Oak and whiskey

[Goose]

I recently used Jimbo's recipe to make up 8l (2.1 gals or 8.45 quarts) of 72% single malt spirit in one big jar. His oak dosage suggested 1 stick of 1 x 1 x 5 per quart. I used that surface area to calculate how many staves (see post above) I should use for an equivalent surface area, then added it to the jar after a 2 hour soak in water.

I was amazed at how quickly the color was extracted from the staves which floated atop initially. I looked the next morning and about half had sunk to the bottom, on looking a week later all had sunk.

Anyway the colour now seems pretty intense though I cant at this stage detect much oak flavour but it has been just a week. I am a bit concerned about the colour intensity though I am aware it'll be diluted to 40-45% when its ready. Does this look normal ? I know that every wood is different and my first thought was that I'd overdosed on wood..... but as mentioned I cant really taste it yet.

I suppose I could yank some out, and if its too much blend it down for the next batch?

[EricTheRed]

Looks perfectly fine
I've about 50 Litres @ 62% ABV in 5 x 13L glass carboys with oak sticks - and some i cannot see through unless i put a light behind it.
But once bottled at 43-45% - it is the perfect colour - a rich redish amber bottle of mother's milk!

[Saltbush Bill]

Looks fine to me.......leave it be for a few months and have a taste..... then leave it some more.
Also you could take a tiny sample to keep now......another in 6 months.....another in a year, then compere all three......decide what you like then......I think I already know what that will be.

[Twisted Brick]

I think you're fine, Goose. Keep in mind that light (artificial as well as sunlight at different times of the day) all have different color temperatures that affect the perception of what it is bouncing off and through. Today's pic may look different repeated at night (darker) or tomorrow during the morning (lighter). The total amount of light coming through the spirit also affects the color. Put a few drams in a glen cairn glass and you may see the difference.

Just curious: how did you decide on the 72% aging proof and what is your target drinking strength? Higher proofs extract a different set of elements from oak that may benefit flavor-wise from partial-proofing before aging than after aging.

[Goose]

Thanks lads, the feedback and tips are much appreciated.

Brick, a good question on the choice of proof, the 72% was what the cuts I made blended up to be. Drinking strength I'll decide when its time to bottle but will likely be in the 42-45% range.

I'm aware that ageing proof will extract differently depending on the kind of wood (and end grain proportion) but I had to start somewhere given I'd not used these staves before. I could dial down a but for the next run and see the difference, I've 5 more of these big jars to fill in time. Is 72% too much?

[bilgriss]

If you mean too much while on wood, I'd say yes. Generally, the target range is 55% to 65% in barrels or with staves. Lower proof will tend to extract more sweetness and higher proof gets more oak, pretty fast. There are no absolutely static rules in this discussion of course, it's all your preference. But I'd expect aging on wood at 72% to get a bit phenolic and too oaky pretty fast. The good news is you can always blend an over-oaked test into something else to dilute.
YMMV

[bilgriss]

Maybe astringent is a better description than phenolic...

[BFBourbonBuddy]

Hey Goose, I was just wondering how you prepped your wood sticks? Did you toast and char or just char? The color is off to a great start. I wouldn't be too worried about over-darkening unless the sensory starts to be affected. Also, I'm going to start working on different dosage amounts (g/mL) as I am about to mature a 100% malt and was also wondering what dosage would give the right balance of color and sensory. I'd agree with bilgriss that 72% is quite high for fill proof and maybe you could run some tests with your next batch with the same volumes of liquid and wood at different proofs to see where you like to start your aging.

[Twisted Brick]

Thanks lads, the feedback and tips are much appreciated.

Brick, a good question on the choice of proof, the 72% was what the cuts I made blended up to be. Drinking strength I'll decide when its time to bottle but will likely be in the 42-45% range.

I'm aware that ageing proof will extract differently depending on the kind of wood (and end grain proportion) but I had to start somewhere given I'd not used these staves before. I could dial down a but for the next run and see the difference, I've 5 more of these big jars to fill in time. Is 72% too much?

I wanted to retrieve some specifics from my notes but was couldn't find 'em. The over-simplified explanation is that more tannins are extracted at higher entry proofs and more sugars are extracted at lower entry proofs. I know oak sticks don't behave exactly like a barrel does, but I figure close enough.

As distillers, we try to end up with a newmake distillate closer to bottling strength that ideally would require no flavor-robbing proofing water. (There are a number of HD threads on how to accomplish this). There is also a proofing calculator on the HD calcs page that will tell you exactly how much more water you'll need to proof down a spirit at 72% versus 60%. Many distillers feel that adding water at barrel entry is preferable than adding water at bottling. Not only is there less water needed to proof down at bottling, the presence of (water-born) oxygen plays a role inside the barrel. The issue of saponification when proofing down is an entirely different subject reserved for later.

I filled a 5gal barrel with 62.5% bourbon which increased to 65% over the course of 2 years. Next time I will fill closer to 58%, maybe even 55%, knowing that the ABV will increase in my hot, dry weather. I bottled what was left in the barrel at barrel proof and now add just enough water when sipping to match my mood. I confess that 45-47% use to be my preferred drinking strength, but lately it is closer to 50%. The flavor and effect at this strength is hard to beat.

Anyway, here some articles I retrieved from my archives.

http://bourbonr.com/blog/nerdy-whiskey- ... try-proof/

https://www.fredminnick.com/2021/06/25/ ... ry-proofs/

HTH,

Twisted

[Goose]

Hey Goose, I was just wondering how you prepped your wood sticks? Did you toast and char or just char? The color is off to a great start. I wouldn't be too worried about over-darkening unless the sensory starts to be affected. Also, I'm going to start working on different dosage amounts (g/mL) as I am about to mature a 100% malt and was also wondering what dosage would give the right balance of color and sensory. I'd agree with bilgriss that 72% is quite high for fill proof and maybe you could run some tests with your next batch with the same volumes of liquid and wood at different proofs to see where you like to start your aging.

Yo BB, according to the manufacturer these staves are kilned (toasted) from France (a brand called Oenofrance) that specialise in supplying materials to the global wine and spirit industry. I chose these because they were all I could find online, not for the brand but they were freaking expensive. I live in the tropics so oak trees don't grow anywhere close . But I have 2kg now (1 kg of light and another kg of dark which I believe results from different kiln times) and given the dosage range I've researched here that amount should go a long way. I decided not to char at all... at least for first couple of tries.

Based on advice from you and Brick, I decided to dilute down to 65% which I hope should be ok given it only been down a week. I did steal a taste, only a slight woody hint so far bit nothing untoward that I can detect.

For the batch above I dosed at 150 cm2/litre which was based on Jimbo's usage of a 5"x1"x1" stick per quart, but further reading here suggests 95 cm2/litre is optimal but I do realise there are other variables at play here, including ageing strength. Next batch, going down today I will reduce to 100 cm2/litre and see how it goes.

[jonnys_spirit]

In my shed - to make meaningful comparisons I’ll split the batch and half or double the treatment between the two batches.

Ultimately I aim to solera the process (which averages the various factors over time) if I can keep the supply up and I can still taste and test the different phases of the solera and make informed decisions on newmake cuts, pre-oak, fruit wood, or perhaps proof.

Cheers,
J

[vernue]

Hi all,

This thread has been dead for a while, but I'd like to return to a topic discussed earlier, because there was something I did not understand.

I made a single malt Islay style - 100% peated malt - as I often do, and I bottled it with about half the wood I usually do (approx 1"x1"x5" is my usual portion per liter). I put in less wood for a longer more mellow aging. After three months, the oakiness was too strong, and i removed the wood from all of my bottles.

Now I read that this TMO (too much oak) is just a phase it was going through, like a rocky childhood. I assume a good measure the tannins are already in the juice - will they mellow by themselves. I know there is also a long-running discussion about whether aging continues after bottling - and I always thought it reasonable, seeings how the whiskey has already absorbed much from the wood, and it should keep aging even in the bottle. Maybe.

So should i gird my loins and return the sticks to the bottles, and hope that time will cure all ills, or should i leave the sticks out and figure that the whiskey will mellow even without the sticks?

The sticks were of french oak used wine barrel, cut into fingers and toasted at 210 C for 4 hours, char #3 (I guess), used once before for bourbon.

[vernue]

Um, I attribute the fast oaking to the unseasonably hot summer this year.

[VLAGAVULVIN]

Now I read that this TMO (too much oak) is just a phase it was going through, like a rocky childhood. I assume a good measure the tannins are already in the juice - will they mellow by themselves. I know there is also a long-running discussion about whether aging continues after bottling - and I always thought it reasonable, seeings how the whiskey has already absorbed much from the wood, and it should keep aging even in the bottle. Maybe.

So should i gird my loins and return the sticks to the bottles, and hope that time will cure all ills, or should i leave the sticks out and figure that the whiskey will mellow even without the sticks?

The sticks were of french oak used wine barrel, cut into fingers and toasted at 210 C for 4 hours, char #3 (I guess), used once before for bourbon.

Every TMO gets more mellow sooner or later. There remains hope that this will happen in our lifetime Force some air through your infusion using an aquarium compressor or syringe. Do it twice or thrice within a week.

A bit strange for the Islay's that French wine oak was used (Q.Petraea?) but okay. What was the AbV in your bottles with it, may I know, please? Tannins are mostly a water-soluble substance. Lignin and lactones are way better broken down by alcohol. The stronger it is, the better.

And let me offer an experiment. Take that stick(s) now to a separate glass jar. Just wet it with neutral alcohol with a strength of 70% or higher, close the lid tightly and let it sit for 2-3 days and check their smell. The sticks should not float in the alcohol! Just make sure to keep them wet. Observe the change in the intensity of the smell over time. I think the maximum will come in 2 weeks. If so, you have received a ready-made matured oxidized extract: throw these sticks in your whiskey for literally an hour. Because all that remains is to wash it off into the product! Then repeat the 2-week process of further oxidation. The show must go on... until you decide it's tasty enough.

[vernue]

Hi Vlaga,

It was "barrelled" at 60%, which is a little more than I usually do. I've done this whiskey before several times with no issue. I'd blame the sticks, but they are second use sticks from a bourbon that came out just fine.

the question i am really asking, is.... i know i have to give it more time, but should i put the oak sticks back in or not? It already tastes over-oaked, but there are those I think who say that the cure is to leave the sticks in, and the whole thing will mellow out well over time. but putting sticks back in to an overly woody whiskey seems counter-intuitive. Any thoughts on this?

[habaz]

Flavour and taste settle after minimum a year and i leave the sticks in spirit for a year at %62 abv. Everyting becomes so good after a year, you need to be paitient. Put them back, i would say

[vernue]

Thanks Habaz! I just read an article though that recommended aging at lower proofs. I think I'll continue with some at 60%, and being others down to between 52-55% and see if i can taste a difference. But yes, the stick go back in.

[jonnys_spirit]

I have a liter jar packed with charred oak sticks and keep it topped up... It get's pretty dark and overoaked.... It's been that way for many months.

I'll sometimes add some of the dark liquid to other batches/bottles for color and flavor and othertimes sip it as-is...

If it's over-oaked after a year then I'm suggesting that you might dilute with some under-oaked product... However, "dilute" may not necessarily be the correct term..

Cheers,
jonny

[VLAGAVULVIN]

the question i am really asking, is.... i know i have to give it more time, but should i put the oak sticks back in or not? It already tastes over-oaked, but there are those I think who say that the cure is to leave the sticks in, and the whole thing will mellow out well over time. but putting sticks back in to an overly woody whiskey seems counter-intuitive. Any thoughts on this?

I'm afraid my advice will go against the grain with the others. I insist that the distillate should be aerated and waited, time and again. And let the wood pieces live separately for now. Cheers.

P.S. The lower AbV - the higher tannins concentration so, the more successful your inner beaver will be in crunching an oaky stool. Could you please, place here a link to the "article that recommended aging at lower proofs"? I wanna get their pros.

[vernue]

Here ya go:
http://bourbonr.com/blog/nerdy-whiskey- ... try-proof/
https://www.fredminnick.com/2021/06/25/ ... ry-proofs/

lowering ABV was already on my list of things to do. I guess i'll try different things wiht different bottles (I have about 20 bottles of the stuff, so lots to experiment with).

J-S - I do have some over-oaked bourbon that i use to infuse (is that the word?) into other bottles to provide a better taste profile. It's a handy fix. But yeah, if the over-oaked taste persists to a year, i was thinking of getting ahold of some more malt to attenuate the flavor.

[VLAGAVULVIN]

Here ya go:
http://bourbonr.com/blog/nerdy-whiskey- ... try-proof/
https://www.fredminnick.com/2021/06/25/ ... ry-proofs/

Thanks, imma read it in and out now

And yes, today I'm boring, lol:

Take that stick(s) now to a separate glass jar. Just wet it with neutral alcohol with a strength of 70% or higher, close the lid tightly and let it sit for 2-3 days and check their smell. The sticks should not float in the alcohol! Just make sure to keep them wet. Observe the change in the intensity of the smell over time. I think the maximum will come in 2 weeks. If so, you have received a ready-made matured oxidized extract: throw these sticks in your whiskey for literally an hour. Because all that remains is to wash it off into the product!

It's way easier (and quicker!) to oxidize all we need on the wood surface before it's sunk in our distillate. The sticks need contact with air time and again. When placed in distillate, sticks are surrounded on all sides by liquid alone. Guess?.. It has not much to do with the way casks work.

[higgins]

Seems like you could fill your jars half full and let the oak fingers stick up into the head space, and then open them often to let air exchange take place.

[VLAGAVULVIN]

Seems like you could fill your jars half full and let the oak fingers stick up into the head space, and then open them often to let air exchange take place.

Pretty close, pretty close!

Here ya go:
http://bourbonr.com/blog/nerdy-whiskey- ... try-proof/
https://www.fredminnick.com/2021/06/25/ ... ry-proofs/

Well, I'm under sanctions (no kidding) at fredminnick.com (betcha, that Fred keeps secret some rocket science from me, lol).

As for the 1st link / article. Okay, folks... I'm not the elder guy from Rick & Morty tandem. But was somehow graduated in chemical engineering and not fence assembly. Sort of humble opinion:

1. This all concerns barrels processing, not "jars with chips" workout. You and me, we have jars - there's different "kinetics" in comparison to casks. For example, alcohol will not strengthen over the years like it does in barrels stored in the American climate.
2. The article may concern bourbon, not single malt, right? My "Islay" distillate is not 130 but 150 proof from the spout. No legislation forces me to immediately dilute it to 125. It's on my own mind and taste, eh?
3. Okay, sugar does dissolve better in water. But man, it is not the [smaller] size of the molecules. It's all about the polarity of the alcohol molecule / non-polarity of the water molecule. Something like "what is soluble in oil is insoluble in acetone, and vice versa." And there is plenty of sugar in the first-fill barrel (bourbons again / not our case). We make a second-fill imitation, not so sweetie. At least, I do care more of vanilla and coconut for my "Scotch". So, I need more polar solvent for all those lactones and lignin. Just after I toasted the wood (not charred).
4. The matured (aged over the years) water made me especially smile. This is exactly the water that will pull out the excess tannins. And then it will tell me: I did it, now oxidize these tannins yourself.

I presented my points not to start a long debate. I just expressed my opinion on why I think that article was written in the spirit of "just to write something about fence disassembly".

[VLAGAVULVIN]

Well-well-well: https://whiskyadvocate.com/secret-scien ... d-barrels/

Phenols play an important role in whiskey's flavor, bolstering the tasty esters, but too many just render the unwanted wood note. “Water is a powerful agent for breaking down compounds and the wood sugars. Phenolic compounds tend to be astringent and hot, and when you add water, phenolic compounds are soluble in water. Once dissolved, they are free to oxidize, creating a smoother whiskey,” Wilson says.

Pardon, this further oxidation is a big problem. We have a dump piece of glass [jar] for a period of one to three years, not a "breathing" cask for twelve+ years. Maybe we should just not let these phenols jump out of the wood? Or oxidize them even before adding the chips to the distillate?

[vernue]

"It's way easier (and quicker!) to oxidize all we need on the wood surface before it's sunk in our distillate. The sticks need contact with air time and again. When placed in distillate, sticks are surrounded on all sides by liquid alone. Guess?.. It has not much to do with the way casks work."

the wood is being oxidized through charring, no. or are you saying that the wood needs to be "aired out" before using? i see what you are saying when you say that wood sticks will work differently than a charred barrel. Phenols are astringent, he says, and they are water soluble, so you say keep your aging proof high to reduce phenols. But he also says that once those phenols are oxidized, they add good stuff to the dram. so does mr higgins method solve the problem?

[still_stirrin]

I have determined (by experience) that lower %ABV entry proof returns a sweeter, more caramel/vanilla flavor to the whisky. High %ABV entry proof creates a “drier” product, as the alkaloids extracted cause the astringency. The amount of char will help buffer the astringency however.

So, I prefer to age at 120 to 130 proof even though a 110 to 115 entry proof is acceptable.

Also, like Vlad suggested, aeration during aging (I shake the vessel regularly to introduce oxygen into the spirits) seems to help soften the “burn” from higher volatiles which may be included in the cuts. Often, these volatiles decompose in the presence of air, similar to the introduction of air through the pores of a wooden cask.
ss

[VLAGAVULVIN]

Guys, either my idea* is so wild for y'all or my English has finally become really bad. Anyways, sorey

Sometimes doing new things with your hands helps you understand it better than a thousand theoretical lessons.

So, no one will die of fatigue having done a penny laboratory work step by step:

1. thoroughly soak your chips/sticks in strong distillate or strong neutral alco (or fish out already used ones from future whiskey)
2. instead of drying them on a plate until next time, place them in a mason jar with a tightly ground lid
3. there should be no distillate at the bottom of the jar, but the chips should not be dry either: keep them moist, moist, moist
4. check every day how the smell in that mason jar changes
5. when after a couple of weeks the smell becomes great, simply "wash off" the resulting extract in your target distillate (this will require immersing the sticks or chips in the distillate for only half an hour)

consequence-1: even 20 grams per quarter (of chips treadted in this way) is not too much, if you remove them after half an hour!
consequence-2: toasted chips will give you more yummies (and faster!) / feel free to char if ya wish but toast before
consequence-3: the extract (that you need to wash off) matures faster with a higher strength of distillate (say, 70% AbV / 140 proof)
consequence-4: if you did not catch the sticks from the distillate in time then be offended at yourself for catching an oak tea again

* THE IDEA: Initially, there is no vanilla, brandy, whiskey, other magic in toasted oak. All this is formed over time on the surface in the presence of alcohol and oxygen. If the stick lies at the bottom of a jug with distillate all the time then there is a dramatic lack of oxygen! Charring of the stick is more about pyrolysis than about oxidation.

Cheers!

[vernue]

Thank Vlag - you should make an animation for thickheaded hillbillies like me.

[vernue]

Stilly - thanks for your insight. when i was in Louisville recently, we visited a distillery where they played absolutely raucous music at frog-sterilizing volumes, saying that helped the whiskey. Maybe the vibrations set up by the super-woofers induced waves in the barrels that increase oxidation? easier than shaking a 53 gal barrel, unless you put it on a boat. or do you think this is all just marketing?

[VLAGAVULVIN]

Thank Vlag - you should make an animation for thickheaded hillbillies like me.

No worries - here's an ole hillbilly from my end, too
.

.
Maybe, some day soon i'm making a vid about that "oxidation before extraction"

(unless another old feckin jerk cuts me off from YouTube here completely.)