Moldy Flavor In Barrel

[Novy]

Hoping for some advice here. I have an apple brandy aging in a BadMo Barrel. The barrel was in hand well before the spirit was ready, so I had it sitting with water in it for a while... maybe a few months. When the brandy was ready, I drained it and refilled with the spirt. Every 2~3 months I gave a taste and seemed ok.
Now I took a small sample, and diluted down to ~40% to get a proper sample, and all of a sudden this moldy cheese flavor came out, and it's bad... undrinkable. So I'm worried the barrel got moldy on the inside when the water was in and higher ABV in the barrel was hiding the flavor.

So my questions to anyone who has experience with this:
1) What are the odds this was just an off flavor from the dilution that will dissipate? I have the samples still so I'll check in a few days, but doubtful here
2) If I continue to age, with these flavors break down into something palatable? Again, I'm doubtful here.. but hoping I have a happy accident?
3) If the barrel / spirit is toast, so be it. But if I re-run it through the still can I ditch these off flavors and start again?

Thanks in advance!

[Deplorable]

You don't mention how long the Brandy has been in the barrel.
Could it have been your cuts? Maybe it's just reached an awkward stage.
Maybe too much of the tails end of the run in the final blend that you selected? It may turn around.
Personally, I would never fill a barrel with water to sit for months before emptying it to fill with spirits for this exact reason. Mold.
I'd rather let the barrel sit empty and vented until I'm ready to fill it. Then rehydrate it, drain it, and promptly fill it.
was the water funky when you drained the barrel?
I've never tried to re-run a spirit to save it and keep the flavor. I've only re-run a bad spirit to make neutral.

Edit to add that I personally believe that anything in a Badmo should be given at least a couple of years to age before judging it. Bens original intent of the design was to try to provide a small barrel option for long term, slow aging without the losses found in small casks made entirely of wood.

[Dougmatt]

Was it a home made badmo or from badmotivator? What was the toast / char level? What type of water are you diluting with?

When I read this my mind went to saponification. Maybe pull another sample and do a slow reduction to see if it’s still there.

[Novy]

It's been in the barrel for 9~10months. I was trying to barrel at relatively higher ABV (~65%) so I did go a little deeper into the tails than I would have liked... but I was hoping time in the barrel would clean that up. And the water from the barrel seemed fine when I emptied it. It was clear, except for a few bits of charcoal. And it smelled like nothing, maybe a hint of oak. The barrel also smelled find after I emptied it. I was worried about mold so I was checking.
The Toast was heavy and the char was #3, and this barrel was a purchased BadMo. I was also counting on the stronger char to clean it up a little. For the sample, I diluted it with filtered water from our fridge.

But point taken.. I won't give up yet. I'll let it sit a bit longer and check in again. And I'll try a slower dilution.

Thanks for the advice!

[jonnys_spirit]

Best to fill your waiting barrels with something like wine even if that means water + neutral proofed to 12% and maybe pH adjusted to as low as 3.2’ish with a wine acid blend. It’s going to take some of the oak but the combination of acidity and etoh will protect it.

Some tails in whiskey develops into complexity. Brandy, not so much.

Cheers,
-j

[quadra]

I would not panic, if the barrel had been moldy you would have known well before 8-9 months... and tasted hints during tastings previous to this. It may be the product or it may be the taster,but if the barrel is corked it will not matter, let it age another 6 months and try it again.

[NZChris]

I tried using moldy corn instead of throwing it out. I already knew that Jack Daniels insists on a grains passing a mold test, not for toxins but for flavor, but fermented some moldy corn anyway. Big mistake.

Jack Daniels do the right thing by not accepting moldy grain.

Mold is a difficult flavor to get rid of by distilling and my pot still spirit run brought over a lot of mold flavor throughout the run.

I diluted a narrow heart cut to 40% and added Calcium hydroxide to raise the pH to over 9 hoping that it would help, but pot stilling that got rid of much of the grain flavor but only some of the mold flavor.

Diluted that to around 40%, added Calcium hydroxide to around pH 9, let it work it for a few days and ran it through a packed column. That removed the most of the grain flavor and some of the mold. It still wasn't something that I would serve to a guest. I have gotten away with using that as the base spirit to make a multi-shot gin essence.

Multiple narrow cuts, chemistry, a lot of feints discarded, plus dilution, has gotten me a small amount of usable spirit and taught me not to try using moldy grain in the future.

[Dancing4dan]

Seems odd that the water that was in the barrel for several months came out clear.

Storing a barrel when empty.

h**ps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B4Bv-3rZv_4

Copy the link and change ** to tt

[Swedish Pride]

Don't have empty barrels.

Make aging stonk before you get the barrel and ensure to have enough at hand to keep topping them off.

I appreciate this is very much akin to advising someone to close the gate after the horse has bolted.

But barrels are expensive, and a vital part of the process, treat them well and they will reward you with excellent spirits

[Novy]

Thanks for all the insight / advice!

I did give them another taste a few days after dilution, at the moldy flavor was gone (or at least not obvious). So I'm guessing it was the dilution bringing some funk out of solution.

[NZChris]

Check your water.

[quadra]

Check your water.

I was thinking the same Chris... when was the last time rhe fridge water filter was changed?

[NZChris]

I quite often taste the water I’m intending to proof with. It has saved me making a mistake a couple of times.

[Novy]

Checking the water is a good point. But I don’t think that was the issue. The fridge and filter are only a month or two old. Just got new ones, and we drink the water constantly and haven’t noticed off flavors.

[ChristopherC]

If you’re storing a barrel for more than a few weeks, I’d recommend adding a preservative. That said, I’ve had good luck storing barrels with just water for several months without any issues. There are a lot of factors involved, but I don’t think the smell you’re picking up is from a moldy barrel. Some spirits, especially apple brandies, can go through that weird “gym sock” phase. Especially when you’re proofing them down. I’d say give it a little more time and let the barrel do its thing.

Ben once told me, his barrels can’t make a bad spirit good, but they can make a good spirit great. Sounds like you’ve got a solid handle on your cuts, but keeping an eye on that tails cut never hurts. Hang in there, it sounds like you’re on the right track!