How Much is too Much??

[Mr_Beer]

I am soliciting views on whether it is possible to ‘over age’ distillate?
Put differently when is the right time to bottle the aged product – how many months of ageing?

More details….
Whiskey and Scotch stored in quart sized mason style jars (aprox 26 oz of liquid, plus stick and some air) at an ABV of 60 with 5”x1”x1” white oak sticks that have been properly aged and then toasted about 60 minutes at 390F and then charred to L1. These are not previously used -- essentially short pieces from Gibbs Brothers Cooperage.

In theory this ‘stick’ approach is supposed to accelerate the typical barrel ageing process because of the increased SA to volume ratio.

I am a newbie but I have been at this hobby long enough to have ageing bottles approaching 1+ years.

Leave alone or bottle?

[kiwi Bruce]

If you used new oak and didn't remover some of the tannin by boiling it first, you'll end with a spirit that resembles Bourbon and not Scotch. In this case you can defiantly over age it. However if you used once used oak from a bourbon barrel, used JD half kegs sell for $40-$50 over the summer in my area, then you want the whisky to taste noticeably over oaked. Over the next few weeks the taste will mellow and be perfect. If you remove the wood when it tastes perfect, it will be bland and you'll have to give it a few more weeks on the oak.
NOTE :- Don't use the head stave oak to mature Scotch. In order to stop the barrel head from leaking it's not toasted and charred like the rest of the barrel. Save this wood for your Bourbon where it will make an amazing spirit.
The stick approach does accelerate the aging/maturation of the colored spirits, especially whisky, from years to months. It's not just using oak sticks that do this though. The whole process is quite involved. There are several different topics on "rapid aging" by several of our members, including me, on the subject. We each have our own slight take on it...look it up, and decide for yourself who's method would work for you...Kiwi

[SW_Shiner]

Not sure about over aging, some whiskeys are aged for 20-30+ years before being bottled. I think the biggest issue at our scale is over oaking.
I have a couple of early jars that i was way too generous with the oak, so i took the oak out and leave it just how it is. It may round out, or ill use it in a blend if i feel it wont change anymore.

As for when is the right time for bottling? Its when you think its good enough to bottle. For me, that's when the bottle im drinking runs dry.

[kiwi Bruce]

I see "Over aging" and "Over oaking" as being synonyms...But that could just be Me...I'll let Mr Beer clarify that.

[IAmPistolPete]

"Barrel aging" not only adds the sugars & tannins, etc from oak but also allows a small amount of air exchange [micro oxidation]. Is it not possible to "oak" and "age" in separate steps or in conjunction? Like a mason jar that gets opened twice a month & put back or with layers of coffee filters for a top? ...with oak staves or after oak extraction.
Over-extraction is definitely a thing but does it mean over-aged?

[NZChris]

It is possible to over oak in glass, so I try to use an amount that can stay in the liquor indefinitely.

Infusing compounds from the wood is only the beginning of aging. Those compounds react with the spirit to make new compounds which will react with each other and the spirit and the earlier compounds etc., etc., a cascade of reactions getting more and more complex until you take the liquor off the wood.

[JustinNZ]

Bruce, by new oak do you mean seasoned and toasted but never previously used, or, y’know, fresh off the tree?

[Deplorable]

Bruce, by new oak do you mean seasoned and toasted but never previously used, or, y’know, fresh off the tree?

His original post states properly aged and toasted.

1 inch square and 5 inches long in a quart seems like a little much to me, my stcks are closer to half inch square and 5 inches long. I put 1 per quart or 3 in a gallon jug with 3 quarts of spirit. None of my glass aged stuff has lasted long enough to feel like was over oaked glass aged stuff is usually all gone by the time it's 2 years old. The barrel aged suff seems to last a lot longer, but there's so much more of it.

[squigglefunk]

less is more IMO, you didn't mention the size of the mason jar

[Saltbush Bill]

Agree 100% with 1inch × 5 being to much...., 1 stick ,,1/2 inch x 5 per Litre or quart is what has always worked for me, it's also been proven to work for many others,
Less for longer is always better than more for a short time.

[Bee]

"Barrel aging" not only adds the sugars & tannins, etc from oak but also allows a small amount of air exchange [micro oxidation]. Is it not possible to "oak" and "age" in separate steps or in conjunction? Like a mason jar that gets opened twice a month & put back or with layers of coffee filters for a top? ...with oak staves or after oak extraction.
Over-extraction is definitely a thing but does it mean over-aged?

Definitely don't leave your jars open. They will lose all their alcohol character. I did it and had to add headsier fractions back to mine to save them.
That's one way to over age!

There's plenty of O2 in the headspace of a jar to do the job without leaving them open other than to get a whiff or a taste every once in a while..

[Mr_Beer]

At this point I believe what I have read is...

• It is possible to 'over oak' the distillate

• The size of my current sticks is considered too large

• The probability of over oaking (flavor related) with these larger sticks is high

• Over ageing is probably not in the cards and not considered an actual issue versus over oaking

I have a significant amount of the sticks that are too large. If I cut the sticks in half I will achieve a SA/V ratio comparable to the recommended size of 5" x 1/2" x 1/2"

My advanced age realistically forestalls any notion of longer ageing and is the reason I am focused on shorter time frames relative to ageing.

If anyone is interested I have a spreadsheet that lays out various stick sizes and resulting SA/V ratios for my mason jar storage. It can be easily modified to reflect different storage container sizes. PM me if interested.

If this summary is off base do not hesitate to point it out.

[kiwi Bruce]

Bruce, by new oak do you mean seasoned and toasted but never previously used, or, y’know, fresh off the tree?

New Oak is "seasoned" as in dried, this could be drying in an outdoor barn for a couple of years or kiln dried for a couple of days. It's "New" because it's never been used to mature/age :- wine, beer, rum, brandy, bourbon or whisky.
This "New Oak" has to be treated before it can be toasted and charred for use in our spirit. This treatment involves boiling the wood in good, chlorine free water, letting it dry out completely and repeating the process a least tree times (that would be me) and I have read of some of our members repeating this nine times ...then It's ready for toasting and charring. What this does is remove some/most of the tannic acid from the oak and not destroying the vanillans and other wood sugars we need to mature/age in glass or stainless steel.

[kiwi Bruce]

less is more IMO, you didn't mention the size of the mason jar

I only age in half gallon mason jars. I feel they are the best size to use for the way I like to "Rapid age" whisky...both bourbon and scotch.

[Deplorable]

My advanced age realistically forestalls any notion of longer ageing and is the reason I am focused on shorter time frames relative to ageing.

in my experience with 1/2X1/2X5 inch sticks toasted and charred, the spirit is good after 6 to 8 months, at a year+ it's even better.
I think you might be surprised at how little time some big distilleries leave their spirits in the barrel comparatively.

[JustinNZ]

Sorry Bruce, follow-up question: when I buy seasoned and toasted dominoes should I just assume they haven’t pre-treated it by boiling in water and is it now pointless or actually useful doing something to pre-treat it (apart from charring) before chucking it in my jars, i.e. boiling like you recommended? I’ve always just assumed the commercial dominoes were good-to-go. Apologies if this should be a new thread. Tannins are an interesting part of the flavour profile of the rums I make and it’s a challenge deciding if the flavour I can detect is early tails or tannins or both - I like it but my rums are kinda whisky-ish I believe.

[NZChris]

To check out how much of a new batch of wood to use, I trial them using tricks I found on the forum.

Nuclear whiskey;
viewtopic.php?t=38991

20 years in 6 days;
viewtopic.php?t=55301

[kiwi Bruce]

I’ve always just assumed the commercial dominoes were good-to-go.

I like it but my rums are kinda whisky-ish I believe.

Dominoes, I've never used them but I would also assume they'd be good to go. In fact they would have to be...in their ads they recommend just chucking them into a bottle of spirit. But I may be wrong and thinking of the "time and something" cut sticks.

The rum flavor being "whisky-ish" The range of flavors in the world of rum is huge...so if you like it go with it.

[Saltbush Bill]

I've only ever used Domino's from Still Dragon, those are right to go as is.
As a point of interest it was them that named and marketed those chunks of Oak "Dominos"
They are simply an oak adjunct made originally to be used in the wine industry that have been marketed for use in our hobby.