Checking my understanding regarding harvesting yeast

[MooseMan]

Thanks Norm.

I've always known this technique as "Keeving" and learnt it from the old Ashton Cider Project website.

It's just sooooo much hassle to attempt with any consistency on large amounts of cider, so I've never even tried.
That's why I said "Easily" hahaha!

I just do the cheat version, ferment slowly to around 1020, cold crash, rack, cold crash, rack.
This leaves too little yeast to reproduce with too little nutrients.
I have to use cornys and CO2 with this method though as bottles won't carb up.

[Lblamboy]

Just a quick mention about the cider.

I've made a LOT of cider over many years and the slower the ferment the more character you get.
So don't add anything at all to your cider ferments, just yeast, ideally one that has low alcohol tolerance and good flocculation.
I use Notty.

The complete opposite of adding nutrients, if I could find a way to easily rob cider of nitrogen part way through a ferment, I'd use it.

Thanks! I just realized I messed up with the post - All we added to his ciders was some Go-Ferm, but it sounds like you'd bias against using even that? We used an English All yeast that was supposed to be very similar to Nottingham and which was recommended for cider. IDK about its flocking skill, but it is supposed to have good flavor!

I'm also curious re how you manage your ciders in the first few weeks...do you degas or leave them alone? We degassed only like once, during the lag, thinking it would help the yeasties stay aeorobic a little...but we were just guessing whether that was good or not...we were told "low and slow" is best re cider...low ABV and slow fermentation. It's just making me anxious when the airlock is only doing a tiny bubble every 15-20 seconds! LOL

[shadylane]

My 2 cents worth on harvesting yeast.
Trub that's settled to the bottom is mostly spent worn out dead yeast.
Scoop a bucket full off the top of an activity fermenting wash and pour it into a wash that needs started.

[MooseMan]

Thanks! I just realized I messed up with the post - All we added to his ciders was some Go-Ferm, but it sounds like you'd bias against using even that? We used an English All yeast that was supposed to be very similar to Nottingham and which was recommended for cider. IDK about its flocking skill, but it is supposed to have good flavor!

I'm also curious re how you manage your ciders in the first few weeks...do you degas or leave them alone? We degassed only like once, during the lag, thinking it would help the yeasties stay aeorobic a little...but we were just guessing whether that was good or not...we were told "low and slow" is best re cider...low ABV and slow fermentation. It's just making me anxious when the airlock is only doing a tiny bubble every 15-20 seconds! LOL

No I wouldn't add anything to "Help" the ferment at all. Minimum nutrients and low temps keeps it all going nice and slow.
You were advised well generally I'd say.
Don't worry too much about how slow it's going, a cool, acidic environment is not ideal for other bugs to get started.

I never degass, there's just no need.

If you have the ability to cold crash some at around 1020 and carefully transfer it to a fresh vessel, then do the same again a day later, I'd recommend you give it a try, that can really get you a medium sweet cider with heaps of flavour.

Do what you can to keep it cool, big buckets around the fermenters with cold water in, keep them on a stone floor, keep the sun off etc.

[Lblamboy]

I never degass, there's just no need.

If you have the ability to cold crash some at around 1020 and carefully transfer it to a fresh vessel, then do the same again a day later, I'd recommend you give it a try, that can really get you a medium sweet cider with heaps of flavour.

Do what you can to keep it cool, big buckets around the fermenters with cold water in, keep them on a stone floor, keep the sun off etc.

We degassed on Day 1 just to keep it oxygenated during the lag so the yeasties would be replicating that whole time...Knowing it would be a slow ferment, I was fearful that we wouldn't even see it bubbling in the airlock at all, and I knew that would make me fear we had underpitched or stalled, so I wanted to remove any doubt that we had ta least pitched it pretty well! LOL.

I have extra carboys sitting around, and I keep a fair number of juice jugs too...so I should be able to cold crash...it sounds like you're in favor of cold crashing and multipile re-racking early, not running dry and doing K-Meta/Campden tabs then back sweetening? Does that approach primarily change the flavor, as you mention, or does it also reduce the aging time a bit? We aren't sure how long our "Mott's" Cider experiment is gonna take to age, so we did 5 gallons so we can sample as we learn! I also like the idea of maybe being able to carbonate while bottling, which I've never had to do when distilling...and I think we could carbonate using the approach you mentioned, assuming the rackings leave enough yeast to get the job done?

I wrapped ours in a small blanket (in a cool room) to avoid sun exposure, but based on your post, I may need to move it to an empty bathroom where we have marble floors and walls, and it's downright cold!

Appreciate your advice!

[MooseMan]

Yes I much prefer the flavour from the natural fruit sugars, to that flavour you get after using stabilisers and sugar.
Try both and see what you think.

Disclaimer though, I can't drink any sugar free drinks, I can't stand any sweeteners of any kind. They leave a horrid taste to me, that other people don't seem to care about.
I'm quite sensitive to the effects, and the slight flavours, that the stabilisers leave behind so I only ever use them if there's no other alternative, like an acetobacter infection or something.

[Lblamboy]

Yes I much prefer the flavour from the natural fruit sugars, to that flavour you get after using stabilisers and sugar.
Try both and see what you think.

Disclaimer though, I can't drink any sugar free drinks, I can't stand any sweeteners of any kind. They leave a horrid taste to me, that other people don't seem to care about.
I'm quite sensitive to the effects, and the slight flavours, that the stabilisers leave behind so I only ever use them if there's no other alternative, like an acetobacter infection or something.

I feel you on the artificial sweeteners - I can't stand any of them except flavored Truvia in water, and I'm not using that for cider!

We started with Motts, not raw apples, and didn't add any sort of tannins...IDK what kind of apples Motts even uses typically, but it sounds like a lot of people use it - Mine went on deep sale locally, so I stocked up, hoping for the best...with practive maybe we start finding local pressing options?

How long do you typically age your cider before you like it? Do you think stopping while sweet impacts the overall aging time? I'm just guessing, but it seems like maybe the dryer you take it, the more likely the yeast are to create harsher flavors and/or the less of the underlying sugar flavor remains, such that aging needs might be longer?!?

[Lblamboy]

Yes I much prefer the flavour from the natural fruit sugars, to that flavour you get after using stabilisers and sugar.
Try both and see what you think.

Disclaimer though, I can't drink any sugar free drinks, I can't stand any sweeteners of any kind. They leave a horrid taste to me, that other people don't seem to care about.
I'm quite sensitive to the effects, and the slight flavours, that the stabilisers leave behind so I only ever use them if there's no other alternative, like an acetobacter infection or something.

I feel you on the artificial sweeteners - I can't stand any of them except flavored Truvia in water, and I'm not using that for cider!

We started with Motts, not raw apples, and didn't add any sort of tannins...IDK what kind of apples Motts even uses typically, but it sounds like a lot of people use it - Mine went on deep sale locally, so I stocked up, hoping for the best...with practice maybe we start finding local apple pressing options and try some different types of apples?

How long do you typically age your cider before you like it? Do you think stopping while sweet impacts the overall aging time? I'm just guessing, but it seems to me like maybe the dryer you take it, the more likely the yeast create harsher flavors and/or the less underlying apple flavor remains, such that aging needs might be longer?!?

[Steve Broady]

Just a thought..
The discussion of cider is a really interesting one, but I think it might get lost in this thread. It might be better to live it over to its own thread in the appropriate place, so that others can find it and join in.

[shadylane]

I assume the yeast are all throughout the grain, but that gets discarded after pressing.

There's billions of yeast everywhere.
It's in the liquid, spent grain, trub and in the cap.
Take your pick as to where to recover the yeast sample.

[MooseMan]

Just a thought..
The discussion of cider is a really interesting one, but I think it might get lost in this thread. It might be better to live it over to its own thread in the appropriate place, so that others can find it and join in.

Very good point Steve, I did think it was going a bit too far off topic.

Entirely my bad, sorry.

[Yummyrum]

Just a thought..
The discussion of cider is a really interesting one, but I think it might get lost in this thread. It might be better to live it over to its own thread in the appropriate place, so that others can find it and join in.

Very good point Steve, I did think it was going a bit too far off topic.

Entirely my bad, sorry.

No bad .
Those interested , should start own topic in appropriate forum section .