Shady's Sugar Shine

[Elm Creek]

I followed this to the Tee, except went a little light on the sugar. Scaled down to 5 Gal just to try it.

OG 1.052
40 hours later I'm sitting at 1.005 and the bubbler is still doing it's thing. I'm very impressed, and can't wait to run it through the still. This might be a new go to recipe.

Thanks Shady

[PoolGuy]

Greetings-

I have been making SSS for about a year now. I run a 15gal batch every two weeks or so. My final SG keeps creeping up over time, and I cannot figure out why. Early batches finished .992, .990, .994, etc. Lately I am lucky to finish at 1.010. I tend to stay VERY true to the recipe, and maintain pretty consistent ingredients and process. I realize this is not a lot to go on, but if anybody has any thoughts, I am all ears, and can share additional details (temps, ph, speed, shell placement, what have you.).

I realize the answer to my question lies in "what has changed", but I just can't figure it out.

On a completely different topic, I will be on the gulf coast of Texas next week (Starship launch!). Can I just pick up some sea shells from the beach and bring them home for SSS? Clean and boil um' good first? I have been buying chicken feed oyster shells on Amazon, but if I can get a supply for free

Thanks in advance.

[shadylane]

I have been making SSS for about a year now. I run a 15gal batch every two weeks or so. My final SG keeps creeping up over time, and I cannot figure out why. Early batches finished .992, .990, .994, etc. Lately I am lucky to finish at 1.010.

The final gravity creeping upwards for no reason? The 1.010 is especially high for a happy sugar wash.
Maybe check the hydrometer with water @ the temp it's calibrated for.
I've had the paper inside a hydrometer slip a time or two.

[NZChris]

I use beach shells all the time. The bigger and thicker they are, the better they work as a buffer.

[PoolGuy]

NZChris - That is what I thought. Just seems too easy. I assume that I can re-use them for multiple batches of SSS? Can I re-use the Amazon.com oyster shells? Do these "shells" change chemically over multiple SSS batches and loose there effectiveness? Or do they simply break down and "disappear" over time?

Shady - Great thought. I'll check.

[NZChris]

I re-use them until they disappear. I also weigh them before and after and record the results for future reference.

[shadylane]

How much calcium and how fine it needs to be crushed for pH control depends.
Everyone's water is different.

[NZChris]

How much calcium and how fine it needs to be crushed for pH control depends.
Everyone's water is different.

If you are a bit of a control freak tight pH control might be satisfying. I am, but not for pH. The finer Calcium Carbonate is ground the more reactive it is to use.

I chuck large shells in and turn my brain off. Doing that, the shells only need to be pulled out if something unexpected happens and I can't get to stripping soon after the ferment goes dead. For some products I make the shells actually gain weight, so don't need to be used at all, but they do no harm in those washes.

Blocks of marble behave the same as large shells. Searching the site will find helpful threads.

[Saltbush Bill]

I've used both shell grit and oyster shells, both work and are a no fuss solution to the problem.

[MooseMan]

Greetings-

I have been making SSS for about a year now. I run a 15gal batch every two weeks or so. My final SG keeps creeping up over time, and I cannot figure out why. Early batches finished .992, .990, .994, etc. Lately I am lucky to finish at 1.010. I tend to stay VERY true to the recipe, and maintain pretty consistent ingredients and process. I realize this is not a lot to go on, but if anybody has any thoughts, I am all ears, and can share additional details (temps, ph, speed, shell placement, what have you.).

I realize the answer to my question lies in "what has changed", but I just can't figure it out.

On a completely different topic, I will be on the gulf coast of Texas next week (Starship launch!). Can I just pick up some sea shells from the beach and bring them home for SSS? Clean and boil um' good first? I have been buying chicken feed oyster shells on Amazon, but if I can get a supply for free

Thanks in advance.

Couple of questions that might dig into it a bit.

Are you using fresh yeast for each batch or cropping yeast from an active ferment and using that to start the next one?

Are you fermenting at the same temp every time?
Is it the temp that your yeast is most happy with?

Are you taking SG and FG of each batch?
If you have, post those figures, they might show a trend.

Regarding the shells, yeah get as many as you can carry home. Last time I went to the beach on a family walk I turned it into a shell hunt, even the dog got in on it!
The bigger they are the longer they last, but even the little limpet shells are good for a batch or two.

[Yummyrum]

For some products I make the shells actually gain weight, so don't need to be used at all, but they do no harm in those washes..

I’m curious , care to elaborate

[Archee72]

I have been making SSS for about a year now. I run a 15gal batch every two weeks or so. My final SG keeps creeping up over time, and I cannot figure out why. Early batches finished .992, .990, .994, etc. Lately I am lucky to finish at 1.010.

The final gravity creeping upwards for no reason? The 1.010 is especially high for a happy sugar wash.
Maybe check the hydrometer with water @ the temp it's calibrated for.
I've had the paper inside a hydrometer slip a time or two.

Agree with Shady, can you source another hydrometer to see if yours is off a bit?

[NZChris]

For some products I make the shells actually gain weight, so don't need to be used at all, but they do no harm in those washes..

I’m curious , care to elaborate

My sugar washes made on grape pomace put a crystalline deposit onto shells.
E.g., 2024, pH 4.5, 77g shell added.
Finished at pH 5.0, 79g shell remaining.

[PoolGuy]

Maybe check the hydrometer with water @ the temp it's calibrated for.
I've had the paper inside a hydrometer slip a time or two.

Checked. Hydrometer appears to be reading accuratly.

Are you using fresh yeast for each batch or cropping yeast from an active ferment and using that to start the next one?

Yes. Fleischmann's Instant Dry Yeast, kept in ziplock bag in fridge. Never more that a few months old.

Are you fermenting at the same temp every time?
Is it the temp that your yeast is most happy with?

Are you taking SG and FG of each batch?
If you have, post those figures, they might show a trend.

I use a heated "box" around my 15gal "DIP" bucket fermenter. Temp holds steady in the upper 80's F.

Here are some reading of a batch I started last week:

11/9/2024 97F 7.31pH 1.065 (at pitching time)
11/10/2024 85F 3.76pH 1.050
11/11/2024 86F 3.76pH 1.035
11/12/2024 85F 3.76pH 1.028
11/13/2024 87F 3.16pH 1.024

Is my pH too low? I used 1-1/2 cups crushed oyster shells per usual. Sometimes I hang a bag, sometimes I just dump them in.

I have been giving this batch a daily stir (before my readings). But some batches I never stir. Recommendations?

[Salt Must Flow]

Maybe check the hydrometer with water @ the temp it's calibrated for.
I've had the paper inside a hydrometer slip a time or two.

Checked. Hydrometer appears to be reading accuratly.

Are you using fresh yeast for each batch or cropping yeast from an active ferment and using that to start the next one?

Yes. Fleischmann's Instant Dry Yeast, kept in ziplock bag in fridge. Never more that a few months old.

Are you fermenting at the same temp every time?
Is it the temp that your yeast is most happy with?

Are you taking SG and FG of each batch?
If you have, post those figures, they might show a trend.

I use a heated "box" around my 15gal "DIP" bucket fermenter. Temp holds steady in the upper 80's F.

Here are some reading of a batch I started last week:

11/9/2024 97F 7.31pH 1.065 (at pitching time)
11/10/2024 85F 3.76pH 1.050
11/11/2024 86F 3.76pH 1.035
11/12/2024 85F 3.76pH 1.028
11/13/2024 87F 3.16pH 1.024

Is my pH too low? I used 1-1/2 cups crushed oyster shells per usual. Sometimes I hang a bag, sometimes I just dump them in.

I have been giving this batch a daily stir (before my readings). But some batches I never stir. Recommendations?

I think I see an issue. Get yourself some Citric Acid. BEFORE you pitch your yeast, add just enough Citric Acid to lower your starting pH to 5.2 - 5.6

You also want a significant amount of Calcium Carbonate (oyster shells, marble rock/chips, etc...). I see you're using oyster shells. Calcium Carbonate is what buffers the ph and keeps the ph from crashing. I typically suspend them in a mesh bag approx half way inside the fermenter. If you mesh bag is too fine, it can limit the contact with the oyster shell. Some have used a sock and found that it was too restrictive too. That's why I quit using oyster shell, the bits were too tiny and required a very fine mesh bag. I started using Marble Rocks/Chips and they work amazing with a coarse mesh bag.

If your starting ph is 5.2-5.6 and you have adequate Calcium Carbonate ... your sugar wash should ferment just fine and not get blow ph 4. I see your sugar wash is crashing overnight which is an indication of lack of ph buffering. The addition of Citric Acid may solve the issue by itself, but just be sure that you're not using too fine of a bag to hold the oyster shell. Once you know how much Citric Acid to add, that amount will be repeatable for identical sugar washes. Just to give you an idea of how much Citric Acid you might need, my 50 gal sugar washes need 50g each to reach 5.4 ph.

I would work on your ratio of hot water to cold water in order to get your pitching temp closer to 85F. 97F is bit higher than ideal. Once you've worked out your water ratio, it will be repeatable and your pitching temp will always be around 85F. I dump all my sugar into the fermenter. I dump in X amount of boiling water onto the sugar. I mix it with a drill then top it off with X amount of cold water. After learning my hot to cold water ratio, it always lands right around 85F. Now I dump in the rest of the ingredients, mix, confirm starting ph and pitch yeast.

I have been giving this batch a daily stir (before my readings). But some batches I never stir. Recommendations?

I would leave it alone and just let it ferment out. I try to do as little as required. Nothing wrong with testing every day though.

[MooseMan]

Yeah it's definitely pH crashing because there's not enough in there to buffer the acid that the yeast is kicking out.
Has your water changed by any chance?

If you can't go the citric route to create a more buffered solution or don't want to, you could always add a cereal of some kind, to help buffer the wash, but then that's moving away from the recipe so I shouldn't suggest it here really, sorry Shady.

I suppose it's also possible that the high start temp is causing the yeast to throw lots of acid in a very short time, and can't recover?

[shadylane]

11/9/2024 97F 7.31pH 1.065 (at pitching time)
11/10/2024 85F 3.76pH 1.050
11/11/2024 86F 3.76pH 1.035
11/12/2024 85F 3.76pH 1.028
11/13/2024 87F 3.16pH 1.024

Is my pH too low? I used 1-1/2 cups crushed oyster shells per usual. Sometimes I hang a bag, sometimes I just dump them in.

7.3 to 3.76 sounds like a pH crash to me.
I'd recommend lot's more crushed shell and a lower starting temp.
Maybe some calcium hydroxide aka pickling lime mixed with lemon juice to make a buffer solution.

[Bradster68]

+1 to SMF. I simply hang a chunk of solid white marble. ( It's easy to drill a hole for suspension)When I start with a new piece it very smooth. At the end its very rough and pourous.
I don't make many sugar washes. But when I do it's marble for me.

[shadylane]

I think crushed oyster shell with corral is more effective for pH control than chunks of marble.
Crushed shells have more surface area to react with acid than a flat piece of marble.

Put the grit in a sock and hang it in the middle of the fermenter just off the bottom.
The first day or two, when it's most critical, the sock can be used for stirring the wash by raising it to the surface then dropping it to the bottom and quickly raising it, move to another spot and do it again.
This both stirs the yeast back into action, keeps the sugar from settling to the bottom and adds more pH control.

Long story short, what's needed depends on the brewing water being used.
The simplest way that doesn't require measuring the pH is to use more crushed shells.

[PoolGuy]

7.3 to 3.76 sounds like a pH crash to me.

I have read about pH control and "pH crash", but never really fully understood. So the fermentation process makes pH drop. OK.

- Is my starting pH (7.31) too high? Thus the recommendation to add citric acid up front?
- Is my 24+ hour pH (3.76) too low? Thus making the yeast unhappy?
- Or is the rate of change (crash) over a short period of time making the yeast unhappy?

- Is my well water that different than the average joe's?

- Are my oyster shells somehow defective and not doing there job per the recipe?

- Any recommendation on what I might do at this point (6 days in) to improve the final SG of my current batch?

Regardless, I have citric acid on hand, and I know what to do when I get to the beach next week.

[MooseMan]

When you get a spare half hour PoolGuy, google the words "Making a buffer solution with an acid and a base" or something along those lines.
In the most simple sense, you are saturating a fluid with so much acid and so much base at the same time, that it "Buffers" or prevents the pH from changing as much as it would normally.

You don't have to do this, but with sugar washes being so notoriously risky of pH changes making the yeast unhappy, it's good to understand it.

At this point in your current batch, adding something to raise the pH up quickly, as in a stronger "Base" like pickling lime as you guys call it, will help, then make sure there's plenty of calcium to keep it happy to the end.

[Rusty Ole Bucket]

At this point in your current batch, adding something to raise the pH up quickly, as in a stronger "Base" like pickling lime as you guys call it, will help, then make sure there's plenty of calcium to keep it happy to the end.

I agree with Moose, it's also readily available, most groceries have it, and only like $5 a pound. I've had to pull two of my washes back from the brink so far and pickling lime works great. I mixed it with water and added a teaspoon at a time to an 8 gallon wash until I was in the right PH ballpark. I sterilized everything I was working with first, then would add a little, stir, wait 10 minutes and test again. I have ready access to white marble so I've been adding a piece to my last couple of white sugar washes and I haven't had any trouble with those.

Rusty

[Salt Must Flow]

7.3 to 3.76 sounds like a pH crash to me.

- Is my starting pH (7.31) too high? Thus the recommendation to add citric acid up front?
- Is my 24+ hour pH (3.76) too low? Thus making the yeast unhappy?
- Or is the rate of change (crash) over a short period of time making the yeast unhappy?

- Is my well water that different than the average joe's?

- Are my oyster shells somehow defective and not doing there job per the recipe?

- Any recommendation on what I might do at this point (6 days in) to improve the final SG of my current batch?

Regardless, I have citric acid on hand, and I know what to do when I get to the beach next week.

- Is my starting pH (7.31) too high? Thus the recommendation to add citric acid up front?
- Is my 24+ hour pH (3.76) too low? Thus making the yeast unhappy?
- Or is the rate of change (crash) over a short period of time making the yeast unhappy?

Yes, all of the above.

It's not about your well water or your oyster shells.

- Any recommendation on what I might do at this point (6 days in) to improve the final SG of my current batch?

You can add some Calcium Hydroxide (Pickling Lime) which will immediately raise your ph. Add little by little until your ph is 4-4.5

If you follow the protocol I outlined previously, your ph will never crash and it will always ferment completely without going below ph 4.

[PoolGuy]

Stopped at the store and picked up some Calcium Hydroxide. Two level tablespoons added to my 15gal ferment at this point. Details to follow. Thanks all!

[Salt Must Flow]

Stopped at the store and picked up some Calcium Hydroxide. Two level tablespoons added to my 15gal ferment at this point. Details to follow. Thanks all!

Calcium Hydroxide (Pickling Lime) is some STRONG stuff. Hopefully you don't over-shoot your ph. If you do, just add some Citric Acid to to compensate.

[shadylane]

Calcium Hydroxide (Pickling Lime) is some STRONG stuff. Hopefully you don't over-shoot your ph. If you do, just add some Citric Acid to to compensate.

Too much lime and too much acid. Sounds like accidently making a buffer.
When the pH has been adjusted both directions, in the future it doesn't change as easily.

[shadylane]

Can I re-use the Amazon.com oyster shells? Do these "shells" change chemically over multiple SSS batches and loose there effectiveness? Or do they simply break down and "disappear" over time?

I've tried reusing crushed shells and it didn't work. The pH crashed.
Not sure why but I think on the first use, the fines were consumed and the only thing left was the less reactive stuff in the crushed oyster shell and corral.

Reusing also had the problem of washing off or sterilizing the residue from fermentation.
Bacteria would love an aerobic environment with a pH around 8 and residue to eat.
All the while waiting for you to pitch it into the fermenter.

[PoolGuy]

This is a follow-up on previous discussions here:

After two weeks of fermentation, here are my results:

11/9/2024 97F 7.31pH 1.065 (at pitching time)
11/10/2024 85F 3.76pH 1.050
11/11/2024 86F 3.76pH 1.035
11/12/2024 85F 3.76pH 1.028
11/13/2024 87F 3.16pH 1.024
11/14/2024 85F 3.26pH 1.022

at this point, I added one Tablespoon at a time of Calcium Hydroxide (Pickling Lime) per suggestions here. Mix, wait, measure. The lime seems to have had little affect, and I stopped at 7 Tablespoons. The pH was up to only 3.66, but I was afraid to add more. The 7T of lime was added over a 24 hour period. I then left town for a week. After returning from Texas yesterday, here is where I ended up:

11/22/2024 86F 3.36pH 1.020

So it is stuck and never recovered from the apparent pH crash. I'll run it and get out of it what I can.

Now on to a fresh batch. I will be taking Salt Must Flow's advice, adding citric acid to achieve a staring pH of ~5.4, and pitching temperature of 85F. I will report results. Finger's crossed.

I brought home a couple of gallons of sea shells collected on the beach earlier this week, but I will be using Amazon.com oyster shells for this new batch to minimize variables.

[PoolGuy]

I am still struggling. The fermentation batch I detailed above was designated FB42. It got stuck at 1.020 and has since been run.

I started FB43 on 11/22, taking Salt Must Flow's advice and adding 3T citric acid up front for a starting pH of 5.46. It fermented out to 0.999. Good enough for me! Problem solved?

I started FB44 on 12/5. Again 3T citric acid, starting Ph 5.06. Today this batch measures 1.021 with pH 3.16. It is getting stuck . Added 5T lime (15gal batch), but pH barely moved (3.36). I used beach shells on this batch for the first time (rather than the usual oyster shells).

A few minutes ago in desperation, I added another 1/2 cup or so more lime and a couple three big handfuls of shells. My pH keeps crashing. I am suspecting that my problems may come from not be using enough shells, even though I am following recipe (typically 1-1/2 cups crushed oyster shells for my 15gal batch).

Question: Is there such a thing as too many oyster shells / beach shells / marble?

[Salt Must Flow]

I am still struggling. The fermentation batch I detailed above was designated FB42. It got stuck at 1.020 and has since been run.

I started FB43 on 11/22, taking Salt Must Flow's advice and adding 3T citric acid up front for a starting pH of 5.46. It fermented out to 0.999. Good enough for me! Problem solved?

I started FB44 on 12/5. Again 3T citric acid, starting Ph 5.06. Today this batch measures 1.021 with pH 3.16. It is getting stuck . Added 5T lime (15gal batch), but pH barely moved (3.36). I used beach shells on this batch for the first time (rather than the usual oyster shells).

A few minutes ago in desperation, I added another 1/2 cup or so more lime and a couple three big handfuls of shells. My pH keeps crashing. I am suspecting that my problems may come from not be using enough shells, even though I am following recipe (typically 1-1/2 cups crushed oyster shells for my 15gal batch).

Question: Is there such a thing as too many oyster shells / beach shells / marble?

Generally I don't think so. I bought a 42 lb bag of Marble Rocks from Lowes, split it in half and use that much for each of my 45 gal fermentations. It works for me.