T500 Low ABV Output 65%

[vanity]

Hi all,

First of all, I am a beginner so I apologise if I'm not providing helpful information but I'm trying my best to learn. This was my first time using a 2nd hand T500 still, on a TPW which I had estimated to be about 10% with a gravity of 1.015 so some sugars remaining.

I ran my wash and had a constant output of 65%, despite being told this still would hit 92%+. I ran at temperatures from 42c output (as the seller had told me) in incremements all the way up to 65c as the handbook said. I'd only see a change in ABV of a few points either way after a few minutes letting it stabilise at these temps.

I have emptied the column and cleaned the finings, of which a small portion were copper at the top and the remainder the stainless steel tubes (all look to be stock from what I see online). I did clean everything but nothing looked that bad at all, I have also repacked it with slightly more material so that may help.

But I do not know if this could be the reason for such a large output strength change, and I can't find any posts online for a similar situation with this equipment.

The only other thing of note I can think of but find it hard to believe would be the cause, is that where the temperature sensor sits, I think air was being introduced, so the water running out was very bubbly. This happened at any water flow rate and only stopped when I filled the hole fully, but lost the temperature reading doing so. No change in output for the few minutes I tried this though.

I apologise if this is an obvious problem to diagnose but hopefully if it is easy, I can help anyone else in the future having it, as I couldn't find any posts on this forum that seemed to align up.

Much appreciated and thanks for any suggestions for what I could look into.

[Saltbush Bill]

I think the most likely cause is probably running the still to fast.
Disregard temperatures completely.
Run the still by watching the output speed of the distillate.
Foreshots should be taken off at a very slow drip, heads slightly faster, hearts at a broken or extremely thin stream.
I doubt the bubbles in the water from the condencer is the problem,
You are right, that still should pull 92% abv.
I'd also look into Shadys Sugar Shine recipe in our Tried and True recipe section. Also read up on " stripping" if you want to make a quality neutral product.
The reason I mention out put speed is that the faster you run a reflux still the lower the reflux and the lower the ABV will be.

[SW_Shiner]

You've made the same mistake that almost every newbie makes with a T500. Following the directions. Turbulent water is not going to do any good for thermal conduction, if you can, seal up that hole so you have a clean flowing stream. Then run it 'by feel' so to speak. Start with a high water flow so that no product is coming over, then slowly, giving time for things to equalise, start turning down the water till you start to get product out. Slow drips for foreshot, then speed up a little more for heads. If proof starts to drop then you may be running too fast.

Thermometers can be a great tool in a still, provided they are placed correctly and you understand what the readings actually mean. You will find a few people around here, me included, that will tell new distillers to forget everything the brew store told you and cover or remove any thermometers until you understand what the temp values actually mean.

Edit: Posted same time as SB

[vanity]

Thanks - I appreciate the feedback. I had read up on the T500 online and it seems a lot of the handbook info is ignored by many out there so I've tried to get an idea from multiple sources. As I say, I ran it a lot cooler initially than the book said, but over the few hours I had it going I tried multiple temps and never saw much change in ABV.

I'll have a go at sealing the hole where the thermometer goes in, I think this was drawing air in, but I'm not sure how much this would affect it as it's right as it comes out - the water going in is fairly consistent from my tap though.

When you say run it slower, do you mean power input? I do have a voltage SCR if that's what you mean. Otherwise I'm assuming temperature and I did try that.

I'll give it another go in a few days time when my next batches of Birdwatchers wash should be done.

[Yummyrum]

The important point that Saltbush and Shiner have mentioned is the size of the stream of alcohol leaving the still .

If it is fare pissing out , then you are running too fast . This will result in low ABV .

You need to turn up the water flow . The alcohol stream should be reduced closer to a small dribble .

If you are using the original boiler , there should be no need to use an external controller . You should be able to slow down the takeoff simply by adjusting the coolant flow .

Can you actually stop the takeoff when you turned up the coolant flow?

[MooseMan]

Thanks - I appreciate the feedback. I had read up on the T500 online and it seems a lot of the handbook info is ignored by many out there so I've tried to get an idea from multiple sources. As I say, I ran it a lot cooler initially than the book said, but over the few hours I had it going I tried multiple temps and never saw much change in ABV.

I'll have a go at sealing the hole where the thermometer goes in, I think this was drawing air in, but I'm not sure how much this would affect it as it's right as it comes out - the water going in is fairly consistent from my tap though.

When you say run it slower, do you mean power input? I do have a voltage SCR if that's what you mean. Otherwise I'm assuming temperature and I did try that.

I'll give it another go in a few days time when my next batches of Birdwatchers wash should be done.

Vanity, use the next few days while your washes are finishing, to read up on this forum about reflux distillation.

A few pointers.
Strip the washes, and then add water if needed so that you are putting the stripped wash back into the boiler below 40abv. Most here run at 30 for neutral spirit runs.

I don't know much about the T500 setup but if you can't make the distillate stream virtually stop by increasing coolant flow, connect your voltage controller and use it to control the power that you're putting into the boiler.
Totally ignore the temperature, please. Put tape over the face of it so you can't see the needle or whatever.

Biggest single bit of advice I can give?
Read, read, read. You'll soon begin to understand.

[vanity]

Sorry I should have expanded on that - yes, when I've adjusted the temperature I can get a large variance in the stream coming out. Running with just over 40c on the output it was a drip every second or so, moving towards 65c I'd get an unbroken stream. But leaving it like this for a few minutes either way I never saw the ABV break below about 62% or go above 68%.

And thank you MooseMan I do plan on doing a lot of reading. I felt I had done enough going in to know what to expect but I was very thrown off by my output numbers. My plan is to do stripping runs and then run, as you say, a large 40% run through at which point I'll start taking my proper cuts out. I've just been quite confused by my output ABV despite changing water flow as it was well below what I had expected a T500 to do even on the low end.

I do want to clarify about temperature, the temp reading on the T500 column is on the output water after it's already gone through the condensor and then into the reflux column, so I feel like this number is quite important (I know some people mention boiler temperature but this seems a total waste to monitor, if that's what you thought I was doing?)
I had good control over disillate stream via coolant flow but had a very consistent abv throughout.

I'll do my reading though, try to learn more about reflux still controls and anything else I can about it, I'm really keen on figuring this out for the next run as I'd like to get the optimal cleanest output I can.
Thanks

[Yummyrum]

OK , thats good that you can almost stop the take off rate .
This is the point where the highest AVB will occur.

It is not an instantanious thing though . You must leave it like this for wt least15-20 minates . During this time , the packed column stabilises and the alcohol starts to fractionate in the packing , the highest and purest slowly making it’s way to the top .

If you keep fiddling with the coolant flow , the column never gets a chance to stabilise and a high abv won’t be achievable .

Most hime distillers will often leave the still in a full reflux state ( zero product being taken off ) for often 45-60 min to allow the column to stablize before they take off the first drop .

As we keep saying , it’s all about watching the output rate not what the thermometer says .

[Saltbush Bill]

Those boilers are suited to the still head power wise,
I wouldn't bother using the power controler.
Using less power will have the effect of less reflux which in turn can mean lower ABV.
Control your product output speed by adjusting water flow only.
You need to get this temprature thing right out of your head, tape over the temp gauge so you can't even look at it.
Learning to run it buy watching the output speed and varying the water flow will teach you a whole lot more and a lot quicker.
I suspect that your wash had not completed fermentation completely and that this may have been the real cause of the low ABV product.

[shadylane]

I've never operated a T-500 but I did take the time to read the manual.
The manuals advice to run the still based on the cooling water temp is bad.
Don't use the vapor and waste water temp, instead run the still based on the alcohol takeoff speed.
Slow takeoff equals high ABV, fast takeoff equals low ABV.
Figure out what takeoff speed is needed for the ABV you want.

Run as much power as you can get away with before puking starts.
Don't be bashful, run full power if you can.

On a side note.
As Salty pointed out if the final gravity was 1.015, the wash wasn't finished and there was less alcohol available to distill than you planned on.

[Yummyrum]

I wondered about the incomplete fermentation too.

But running a Birdwatchers in some calculators .
With an FG of 1.015 , it’s still got a ABV of 9.3%
That surely wouldn’t result in an output as low as 60% .

[Northsouth]

Never had a 500, but what you are describing almost 100% is about lack of reflux. Some geniuses here might prove me wrong, but with decent column as is the 500, even with a very low start (3-4% abv), you should be in the 90es or thereabouts.

[Yummyrum]

Never had a 500, but what you are describing almost 100% is about lack of reflux. Some geniuses here might prove me wrong, but with decent column as is the 500, even with a very low start (3-4% abv), you should be in the 90es or thereabouts.

I agree . I had considered that maybe the previous owner had disconnected the loop hose at the top and was only using it as a Pot , but Vanity says he can adjust takeoff rate by varying coolant flow . That says at least it must have some reflux action happening .

[Saltbush Bill]

wondered about the incomplete fermentation too.

But running a Birdwatchers in some calculators .
With an FG of 1.015 , it’s still got a ABV of 9.3%
That surely wouldn’t result in an output as low as 60% .

Yes your right Yummy , I cut my teeth on one of those little stills they will still be putting out 89-90 deep into tails with little ethanol left in the boiler.
I was thinking a very low abv wash, but even that would leave the still at a higher ABV.

[vanity]

Just to answer about the wash - I had made a few errors in the process so had moved containers and adjusted volume a few days in, hence I did not have an exact figure on ABV and had overshot the sugar, leaving some left over, but after a month fermenting I do believe I got a fairly high percentage on the wash.

I got about 3 litres out at 65% from just under 25 litres in the wash, so there was quite a bit of alcohol in there.

I'll be running again in a couple of days, now I've cleaned and repacked it, replaced the connection from the tap so I should have more control over smaller adjustments (previously I had to use the tap control itself), and I'll try either ignoring the temperature and plugging the hole, or sealing it with something else to prevent the air being introduced on the way out which may be causing some fluctuations or turbulence.

My next washes are all to-the-T birdwatchers recipes so I'll have an exact idea going in of what I'm starting with which may help. I was shocked at how much faster fermentation happened with inverted sugar, I lost 0.030 in under 24 hours, took me a week on my first batch

Thanks for the feedback everyone, I'll see if these changes help next time.

[Reefer1]

I still use my T500 now and again, i run mine at around 55 - 60c always get 90+ abv no problems at all, if your still hasnt been re configured in any way it should work as the instructs. Say.
I think as Salty says i would check the abv of your mash
Try a high alcohol mash 4 to 5 kg per 5 gal of sugar in your sugar wash as an experiment and run it see what you get out of your T500
There are some good neutral wash recipes you could try in the tried and true.

[vanity]

Update on todays run:
Using a standard birdwatchers wash, estimated at 10.5% in, running the still with no power controls going to it and an improved steady water flow (outputting at 42c) with a steady and slow drip coming out. I've also sealed the temperature reading hole on the output so there's no air being introduced in, as someone said this could be causing it to be more turbulant.

Still not passing 65% output.

I've been letting it stabilise for half an hour at this temperature and flow without any adjustments, I fear any lower on the output drip and I'd be here all day to collect a few litres so I'm thinking it must be something else resulting in this lower output.

I'm at a bit of a loss now as, as far as I can tell, I'm running this following all the advice I've been hearing. If I slow the water cooling rate to temperatures others suggest, the output flow I get it considerably faster, I cannot imagine this would increase the output ABV either.

Could I be dealing with faulty hardware, e.g. water leaking into the condensor dropping the output? Should I try a different column packing from the standard one? I can't see anything about this equipment that doesn't seem to be the standard equipment from everything I've researched.

[vanity]

I'd like to apologise for the time invested in this thread - thankfully it has taught me a lot, but I've been spending so much time on the equipment that I didn't think about what I'm testing it with.

I should have realised a cheap refraction based device that claimed to be able to read up to 100% could be way off. I had tested it on spirits between 20% and 55% and had accurate readings but I just diluted the output 1:1 with water and I'm getting 48%, so my actual output must be 96%.

I am incredibly embarassed now for the time taken up but I'd like to thank everyone for the advice as I've significantly improved my knowledge in the process.

[Tammuz]

That's how we all learn here is by reading other people's problems and how it was solved.

[MooseMan]

I'd like to apologise for the time invested in this thread - thankfully it has taught me a lot, but I've been spending so much time on the equipment that I didn't think about what I'm testing it with.

I should have realised a cheap refraction based device that claimed to be able to read up to 100% could be way off. I had tested it on spirits between 20% and 55% and had accurate readings but I just diluted the output 1:1 with water and I'm getting 48%, so my actual output must be 96%.

I am incredibly embarassed now for the time taken up but I'd like to thank everyone for the advice as I've significantly improved my knowledge in the process.

Well, it's a bit embarrassing but you learned plenty from it as you say. None of us thought to ask about the measuring device either remember!

And props to you for admitting your mistakes and apologising to us for it, I respect that.

Now, armed with your increased knowledge of how it should be run, and a little more confidence, you can start pushing the still to arrive at your max output speed at high purity.

Please try stripping and running a 30% wash though, that will improve your quality immediately.

[Saltbush Bill]

Buy an alcometer.