Thanks much!

Edit: If weeping is a problem I think I can put a few SS washers/discs on the plates to decrease open area. Think that would help?

[haggy]

A 7% open hole area in each plate would be better for a 10% ABV pot charge running at 3500 watts. That would be about 172 5/64 " ( 0.078 " ) diameter holes. It would also be OK for a 30% ABV pot charge running at 2500 watts.

[higgins]

Made the cuts today on my 4 times redistilled bourbon. I was pretty happy with it ... got a full Badmo and 1.5 liters white dog @ 125p. On a typical pot still run I'd keep around 40% of the collection. On this one I kept 67%. That's pretty amazing, and it is full off flavor.

[higgins]

I set up my flute with 2 plates yesterday and added a 1 1/2" washer to each plate to cover some of the holes, leaving around 7% open area.
I ran 12 gallons of bourbon wash thru it for a one and done run. This run produced 114 ounces (3.4 L) @ 62.5% from 12 gallons (45 L) of 8.5% fermented wash in about 5 hours.

I also used my new flow meter to help me monitor and control the RC water flow rate.

FlowMeter.jpg (15.46 KiB) Viewed 4184 times

You can see the ball in the meter hovering around 480 or so. The valve on this meter allows for much finer adjustment than the needle valves I've been using, and the visual of the ball made it real easy to monitor and adjust the RC flow rate without having to guess.

---

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Experiment!!

This run is the beginning of an experiment to help me determine if there are differences between product from running identical wash thru 4 different stilling operations (one and done flute, wash/LW flute, LW flute, LW potty). This will require 4 identical mashes producing 16 gallons cleared fermented wash each, with 4 stripping runs of 12 gallons each and 4 spirit runs as follows:

Run 1: 12 gallons unstripped wash thru 2 plates (complete)
Run 2: 4 gallons unstripped wash + 2 gallons low wines thru 2 plates
Run 3: 5 gallons low wines thru 2 plates
Run 4: 5 gallons low wines thru pot still

Each run will be cut with the help of the same 4 friends for consistency. After the last one is cut, we'll compare the white dog from each. Runs 1, 2, and 4 should produce from 3 to 5 liters of product each, with run 3 almost doubling that.

First I want to see the quality difference between the 4 processes. If one is clearly better than the others then that will be my standard stilling process. If no clear-cut 'winner', or if multiple 'winners', then I'll look at time invested in each one to see which is most 'efficient' - amt of product vs time invested. I also plan to make four 4 liter Badmo barrels for aging them, and we'll revisit them occasionally to see how they progress.

I'll start a new topic on this experiment when I get a little further along. In the meantime, I'd welcome any suggestions/comments on this.

[Wildcats]

I for one will be watching to see your results. Will be interesting to see how it goes and what your comparison is if the difference between runs. Keep us posted.

[Dougmatt]

Sounds like an interesting experiment, and I will be following your progress and notes. Couple of thoughts…. First, you might want to think about defining your success criteria…. “A quality spirit”, is that taste, complexity, or just what you like? What about effort, versus quantity versus quality? For example are you willing to sacrifice a “very good, with less quantity, that was a lot more effort” for “pretty drinkable, with more quantity that was far less effort”.

Second my thought was that the process should always fit the recipe, so the experiment will be great for determining the best process for this one or similar, but maybe not for another spirit of a different type (but you know this obviously )

[Sporacle]

ran 12 gallons of bourbon wash thru it for a one and done run. This run produced 114 ounces (3.4 L) @ 62.5% from 12 gallons (45 L) of 8.5% fermented wash in about 5 hours.

Was 62.5 the finish abv of your keepers or what you proofed down to?

Interested as I did my first 3 plate run this morning and my abv difference from 4 plates to 3 was about 5 points in total and power was down 20%

[GrumbleStill]

Looking forward to seeing how this experiment turns out. Thanks for sharing.

[higgins]

Sounds like an interesting experiment, and I will be following your progress and notes. Couple of thoughts…. First, you might want to think about defining your success criteria…. “A quality spirit”, is that taste, complexity, or just what you like? What about effort, versus quantity versus quality? For example are you willing to sacrifice a “very good, with less quantity, that was a lot more effort” for “pretty drinkable, with more quantity that was far less effort”.

Success is hard to define. All 4 of these runs will be 'successful' in that they will all make booze.
But how 'good' the booze is will be the primary determining factor. Quality is much more important than quantity to me, and Bourbon is a favorite of mine. I prefer to sip it neat (80-100 proof) or with a big cube (cask strength) than to put it in a mixed drink. I want the flavor and complexity to stand out. I want smoothness even when it is high proof. I want to taste the corn sweetness contrasted with the earthy, grainy character of the wheat and malt. Ultimately I want to taste all of this combined with the vanilla/toast/almond/sweetness contributed by the oak during aging.

My last bourbon (strip with potty/spirit with 3 plates) produced 75% more volume of keep than my previous runs on a pot still. That could very well play into the decision as long as quality is not significantly compromised.

A typical run on a potty (3 strips/1 spirit) will take around 16 hours stillin time to net approx 2 gallons at 125p - roughly 8 hours per gallon of keep.
For this run it was about 5.5 hours to net just under a gallon - roughly 6 hours per gallon of keep. Not a huge difference, so effort probably won't play a large part in the evaluation process. Just like it doesn't count when figuring out cost.

So I guess my Success Criteria is:
1. Quality of spirit is probably > 70%
2. Quantity of spirit is probably < 20%
3. Overall time investment is probably < 10%

As mentioned above, I plan to age these separately in Badmo barrels. I may even bring samples to the next Southeast Meetup when it happens

Was 62.5 the finish abv of your keepers or what you proofed down to?

I have not yet cut it, but based on my initial impression I'll keep jars 4 thru 13 (of 17), which is 80 oz @ 89% ABV. 114 oz @ 62.5% is what it will be when proofed down. 89% seems really high for 2 plates ... I was running at 2600W and taking off about 1 LPH for the first 3 jars, 1.5-1.7 LPH for the remaining 14 jars.

My formula for estimating total of collection is pretty good for pot still runs. I strip down to 5% off the spout, and for the spirit run I'll estimate collecting about 90% of the available alcohol in the low wines (proof gallons) at about 60% ABV. Then I divide by 24 and round off to get the amount for each jar.
It was quite a bit off for this flute run - I didn't take into account the higher ABV of the collection, so I got 17 8 oz jars @ 89% instead of 24 8 oz jars at 60%. So my formula will need to be adjusted for flute runs - it should have estimated 6 oz per jar.

I started the corn cooking last night for the 2nd mash. Will head downstairs after my coffee to finish it.

[Swedish Pride]

89% is what I get on two plates as well, gain about 1-2% when I added a third.

How did you find it running on two plates?

I find it's keeps you busy, constantly adjusting the power and water flow to keep the plates loaded.
It's much earlier to run on 3 for me, set and forget type deal

[higgins]

89% is what I get on two plates as well, gain about 1-2% when I added a third.

How did you find it running on two plates?

I find it's keeps you busy, constantly adjusting the power and water flow to keep the plates loaded.
It's much earlier to run on 3 for me, set and forget type deal

It ran pretty smoothly overall. I had expected that the ABV would drop more than that when removing 1 plate.

Remember that my entire prior experience with flutes is 4 runs of the same low wines on 3 plates as noted earlier. I found it tedious to monitor flow rate before, keeping me much more busy repeatedly figuring out flow rate with measuring cups and timers and calculators, adjust and repeat.

I never adjusted power on this run, keeping a constant 2600W after initial heatup, and only adjusted dephleg water flow rate to control reflux ratio. I found that even with a 25psi regulator on my tap the rate would fluctuate a bit over time. For the main part of the run my flow rate was around 380 ml/min, +/- 30. The flow meter made it pretty easy to see changes and adjust accordingly, even by just 10 or 20 ml/min. The plates stayed loaded until the bottom one began fogging and the ABV dropped.

So far I don't regret building the flute.

[Swedish Pride]

Oh, Ive no idea about flow rates and such.
I just look to see if the plates are loaded and I get about the right take off rate and if not adjust accordingly.

Don't think many regrets building a player, it's a great tool.

Sounds like you're on to a winner, well done

[BoilerMaker]

I found the temperature of dephleg coolant output to be really useful. Helps to make small changes to power level and coolant flow. Setting and maintaining the output temp correlates well with take off rate and ABV. From my limited experience. I can recommend a cheap temp display from AMZ if you need/want any ideas. BTW - great thread - lots of good info.

[Saltbush Bill]

Why do you need to know the water flow rate ? Isn't it more important to know the flow rate of the product leaving the still.?

[higgins]

Bill,
I record the time and amt for each jar, so I know my takeoff rate. On this run I was trying for 8 oz (335 ml) per 9 minutes, or 1.56 LPH. The water to the dephleg is what is controlling my reflux ratio & therefore my takeoff rate (keeping power constant), so that is what I'm monitoring during the 'learning to drive' phase that I'm in with this rig. The flow meter shows me numbers, which helps me to understand more.

[shadylane]

Why do you need to know the water flow rate ? Isn't it more important to know the flow rate of the product leaving the still.?

Flow meters have their usage and can be handy for trouble shooting problems.
Especially if Ya like to experiment.
I used to have them on the defleg and PC, until I forgot to drain them during freezing weather.

[Saltbush Bill]

My point is that the two are related/ connected when using a plated column, product flow is controlled by water flow to deflegmator. If plates are flooding or drying up.....or product is leaving the still to quickly or slowly knowing exactly how much water flow you have doesn't help.
Turning the tap one way or the other does.

[OtisT]

Oops. Otis

[higgins]

I wasn't real happy with my CCVM coil when using it as a CM dephleg, so I decided to make it a real dephleg.

I took my RC:

added some 2" copper pipe, SS ferrules, and two 1/4" elbows and turned it into this, which I guess is a dimroth dephleg:

I cut off the RC coil about 2" above the top coil, removed the plate, then soldered on 2 elbows, facing each other.
Then I used the 2 cut off portions thru holes in the copper pipe into the elbows that oppose each other. The tubes bypass each other, like so:

The coil projects about 4" out of the spool, down into the reducing bell above the top plate. Looking up into the bell you see the bottom of the coil:

I did this to minimize the added height - 7".

So I'll try this on my Badmo Tribute rum (after cleaning/sac runs) and see how it goes. If it ends up with too much cooling power I think I can cut the inner and outer coils somewhat shorter and join them with an elbow.

[Wildcats]

Nice work. I'll be interested in hearing back about how this works for you. Thanks for sharing.

[DAD300]

"there is still a unobstructed path to atmosphere."

until either your PC or parrot block for some unexpected event.

If you want to use it for stripping, take the RC all the way out and slap a solid cap on the top of the column.

At 9%, your plates may be too porous for lower power settings. this can be controlled/modified by laying SS washers on the top side of the plate. As they remain loose, they become valve plates and start flapping.

[higgins]

...
At 9%, your plates may be too porous for lower power settings. this can be controlled/modified by laying SS washers on the top side of the plate. As they remain loose, they become valve plates and start flapping.

DAD, I did use washers to reduce my open area to about 7%. I think I saw that idea in one of your posts.

I did a spirit run today of my Badmo tribute rum - it really went quite smoothly.

I used 3 4" sieve plates, 2750W of power, with my new 2" x 8" dimroth dephleg above. It worked great - a flow rate of 750 ml/min gave me 100% reflux ratio, began collecting heads at 500 ml/min (~1.2 LPH), then the rest at 425 ml/min (~2.4 LPH).

I got 28 8oz jars. It held 92% for 3 jars, 91-89% for 20 jars, then 88-87% for the next 3, then 84%, lastly 72% (obvious tails). My current thinking is I'll keep jars 4-26, or 82% of the distillate. I continue to be amazed at the amount of apparent hearts I get with this flute vs my old potty.

[tjsc5f]

I used 3 4" sieve plates, 2750W of power, with my new 2" x 8" dimroth dephleg above. It worked great - a flow rate of 750 ml/min gave me 100% reflux ratio, began collecting heads at 500 ml/min (~1.2 LPH), then the rest at 425 ml/min (~2.4 LPH).

It's been almost a year since your last post here, how's the flute treating you?
Are you still keeping constant power after initial heat up followed by only making dephleg cooling water adjustments throughout the run to control reflux/product flow?