The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

[Deplorable]

The most recent one I filled, (3266) has been giving me fits trying to get it to seal between two of the staves, and I'm beginning to wonder if there was any wax at all between them. I think I might have it about as good as it is going to get after a few rounds of working bees wax into the seam. It's been full a couple of weeks, today was one of the warmest days since I filled it and its just got a few beads of dew along the seam (hoping it sugars up and seals), but last Thursday as I was leaving for work, I looked over at it on the work bench and it had wept out close to a shot of spirits.
When I first filled it, it leaked bad at the corner of the seam between two staves and the can. A few drops of hot wax, and a massage with a flat screwdriver fixed that leak. Then as the weather began to warm up it started leaking along the entire joint.

[NormandieStill]

OtisT raised a valid point regarding surface area. It’s often mentioned that the surface area of a Badmo barrel is about 50% that of a 53-gallon barrel, but this simplifies the situation. It's important to note that 53-gallon barrels are rarely filled to capacity. Given the circular shape of the barrel, the surface-to-volume ratio decreases significantly as the angel's share is taken into account. After the first year of aging, the discrepancy in surface area between the two types of barrels diminishes considerably. This adjustment in surface area is something that many oak barrel alternatives don't consider in their calculations.

I don't recall where it was posted but there was an amazing graph of that effect that badmotivator (IIRC) posted a good long while ago showing percentage fill against surface area to volume ratio.

Edit: I'm an idiot! It was on the first page!

[ChristopherC]

I don't recall where it was posted but there was an amazing graph of that effect that badmotivator (IIRC) posted a good long while ago showing percentage fill against surface area to volume ratio.

Edit: I'm an idiot! It was on the first page!

I regret not having the chance to ask him how he calculated his figures. Using the measurements I have, I'm finding a much lower surface area to volume ratio (SA/V). He reported an SA/V of 51 sqin/gal for his 8qt pots, whereas I'm measuring an SA/V closer to 36 sqin/gal.

For comparison, a full 55-gallon wine barrel typically has an SA/V of about 51 sqin/gal, and a full 132-gallon puncheon usually has an SA/V around 39 sqin/gal. He often mentioned that his barrels were closer to the SA/V of a puncheon.

I suppose the truth is somewhere in between. Ben's design features a lower SA/V compared to other small barrels, and that's a key element of what makes his design so effective. It's an honor to continue his legacy and assist others in building their first barrels too. Ben's barrels have had an astonishing impact on my life, and I hope his legacy continues to positively influence everyone who tries their hand at it.

Cheers!

[ChristopherC]

The most recent one I filled, (3266) has been giving me fits trying to get it to seal between two of the staves, and I'm beginning to wonder if there was any wax at all between them. I think I might have it about as good as it is going to get after a few rounds of working bees wax into the seam. It's been full a couple of weeks, today was one of the warmest days since I filled it and its just got a few beads of dew along the seam (hoping it sugars up and seals), but last Thursday as I was leaving for work, I looked over at it on the work bench and it had wept out close to a shot of spirits.
When I first filled it, it leaked bad at the corner of the seam between two staves and the can. A few drops of hot wax, and a massage with a flat screwdriver fixed that leak. Then as the weather began to warm up it started leaking along the entire joint.

Howdy, It sounds like the seasonal temperature fluctuations are affecting your barrel, which is not uncommon during the spring warm-up. I've noticed similar issues with micro leaks in barrels around this time of year, both here and during the spring warm-up in the southern hemisphere last October/November.

One strategy to manage this is to periodically release any built-up pressure inside the barrel. You can do this by opening the spigot briefly to let out excess pressure, especially on warmer days. Try to do this regularly over the next few weeks as the temperatures begin to stabilize. Currently, we're experiencing wide temperature swings over here from 30-degree nights to 75-degree days.

Another option is to move the barrels to a more controlled environment, like indoors or into a basement, to help stabilize the internal pressure.

If you continue to experience issues, please don't hesitate to reach out to me via email.

[andystanton74]

Since my first badmo barrel (#249) I have been propping them up from the back so all the liquid can come into contact with the barrel head. In my mind this would mean the s/v would go up as the amount of barrel head surface area in contact with the liquid stays the same as the volume decreases with the angels share. This would mean the s/v would go up with time if stored in this way right? Am I think about that correctly?

[NormandieStill]

Since my first badmo barrel (#249) I have been propping them up from the back so all the liquid can come into contact with the barrel head. In my mind this would mean the s/v would go up as the amount of barrel head surface area in contact with the liquid stays the same as the volume decreases with the angels share. This would mean the s/v would go up with time if stored in this way right? Am I think about that correctly?

Yep. The surface area in contact will remain the same regardless of drunken angels (up to a point, depending on the angle that you tip to), while the volume will drop.

[ChristopherC]

Since my first badmo barrel (#249) I have been propping them up from the back so all the liquid can come into contact with the barrel head. In my mind this would mean the s/v would go up as the amount of barrel head surface area in contact with the liquid stays the same as the volume decreases with the angels share. This would mean the s/v would go up with time if stored in this way right? Am I think about that correctly?

Yes, you're correct. If the surface area remains constant but the volume decreases, such as when underfilling and tilting the barrel, the SA/V would increase.

I haven't tested this myself, but I believe that our ratios are close enough that everything will balance out eventually. Operating with a lower ratio provides a buffer against the spirit becoming over-oaked, which I find to be suitable.

[andystanton74]

I have been playing around with bung alternatives. I soldered in a stainless steel coupling using a very cool little device from brew hardware. It's a dimpling die that also pushes the coupling I into the can. I don't have the skills to weld so this seems like a great alternative if anyone is looking to do something like this. It's also pretty cheap to do it. Here is the link.

https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/ ... l12npt.htm

[Deplorable]

I have been playing around with bung alternatives. I soldered in a stainless steel coupling using a very cool little device from brew hardware. It's a dimpling die that also pushes the coupling I into the can. I don't have the skills to weld so this seems like a great alternative if anyone is looking to do something like this. It's also pretty cheap to do it. Here is the link.

https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/ ... l12npt.htm

Good idea, but consider a larger diameter (I.D.) so you can add additional wood supplements as for the 2nd use and beyond.

[Deplorable]

The most recent one I filled, (3266) has been giving me fits trying to get it to seal between two of the staves, and I'm beginning to wonder if there was any wax at all between them. I think I might have it about as good as it is going to get after a few rounds of working bees wax into the seam. It's been full a couple of weeks, today was one of the warmest days since I filled it and its just got a few beads of dew along the seam (hoping it sugars up and seals), but last Thursday as I was leaving for work, I looked over at it on the work bench and it had wept out close to a shot of spirits.
When I first filled it, it leaked bad at the corner of the seam between two staves and the can. A few drops of hot wax, and a massage with a flat screwdriver fixed that leak. Then as the weather began to warm up it started leaking along the entire joint.

Howdy, It sounds like the seasonal temperature fluctuations are affecting your barrel, which is not uncommon during the spring warm-up. I've noticed similar issues with micro leaks in barrels around this time of year, both here and during the spring warm-up in the southern hemisphere last October/November.

One strategy to manage this is to periodically release any built-up pressure inside the barrel. You can do this by opening the spigot briefly to let out excess pressure, especially on warmer days. Try to do this regularly over the next few weeks as the temperatures begin to stabilize. Currently, we're experiencing wide temperature swings over here from 30-degree nights to 75-degree days.

Another option is to move the barrels to a more controlled environment, like indoors or into a basement, to help stabilize the internal pressure.

If you continue to experience issues, please don't hesitate to reach out to me via email.

I want to do a follow up to this post to give props to Christopher's customer service. We've been in email contact since I made that post and discussed ways to correct this leak.
Upon exhausting all efforts, He promptly shipped out a replacement, and I returned this barrel for him to see what's causing the persistent leak and how he can ensure that nobody else has a similar experience. I can't speak highly enough of Christopher and what he is doing to carry on the business. Support small businesses every opportunity you can.

[andystanton74]

For those that use a T&G type connection to join the staves, what type of bit works best? Looks like there are several router but patterns out there that could maybe work.

[Bottles]

I've used a 9mm flute bit. To cut the groove. Then alter cutter height to make the tongue. Really fidley and requires a router bench/table and you are sure the cutter doesn't move in the collet.
I usually make one head at a time. So can tolerate the caffeine of set up. Also helps I've got access to reasonable woodwork shop.
I'm on barrel 4. Never had an issue of leaks between boards. Only at edges where head was to small or to tight , which blew up stainless pot when soaking head in water after insertion. Sounded like a gunshot! Should have realized using large g clamps to force head in was toomuch! Lesson learned.
Andrew

[andystanton74]

I've used a 9mm flute bit. To cut the groove. Then alter cutter height to make the tongue. Really fidley and requires a router bench/table and you are sure the cutter doesn't move in the collet.
I usually make one head at a time. So can tolerate the caffeine of set up. Also helps I've got access to reasonable woodwork shop.
I'm on barrel 4. Never had an issue of leaks between boards. Only at edges where head was to small or to tight , which blew up stainless pot when soaking head in water after insertion. Sounded like a gunshot! Should have realized using large g clamps to force head in was toomuch! Lesson learned.
Andrew

Lol wow! I'm working on building a simple router table. I currently use dowels which works fine but want to explore the T&G route. Have you tried the tongue and groove bits for the router? Seems like that might be a little easier.

[Bottles]

I've not tried tounge and groove router sets. But that's cause I'm cheap. If I was doing lots of barrels I'd look at probably making two router set ups and ensuring there accuracy. Changing out bits would work just needing accurate alignment.
Andrew

[OtisT]

For those that use a T&G type connection to join the staves, what type of bit works best? Looks like there are several router but patterns out there that could maybe work.

This is the profile of T&G that I use. Very simple and clean. It was recommended to me that I consider a profile that will better lock the boards together when working, but I “glue” my staves together with beeswax and don’t really have any issues keeping things together while doing the circle shape cut and sand.

I use a shaper table which is a big improvement over a router table. Among other factors, it is relatively easy to get the depth (alignment) right for a smooth face, it is very consistent when making lots of parts, and I feel it’s much safer to use. Routers scare me a little. I would use a dowel before trying to use a hand held router for this.

Years ago I took a community college woodworking class just to have access to some big pieces of equipment I was lacking. The class was cheep and there is free help with the setup. Well worth looking into if you don’t have the tools, bits, or skill.

I’ve successfully made heads with biscuits and dowels too. They all work if you have good woodworking skills, know how to make a jig, take your time and use plenty of test boards to get your jigs set up properly.

[Ostefingre]

Disclaimer! I have only made two barrels up to now.
But i have had great succes using grooves and a "loose tongue", in essence an elongated biscuit joint. I stopped just shy of the ends, as I figured it would minimise potential sources for leaks.
I used a ball bearing supported groove bit in a router, for the two parts of the head. The biscuit was planned to thickness, and wittled to fit in the two slots. Everything was then set in with beeswax.

[andystanton74]

Disclaimer! I have only made two barrels up to now.
But i have had great succes using grooves and a "loose tongue", in essence an elongated biscuit joint. I stopped just shy of the ends, as I figured it would minimise potential sources for leaks.
I used a ball bearing supported groove bit in a router, for the two parts of the head. The biscuit was planned to thickness, and wittled to fit in the two slots. Everything was then set in with beeswax.

Wow that's cool! How exactly did you make the biscuit part? How deep is that groove?

[Ostefingre]

The biscuit is a piece of the same wood as the lids, that i thickness planed, to match the thickness of the groove.
The groove is just shy of 13 mm deep in each part of the lid, so the biscuit is probably 24 mm wide.

[MooseMan]

The biscuit is a piece of the same wood as the lids, that i thickness planed, to match the thickness of the groove.
The groove is just shy of 13 mm deep in each part of the lid, so the biscuit is probably 24 mm wide.

Nice work there.

[Beerswimmer]

Just filled my 3rd one with corn & oat bourbon. Smelled amazing going in!

[Steve Broady]

BadMo #219, filled with my “scotch” and doing nice things to it. I needed a glass of it tonight, after a fairly difficult day fighting all the things that can go wrong in the course of normal life.

Thank you, Ben. This one’s for you.

[Deplorable]

IMG_5537.jpeg
BadMo #219, filled with my “scotch” and doing nice things to it. I needed a glass of it tonight, after a fairly difficult day fighting all the things that can go wrong in the course of normal life.

Thank you, Ben. This one’s for you.

Jeez! 2nd fill already? #238 is still full of bourbon new make from 23 February, 2022. I've only had a few drams out of it.

[Steve Broady]

Jeez! 2nd fill already? #238 is still full of bourbon new make from 23 February, 2022. I've only had a few drams out of it.

Yeah, I had some UJSSM in there first, but I made this stuff and felt that it would be a better use of the barrel. So I pulled the UJSSM and kept it for sipping when I wasn’t in the mood for anything better, and let the BadMo work its magic. This is the first real drink I’ve had out of it in well over a year. I mostly leave them alone, but every now and then they just look too tempting.

[higgins]

I had posted this in a different thread, but since it is about Bain-Marie Oak Barrels I figured I'd create it here, too.

This is the video clip about Dettling Distillery in Alabama that Vlagavulvin posted:


At the 10:50 minute mark it shows how they seal their barrels by spraying water on the outside, with him saying that if you fill them with water to swell them, it comes out brown, obviously taking barrel character with it.

That makes a lot of sense to me. I am going to try sealing a BMOB by setting it on its end and just pouring water on the outside face. I've been making my BMOBs one or two at a time when I have something ready to put in them. But if they will seal this way I could make a years worth (4-6) at one time and just set them on a shelf waiting to be filled. I would check them regularly and keep them wet on the outside, also keeping an eye out for any mold growth.

But this bypasses the 'leak test', so when I fill them I will need to be prepared to fix some leaks.

[Beefer]

I was fixing a leak last night on my latest badmo clone and an idea started bubbling in my head. I had a look and can't see any mention of it, apologies if it's already been covered, is there any reason we couldn't cut channels with the grain before toast/char to adjust the surface area of our barrels to match any commercial size ratio? I was thinking a router, but a table saw should be able to get it done as well. I'm happy with the slow progress of my standard barrels, but was thinking of making some "faster" barrels for some whiskey sugarheads I'll be cranking out with this years whiskey batches.

[Twisted Brick]

I was fixing a leak last night on my latest badmo clone and an idea started bubbling in my head. I had a look and can't see any mention of it, apologies if it's already been covered, is there any reason we couldn't cut channels with the grain before toast/char to adjust the surface area of our barrels to match any commercial size ratio? I was thinking a router, but a table saw should be able to get it done as well. I'm happy with the slow progress of my standard barrels, but was thinking of making some "faster" barrels for some whiskey sugarheads I'll be cranking out with this years whiskey batches.

I was just thinking about this the other day. Cut out almost all of the center/bottom of your stainless vessel but leave a perimeter ~3/4" 'ring' of the vessel's actual bottom. Fit, press and pin into the bottom a second head with wood/toast/char of your choosing. Should be a bit faster than a single head I think, but might be vulnerable to thirsty angels. It would also be more work to bevel (contour?) the head to fit the stainless but I bet it wouldn't take that long.

I like your router idea but for the material it removes. Might work well if an add or replace item.

[Beefer]

I see where you are going brick - I was initially playing with the idea of sourcing stainless pipe sections to make dual ended barrels, but the local Kmart sells stainless 7.5 litre pots for $10, so I didn't follow that up. I was thinking more along the lines of increasing the surface area of a couple of the single heads by cutting "grooves" inline with the grain before toasting and charring. Depending on how many, how deep and wide the channels are you should be able to dial in the surface area to whatever barrel profile you want.
I see the grooves on the pic run 90degrees to the staves - I'd imagine that this also increases the amount of end grain exposed - which I always thought was to be avoided? Might be a myth I picked up?
I think its worth doing a side by side comparison - same size, same oak, same sugarhead but double the surface area with the router on one before giving them the same toast and char. I'd best get off my arse and get them made so I can report back

[Twisted Brick]

Do it. Looking forward to your results in a year.

[grimlock]

I had posted this in a different thread, but since it is about Bain-Marie Oak Barrels I figured I'd create it here, too.

This is the video clip about Dettling Distillery in Alabama that Vlagavulvin posted:


At the 10:50 minute mark it shows how they seal their barrels by spraying water on the outside, with him saying that if you fill them with water to swell them, it comes out brown, obviously taking barrel character with it.

That makes a lot of sense to me. I am going to try sealing a BMOB by setting it on its end and just pouring water on the outside face. I've been making my BMOBs one or two at a time when I have something ready to put in them. But if they will seal this way I could make a years worth (4-6) at one time and just set them on a shelf waiting to be filled. I would check them regularly and keep them wet on the outside, also keeping an eye out for any mold growth.

But this bypasses the 'leak test', so when I fill them I will need to be prepared to fix some leaks.

This is an excellent share, thank you.
The cost of even importing a Badmo limits that as an option for me so I have my american white oak thats ready for charing, cutting, making up a barrel end and giving one a try. I am currently running Honey Bear Bourbon from Shineons recipe through stripping runs to have enough to make a good spirit run.

I am now conflicted on the sealing / leak check. I think I should have enough spirit to fill the two bain marie inserts I have, this feels like a chance to run one from an filled soak,seal leak test and one from the outside ... and because, well its only jerking about if you do not write it down, at this point its Science ! I shall have to track and document the experiment now rather than just my overall build process.

As Shineon said its so good you will want to lap from the spout, the aromas from the beer alone have been mouth watering, and still stripping so ... angels share here we come.

I love this community.

[Homebrewer11777]

been searching all over with no luck. Does anyone have the dimensions on the new 19 liter Badmo barrels? How does surface area to volume compare to the legacy barrels? I'm guessing lower but would like to see the math...