Aquarium Heater Danger

[Salt Must Flow]

Hey...
For you guys using a seedling heating pad... what are you doing with the thermo? It is not supposed to be immersed so are you just capping the mash and following air temp?
I have used a few aquarium heaters in my time and have 2 500W heaters I just bought to get a jump start this mash season. I like the idea of the mat so let's give that a try!

The way I see it, if you're applying direct heat to a fermenter and using a temp controller, you want the temp probe inside the fermenter. This method is likely to be the most accurate & consistent.

You can heat the air inside of a fermentation chamber using a space heater & a temp controller and keep the temp probe in the air, but that doesn't control the temp inside the fermenter exactly. This method works fine for me. I monitor the temp within the fermenter separately and once fermentation starts really taking off it will generate some heat of its own (inside the fermenter) so I know what to set the air temp for. After a few days I'll bump up the air temp a few degrees (as fermentation starts slowing down) so the fermenter's internal temp stays more consistent. I've never tried heating the air while keeping the temp probe inside of a fermenter so I couldn't say whether that would be more beneficial. I felt it could be problematic.

[rgreen2002]

Salty,
When I say "air temp" I mean the temp in the fermenter. So place the thermo in the fermenter, under the cap but above the mash line. This keeps the thermo out of the water as per the manufacturer's recommendation. I've never used a seedling heating pad before so I will be looking for a way to feedback to the thermostat on the pad.

Also... great name and pic!!! Will the real Salty please stand up!

[greggn]

Hey...
For you guys using a seedling heating pad... what are you doing with the thermo?

I "drive" the seedling mat with an Inkbird, using a 12" immersible sensor, so I'm reading the temp at the top of the wash.

[NZChris]

Temperature probes should be reading whatever the element is heating. Doing anything else can result in wild temperature swings, especially if an element is oversized for the task.

If a probe isn't waterproof, make a thermowell for it. A length of suitable sized copper tube, crimped and soldered, works for me.

[rgreen2002]

If a probe isn't waterproof, make a thermowell for it. A length of suitable sized copper tube, crimped and soldered, works for me.

Now THIS is a fine idea! Thanks NZ!

[Salt Must Flow]

Salty,
When I say "air temp" I mean the temp in the fermenter. So place the thermo in the fermenter, under the cap but above the mash line. This keeps the thermo out of the water as per the manufacturer's recommendation. I've never used a seedling heating pad before so I will be looking for a way to feedback to the thermostat on the pad.

Also... great name and pic!!! Will the real Salty please stand up!

I should have been a bit more specific. If you slap a heat pad against a fermenter, what I meant to say is that the temp probe should be submerged inside the fermenter. That will monitor the temp of the fermentation.

What I was trying to get across was, if you directly heat the fermenter the temp probe should be submerged inside the fermenter. If you for instance heat the air inside of a fermentation chamber then the temp probe should be in the air inside the chamber. The temp probe should be monitoring 'what' you are directly heating.

The salty army is legion!

[NZChris]

I have gotten away with a thermocouple taped to the side of a fermenter and covered with foam, the controller set slightly lower to allow for heat loss. That said, I had an independent thermometer reading the temperature of the wash.

Having a backup thermometer in a wash has saved me from trouble a few times.

[Berserker53]

I bought an old waterbed heater that has a temp control and wrapped pad around my ferment barrel and then wrapped it with insulation. Holds temp well as I live in Ohio and it is hard keeping mash at temp. I scorche one with an aquarium heater. Grain got stuck between plastic cage and glass heater. Ruined the mash so I went this route.

[Tōtōchtin]

Would it not be easier to use the aquarium heater to heat a pail of water and pump that thru a copper coil in your mash. That would give you more depth of heat.
Tōtō

[gsugg]

I've tried pretty much all the possibilities. Aquarium heaters directly immersed, same thing in a water bath around the smaller fermenter, etc. I finally bit the bullet and bought a couple of the 10 inch tall 55 gallon drum band heaters from Duda Diesel and had no problems since then. It wasn't cheap, but stopped my worries and it keeps the temps almost perfect.

Greg

Edit: I think I paid $118 for each one of these.

[ThomasBrewer]

I use aquarium heaters in my washes since getting an infection isn't a big deal. I use the built-in thermostat, and that seems to work pretty well. Their intended use is fish, and fish are pretty picky about even a few degrees swing.

For beers, since I don't want to introduce bugs, I wrap the vessel with a seedling mat and use few nylon straps to keep it in good contact with the outside of the fermenter. I use an inkbird to control the seedling mat and the probe is sandwiched between the mat and the vessel. That might cause more cycles as convection mixes the warmer peripheral contents into the bulk mix, but keeps overshoot to a minimum. I also wrap the outside of the vessel and mat with insulation that I've recycled from the meal kit boxes that the wife likes to order.

[theotherstu]

I've always used the 300w ones for beer. I do have a trip switch for it as well as a camera though and I did invest in the slightly more expensive ones which have an earth (the cheap ones don't).

I've been using these for donkeys years and the only problem I've ever had is that when they get old, they sometimes get brittle and the glass breaks.

I'm really tempted to design something a little better for heated jackets. The "bands" are worse than the heaters for creating hot spots. It would be better surely to have a thermal jacket with some method of heating in that spreads across the entire container. They wouldn't need to be particularly powerful, because you'd like to hope they start warm and the jacket would be well insulated.

Sadly, it's quite cold here in the Winter in particular.

[Bradster68]

I've always used the 300w ones for beer. I do have a trip switch for it as well as a camera though and I did invest in the slightly more expensive ones which have an earth (the cheap ones don't).

I've been using these for donkeys years and the only problem I've ever had is that when they get old, they sometimes get brittle and the glass breaks.

I'm really tempted to design something a little better for heated jackets. The "bands" are worse than the heaters for creating hot spots. It would be better surely to have a thermal jacket with some method of heating in that spreads across the entire container. They wouldn't need to be particularly powerful, because you'd like to hope they start warm and the jacket would be well insulated.

Sadly, it's quite cold here in the Winter in particular.

The bands dont need to be tight to the fermenter. Once inside the blanket it'll heat mine when temps fall to 55deg

[theotherstu]

I've always used the 300w ones for beer. I do have a trip switch for it as well as a camera though and I did invest in the slightly more expensive ones which have an earth (the cheap ones don't).

I've been using these for donkeys years and the only problem I've ever had is that when they get old, they sometimes get brittle and the glass breaks.

I'm really tempted to design something a little better for heated jackets. The "bands" are worse than the heaters for creating hot spots. It would be better surely to have a thermal jacket with some method of heating in that spreads across the entire container. They wouldn't need to be particularly powerful, because you'd like to hope they start warm and the jacket would be well insulated.

Sadly, it's quite cold here in the Winter in particular.

The bands dont need to be tight to the fermenter. Once inside the blanket it'll heat mine when temps fall to 55deg

Not sure what that is in Celcius, but I think it's quite cold?

I just wondered if anyone had actually done a jacket that had a heater matrix built-in. I get it would probably be for 30 litre only buckets (8 US gallons)

[venkman]

I'm not sure if this helps anyone but it might. I have two 60 gallon HDPE barrels for fermenting that sit in my garage. When temps outside get down well below freezing, my garage maintains an ambient temp of around 40F as long as I leave the garage doors closed. My setup might not work for you if the ambient temp is colder, but it might.

Each barrel is sitting on a 24" x 24" heavy gym mat floor tile to keep the heating pad off the cold concrete floor, to make it a little more efficient at delivering heat. On each gym mat, I have a 20" x 20 inch 40 watt seedling heat pad. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08KTY3P4F/ The barrels sit directly on top of the heat pads.

Each of those heat pads is plugged into this temperature controller. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08T1TB49Q/

This controller has two temp probes (waterproof) that are suspended in the middle of my ferment. It works a little different than the Inkbird and others, in that both outlets can be used for either cooling or heating. You set an "on" temperature and and "off" temperature for each outlet.

It's been a steady 40f in my garage for the last two weeks. I have a ferment going with US-05 (ideally 60f - 70f) and I have the heaters set to come on below 68f and turn off at 69f. Then I have each barrel wrapped and covered in old blankets. The ferments have barely budged out of that range. They've stayed in the range of 67.5 to 69.2f. Every time the heaters have come on, they stay on for about 20 mins as the temp slowly climbs back above the low limit.

[theotherstu]

I'm not sure if this helps anyone but it might. I have two 60 gallon HDPE barrels for fermenting that sit in my garage. When temps outside get down well below freezing, my garage maintains an ambient temp of around 40F as long as I leave the garage doors closed. My setup might not work for you if the ambient temp is colder, but it might.

That's a novel idea using a seedling mat rather than the usual brewing mat. I'm fairly handy at electronics (although I prefer to work at low voltage, which in this case is probably fine).

Something I spotted on Amazon earlier actually. This is just over £20, or $25ish. Exactly what I was thinking of.
I'm tempted to buy one, put a thermostat inside and control it using a Raspberry Pi.

I genuinely think this could be a viable idea. I might take it apart, reposition the heat pads and restitch it to make it more rounded (remove the arms etc.

Ah, I'm too new to post links. I get that. Google "Atyhao jacket 15 zones". You'll get the idea.

For that kind of money, it could be a proper laugh. I've got a 5v controller already in a different project.

[TwoHedWlf]

I picked up an inkbird(no wifi, unlike my aquarium's one) and heat pad, but I have two fermenters sitting side by side. Last time I checked one fermenter was at 18°, the one with the heat pad was at 23°, both still bubbling away after a week and a half.

I'm debating using a couple aquarium heaters, they're $40ish vs $50+ for the heatpads. but I've looked and can't find any appropriate sized grommets that would keep it airtight. So, I'm leaning towards just another heatpad and wrapping up the fermenters with the sensor between them taped to one.

[Bradster68]

I picked up an inkbird(no wifi, unlike my aquarium's one) and heat pad, but I have two fermenters sitting side by side. Last time I checked one fermenter was at 18°, the one with the heat pad was at 23°, both still bubbling away after a week and a half.

I'm debating using a couple aquarium heaters, they're $40ish vs $50+ for the heatpads. but I've looked and can't find any appropriate sized grommets that would keep it airtight. So, I'm leaning towards just another heatpad and wrapping up the fermenters with the sensor between them taped to one.

I do this often. Splitting one heat pad between 2barrels. But my garage never dips below 60deg. I would steer clear of the aquarium heaters, especially when unattended. It's not worth losing it after all your hard work.

[The Booze Pipe]

I'm not sure if this helps anyone but it might. I have two 60 gallon HDPE barrels for fermenting that sit in my garage. When temps outside get down well below freezing, my garage maintains an ambient temp of around 40F as long as I leave the garage doors closed. My setup might not work for you if the ambient temp is colder, but it might.

Each barrel is sitting on a 24" x 24" heavy gym mat floor tile to keep the heating pad off the cold concrete floor, to make it a little more efficient at delivering heat. On each gym mat, I have a 20" x 20 inch 40 watt seedling heat pad. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08KTY3P4F/ The barrels sit directly on top of the heat pads.

Each of those heat pads is plugged into this temperature controller. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08T1TB49Q/

This controller has two temp probes (waterproof) that are suspended in the middle of my ferment. It works a little different than the Inkbird and others, in that both outlets can be used for either cooling or heating. You set an "on" temperature and and "off" temperature for each outlet.

It's been a steady 40f in my garage for the last two weeks. I have a ferment going with US-05 (ideally 60f - 70f) and I have the heaters set to come on below 68f and turn off at 69f. Then I have each barrel wrapped and covered in old blankets. The ferments have barely budged out of that range. They've stayed in the range of 67.5 to 69.2f. Every time the heaters have come on, they stay on for about 20 mins as the temp slowly climbs back above the low limit.

Is this setup still working for you? It looks like the right idea to use on my 50 gal stainless steel fermenter. Those aquarium heaters worked great with the sugar sour mashes I did, never had an issue, always kept the ferment at a good temp to finish dry. But on the all-grain it really didn’t keep it at a proper temp throughout.

[Reefer1]

Holy Moley, your lucky the barn didn't burn down, i use a aquarium heater attached to a PID in my plastic fermentation bucket,
i have a brewing heating belt but there is no thermostat on it so it's on all the time, i may try it connected to my PID. it will be safer i think.
Thanks for the warning, dude.

[venkman]

Is this setup still working for you? It looks like the right idea to use on my 50 gal stainless steel fermenter. Those aquarium heaters worked great with the sugar sour mashes I did, never had an issue, always kept the ferment at a good temp to finish dry. But on the all-grain it really didn’t keep it at a proper temp throughout.

It is working again now with my current ferment, but I had one going in early-February during a cold snap that was not keeping up. The ambient temp in the garage was staying between 28f and 33f during that time and I think that the 40watt heaters were always on, only keeping the ferment temp up in 58f - 60f range. Within the tolerance of the yeast, but it was working SLOW.

I'm thinking of getting a silicone barrel heater band like this next winter:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B1JCPXDP/
I figure I can run it with the built in thermostat dial on high then regulate with the controller. But it's 1200w so I can only regulate one with my controller which is rated 1920w.

[The Booze Pipe]

Is this setup still working for you? It looks like the right idea to use on my 50 gal stainless steel fermenter. Those aquarium heaters worked great with the sugar sour mashes I did, never had an issue, always kept the ferment at a good temp to finish dry. But on the all-grain it really didn’t keep it at a proper temp throughout.

It is working again now with my current ferment, but I had one going in early-February during a cold snap that was not keeping up. The ambient temp in the garage was staying between 28f and 33f during that time and I think that the 40watt heaters were always on, only keeping the ferment temp up in 58f - 60f range. Within the tolerance of the yeast, but it was working SLOW.

I'm thinking of getting a silicone barrel heater band like this next winter:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B1JCPXDP/
I figure I can run it with the built in thermostat dial on high then regulate with the controller. But it's 1200w so I can only regulate one with my controller which is rated 1920w.

1200W is quite a bit of power. I would be careful putting that on a plastic drum! I ferment in a large 50 gal stainless steel pot, I wonder if I could heat water with that thing

I think I'll go with your original setup for now. we had a similar cold snap here, but the power was out the whole time too. Really if you had that pad with a 100-150W that would be just right.

[NZChris]

But it's 1200w so I can only regulate one with my controller which is rated 1920w.

My 20 gallon can currently has 90W under it and that isn't always on because the can is insulated and the yeast is still putting out heat.

[venkman]

Well, you got me thinking and wanting to experiment. Knowing I was going to buy this thing anyway eventually, I got one.

Findings: With a controller and the inbuilt thermostat working in tandem, it works GREAT!

With 1200w, it can get pretty darn hot. TOO hot for a HDPE barrel I'd say. It has an inbuilt thermostat with its own thermocouple to measure the surface temp of the heating band/barrel. This might translate well to total contents temp in a steel barrel at hotter temperatures, but seems like a big problem with a large mass to be heated in a plastic drum.

However, with the thermostat turned down to a reasonable temperature (the dial is in Celsius, so 50c or 122f), it cycles itself on and off even when supplied continuous power.

That way the surface never gets too crazy hot and the 1200w capability is basically being pulsed on and off periodically even when the controller is supplying power.

Then, what really makes this work is the controller. It's set with a range of 69f to 71f, with a thermocouple probe suspended in the center of the fermenting liquid. When the center mass of the ferment reaches 71f, the controller kills power and doesn't supply the heater band anything at all until the temp falls back below 69f.

In this picture, only using outlet 1. The temp reached 71f and is currently falling back down. No power supplied until it falls below 69f. You can notice the second outlet with the same settings is powered up because the probe is in another barrel that's holding its own at 67f without any heater.

Since putting this thing on and wrapping the whole setup in a fleece blanket, the fermentation temp has been very consistently held between 69 and 71f

[fiery creations]

What brand is that? Link?

[NZChris]

What brand is that? Link?

It looks like a very expensive, overkill, solution to a simple problem.

You only have to provide enough Watts to replace what you let escape through your insulation, or lack of insulation. I use plenty of insulation, old sleeping bags, broken down refrigerators, etc., and would only use over 100W in the middle of a cold winter. My temperature controllers are a few dollars each online.

[The Booze Pipe]

That Pymeter works really well. I bought one and a 40w seed mat and it kept my 45 gallon ferment 84-85f in moderate spring weather. That band is for sure overkill at 1200w. But I'll probably get one if I can't find something similar in the 100w range.

What I'm wondering about is using that 1200 watts for mashing/geletinizing corn? Dump in corn meal and boiling water into stainless fermenter, then crank that band up for several hours...

[Oystercracker123]

I’m looking at the silicone heat band venkman posted, it shows 5” in width. There is also a 10” wide version showing the same wattage, so in my mind a lower watt density per unit of surface area. I’m unsure if this is a typo and it’s effectively two of the 5” units attached, or if it’s accurate and it actually has the lower watt density. I wondering if anyone has tried the wider version, or if venkman has had any concerns with 1200w of heat localized circumferentially over the 5” footprint and if spreading the heat over a greater area might be advantageous.

[venkman]

What I'm wondering about is using that 1200 watts for mashing/geletinizing corn? Dump in corn meal and boiling water into stainless fermenter, then crank that band up for several hours...

I'm currently looking for a good deal on a stainless drum, so I can try just that! It's definitely overkill, but being set low and mediated by the Pymeter, it works a charm. I wouldn't buy a rig like this JUST to maintain ferment temps though, for anyone else looking. The engineering part of my brain has some other ideas..

There is also a 10” wide version showing the same wattage, so in my mind a lower watt density per unit of surface area.

For that very reason, I'd definitely have gotten a 10" band if I had found one when I was looking that was comparable in price. I picked up the 5" one for $38. For what I'm using it for, the amount of heat that is going onto the surface area of the fermenter isn't a concerning amount but lower watt density over a larger area would still be more efficient.

[The Booze Pipe]

What I'm wondering about is using that 1200 watts for mashing/geletinizing corn? Dump in corn meal and boiling water into stainless fermenter, then crank that band up for several hours...

I'm currently looking for a good deal on a stainless drum, so I can try just that! It's definitely overkill, but being set low and mediated by the Pymeter, it works a charm. I wouldn't buy a rig like this JUST to maintain ferment temps though, for anyone else looking. The engineering part of my brain has some other ideas..

I'll need something come next winter. That 40 watt mat probably won't cut it, even with it bundled up. I'm not much of an engineer, so I'm curious to see what you come up with!