Novice Guide for Cuts (Pot Still)

[stevexxx]

Howdi yall
So i have been destilling for about a year now, runing reflux still in pot mode, concidering trying reflux again.

So i am running rum, 12.5kg molasses at 43%sugar and 10kg sugar inverted to 4l all added to 76lt water.

So this comes out 10.7% about.
I make cuts on smell and taste more because i am scared off tails making me sick than anything ells, which means i normally end up with about 1.2lt of ethol at 67% abv from 30lt run, i make 350-500 ml foreshot and heads cut.
So what i would like to know is how much safe alcohol can i actually take out from it, as i know i am taking out less than i could.
No stripping runs, straight from mash to bottle, and i run it quick, 2-3 hours from light to off.
Also for those wondering my still starts at about 72C and would quickly climb till 82C where it will sit for most of the time after which it wil then climb very slowly at 1C every 10-20min

Thx

The only thing bad about the tails is the taste, you can add what you like, there is nothing unsafe in there I'm aware of. I often use some the more interesting flavours down in the tails and generally run it down to 10% and what I dont use add to my next run or save it for an all feints run.. There is some good stuff down in them tails...

[Toxxyc]

Glad this thread isn't too "old" for me to post.

So I've been distilling for about 9 months or so myself. There's a question I've been meaning to ask since forever. I use my still in pot still mode (just packed riser with copper mesh) and I'd like to know WHERE I should take the temps, if I want to (I want to). Asking because of this site/page: https://www.whiskeystillpro.com/blogs/n ... illing-run

So this page confirms what I know, but what intrigues me is the temps mentioned. I want to know WHERE those temps are measured. Right now I have a small 4mm hole drilled into the top of the riser, which is where a thermometer probe fits through, and gets sealed with flour paste with each run. It allows me to keep an eye on the temperature at the top of the riser, and it's how I ran it on my previous still as well.

But with my previous still, this was just not good enough. The temperatures never correlated with the numbers on that page (not even close), so I'd like to know, where would the best place be to keep an eye on the temperatures?

[Expat]

So I've been distilling for about 9 months or so myself. There's a question I've been meaning to ask since forever. I use my still in pot still mode (just packed riser with copper mesh) and I'd like to know WHERE I should take the temps, if I want to (I want to). Asking because of this site/page: https://www. .com/blogs/news/31769601-how-to-cut-your-alcohol-distilling-run

Firstly, why did you go to that external site when the information is already in this thread?

If you bother to take temps, then the only appropriate place to do so in a pot still is within the vapor stream; this will provide you a rough understanding of ABV in that moment.

However I would point you to reread the parent post.

"Temp is no worse than %abv for deciding where to make the cuts, but both are rough guides at best. Cuts are (should be) ultimately made by taste and smell, not %abv or vapour temp."

But with my previous still, this was just not good enough. The temperatures never correlated with the numbers on that page (not even close), so I'd like to know, where would the best place be to keep an eye on the temperatures?

This tells you that the value of that site is poor and should be ignored. There's tons of uninformed garbage out there, HD is the best place to dispel it.

[Toxxyc]

I had that site's info before I actually popped on here, TBH. It just happens to be that way, unfortunately.

So, in the vapour stream - would that mean the top of the riser is fine? The tip of the probe is dangling literally right in the top of the riser where the riser joins the lyne arm, so I'm measuring the uppermost part of the vapour stream.

I'm measuring that part NOT to make cuts (for the most part), but I am measuring it to "learn" my still. With my old pressure cooker still I learned those numbers well enough that I could use a temperature alarm to tell me when I should turn down the heat on the still when it came up to temp, etc. etc. to prevent puking and to make it run better. So I want to do the same with this still.

I intend on making cuts on taste in the end anyway, cutting into a ton of jars and blending them together a day or so later after they've had the chance to breathe a bit.

[still_stirrin]

...I'm measuring that part NOT to make cuts (for the most part)...

...But with my previous still, this was just not good enough. The temperatures never correlated with the numbers on that page (not even close)...

...So I want to do the same with this still...

Well, some are “teachable”. Other’s aren’t. You’ve asked a question and were given a valuable answer, but you didn’t like the answer. Asking the question over and over won’t get you a different answer.

Bottomline: a thermometer isn’t much value when running a potstill. It will only confuse you or lead you astray. Learn to run your still WITHOUT the thermometer and you’ll be a better distiller. Learn to “feel” the riser and lyne (or swan neck) to tell where your vapor is. And learn to manage the heat input/vapor production by the stream at the spout.

Don’t fall for the “newbie paradigm” that the temperature (somewhere in the still) will tell you when to make your cuts! It won’t work.
ss

[Toxxyc]

Oh no I got my answer and I'm definitely taking it to heart. I won't use it as a guide to make my cuts. I've already learned to read where the vapour goes by touching the riser and lyne arm, and even burning my fingers - LOL.

I did build a SSR into the feeding line to the element so I can control the speed at which the still runs, and from my previous still I learned that smaller stills run slower. That little still with the 22mm riser ran at a speed of drips, and nothing more. From what I've read it seems I'll be able to run my new still a lot faster, as it has a lot larger riser (2 inches), and I can expect around 2l per hour if I'm running it well.

It will NOT determine my cuts, and I intend on making cuts like always. I have one jar into which I collect my foreshots, and then I start collecting into 350ml jars, numbered. When a jar is filled (on the smaller still I only let it fill up around 1/3rd of the way), I'll swap it out. After the jars are filled (should give me around 9l of capacity) I can stop the still and decide what to keep and what goes into feints. This method works well for me. Learned this from the Still It YT channel?

[Deplorable]

Toxxyc, you don't need a thermometer at all. If you use your sense of touch, your sense of smell, and hearing, you will know when the still is heating up, and about ready to produce. At that point you'll know it's time to lower the heat. You can adjust the energy applied once it begins producing to achieve the output rate you want. Your product condenser should be the operated by the sense of feel as well. Managing your water flow to maximize efficiency.
Once the desired output rate is achieved at the spout after a slow fores/early heads take off, you need only monitor the jars.

[Birrofilo]

Stripping_run_temperatures.pdf

(451.97 KiB) Downloaded 285 times

@stevexxx

You should get the temperature before the elbow, and certainly after the dephlegmator if you use a column.

The information that you get from that collection will not really be repeatable from still to still and wash to wash. It is influenced by reflux (all stills more or less have some reflux) and probably other factors. But it will somehow allow you to "peep" inside the vapour flow and will give you a sense of progress of the work.

The information you get from that is not different that the information you get from a parrot. It tells you more or less "where you are" in the run but it's not a good method enough to make cuts (especially for flavoured spirit, with a pot still, with a hobby setup. Industrial setups do use temperatures, but they also use different stills and work on consistency of wash). But you already know that.

Just for your information and for other people's comparisons, I insert here a recorded sequence of temperatures during a stripping run. If you record a sheet like this during your next run, you will see how the general "curve" will be the same, but the actual temperatures might differ. The beginning of production, for instance, might be off-set in respect to my temperature.

If I had a parrot (which I begin being interested in just for the same reason I am interested in watching temperatures, just to watch the process) I would compile this table with the ABV on a fourth column. I don't have one, but I do from time to time fill a small borosilicate glass cylinder and put the alcoholmeter in it, and that's why you see some ABV notes in this sheet.

Columns are: Hour of the day, temperature of the kettle, temperature at the elbow;
Accensione = Turning on;
Vapore e rumore = Vapour and noise
Sale rapidamente = Climbs rapidly
Produce = Produces (product begins to condensate in the receiver)
Temperature stabile, no, risale di nuovo = Stable tempearture, no, climbs again
Raccolti 200ml = Collected 200 ml (at 18:49 I collected 260ml and I switched container and begun collecting in the big vessel)
In several occasion I wrote "Stabile", "stable" but in fact this is more of an impression.
I have a digital thermometer and it doesn't give me a real stable value, if often oscillates around a value and I try to record that value, the oscillation moves upward slowly. Taking a real "temperature read" is difficult because the vapours themselves are not really stable for some reason. That's another reason doing cuts with temperature wouldn't work with my still and thermometer, it's a moving target.

Quasi means almost (at 19:26 kettle temperature was almost 95°C).

Fisso? means Fixed? Because I had the impression there was a stabilization

Pausa caffè spengo fornello Coffee break, I turn the stove down (electric threshold to respect)

Appare olio = Oil appears. When the drop falls from the condenser into the jar, I can see the "oils" spreading in the jars inside the liquid seen in transparence (I don't see them on the surface, as real "oils", but they blend in the alcohol. If I went much further in the extraction, up to 20% ABV or less, I begin seeing actual oils on the surface, but these oils in this notes don't appear on the surface, they blend in)

Spengo = I turn off the stove

44-45% is the average content of the entire alcohol collection, excluding the first 260 ml.

The wash was 28 litres at around 11% or something less. Total collection was 5 litres. Supposing the kettle charge was 11% I had 3,08 anhydrous alcohol in the kettle and I recovered 2,2 litres of it.

You could draw such a table with a parrot or with your thermometer, and it will certainly give you some interesting indication on the working of the process.

As a side note, my still in pot still configuration is a "long neck" so to speak: vapours have to climb more than 1 meter, actually 1,5 meters all considered, before arriving to the elbow. There certainly is a more than minimal reflux in the column, even though there is no packing at all.

I am a beginner in this hobby and this kind of notes is of value to me. Once one gets more experienced all this process becomes so to speak "incorporated" in one's knowledge and one doesn't take notes any more (although I think I will with a new still).

[Birrofilo]

As you can see, the result I obtain are comparable, but not equal, to the result of the calculator:

https://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.php/htm/calc ... t_calc.htm

This also shows the kettle temperatures (not the elbow temperature).

The calculator doesn't take into account the discarded foreshots but if you fill it for 23 litres, 11% volume, 1800W during heat-up and 1200W production, 15% reflux (which I think could be my case) you obtain results which are more or less in line with my notes.

[Yodaspike]

Yeah as less abv in mash changes temps a lot, less abv means higher start temps.
I use the temp gage these days only to know when to expect product and when to stop.

Also i once ran my still very hot trying to get about 50abv fron the whole run instead of starting at 70 then slowly going down to nothing, and that gave me bad stomach pain, reran it as normal, and all was good

[FogHorn LegHorn89]

Beautiful write up kiwi, Solid Gold, many many thanks and many thanks to usge as well your portions are very helpful

[Runt]

sorry for the newbie question,
I have done one run as of now and getting ready for my second

In reference to turning up the heat a little.
I have a temperature gauge at the top of my column and I ran my first run between 175F and 190F degrees (180F was 80% of my run). how many degrees would you say is a little bit more heat? a high and a low,
this way I can play with it and see which produces better results.

thank you for your advice it is really narrowing the learning curve.

ODP

There is a lot wrong with that question. Before answering, I’m curious what kind of column you have? VM, CM, LM, etc. Or is this possibly a pot still? This is a thread for pot stilling, but you said column so I want to be sure before answering. Otis

I'm using a pot still, thumper, and over kill liebig worm. I have a temperature gauge in the middle of the pot and at the top of the head where it goes to the thumper. The temp gauge is only an estimate guide that becomes more educated every run. The spirit out put stream is what I think is more important. Does anyone pause the temperature on the still at a certain temp for a amount of time while warming up or anywhere in the distilling process?
Thanks

[Yodaspike]

Well if you could, one i might, i think it would be good to bring it to 60c keep a while, if nothing comes out or stops, then bring up another 5c, and so on and so on

[jimnz]

Hey elders, a quick Q on Feints.
by adding feints to successive spirit runs, wouldn't the bad tastes keep accumulating making the hearts smaller each run?

[Yummyrum]

That is is what you would expect jim
But in practice it seems not to work that way and counter intuitively , you end up with a larger hearts cut and the heads and tails cut are bigger but not proportionally so .

I have a theory in my head why this happens but everytime I write it , it looks wrong .Best I can come uo with is Birds of a feather flock together .

[NZChris]

Hey elders, a quick Q on Feints.
by adding feints to successive spirit runs, wouldn't the bad tastes keep accumulating making the hearts smaller each run?

That depends on the width of your cuts and what you are making, I never do it for neutral.

Continuous recycling doesn't work for me when making rum, but it does work for others here.

[JustinNZ]

Hey Jim. I make a lot of rum, and I try to cover my bets on the recycling of feints by going deep in my stripping runs (overall abv 25-28%), taking a decent foreshot on the spirit run (reading Kiwi’s post again I might go bigger - I take 50ml per 20L of wash. Might double that) and stopping collecting when I’m pretty sure tails has taken over, so the worst of the tails stays in the pot. Rum tails can be foul.

Every now and then my feints smell quite nice. I’ve actually got a heads and tails rum aging somewhere just to see what 2 years on oak does.

[Sporacle]

In a my rum setup the volume of feints added to each run is the same, the cut volumes are the same and this is after about 8 70 litre runs.
Volumes don't change and flavour stays about the same, like Yummy I've got a theory but I can't explain it

[NZChris]

Hey Jim. I make a lot of rum, and I try to cover my bets on the recycling of feints by going deep in my stripping runs (overall abv 25-28%), taking a decent foreshot on the spirit run (reading Kiwi’s post again I might go bigger - I take 50ml per 20L of wash. Might double that) and stopping collecting when I’m pretty sure tails has taken over, so the worst of the tails stays in the pot. Rum tails are foul.

Every now and then my feints smell quite nice. I’ve actually got a heads and tails rum aging somewhere just to see what 2 years on oak does.

I will suggest that that is not a question for the Novice Guide for Cuts. If you are asking about rum cuts and recycling feints, that is probably already covered in the rum topics or needs to have its own topic started.

[jimnz]

Thanks people for all the help.
After reading the posts I completed a 8.5lt neutral spirit run in jars and made my cuts. it worked out at 2lt, 4lt, 2lt (heads 25%, hearts 50%, tails 25%)
Ill bang the feints into the next spirit run, make cuts and see how the volumes work out.

My uneducated presumption is that the ratios will be the same, but volumes will grow by 50% (8lts of low wines + 4lts of feints)
so 3lt heads, 6lt heads, 3lt tails? (approx assuming no accumulation of feints is happening)