An easy little trick with hot oak

[MooseMan]

I'm sure the old hands are already doing this out of habit, but I thought I'd share a little trick that I've started using, for those new to Oak aging like myself.

So, have your oak prepared in whatever size and condition ready to add to your chosen spirit.

When you do a run, place a handful of oak on the boiler, under any insulation you have, or held along the riser or whatever.

During the run, the oak will get heated by the still long and slow, all the way through to the core, and really dehydrated.

As soon as you finish your run, drop that oak into the jar of your choice and, because it's hot right through to the middle and bone dry, it will immediately start to suck that spirit in like a thirsty tramp!

The colour change after only an hour, is way more obvious than if you'd just took previously prepared oak and dropped it in at ambient temp and humidity. And by the next day it's a big change. It's just getting a real headstart.

Try it out, it's not costing any more time or money, and it works.

[bilgriss]

Interesting. This wouldn't work with my approach to cuts, since I let the jars air out for a day or more before tasting, and I wouldn't want the oak to change the flavor of the previously untasted jar. And for color, I know I'm not going to bottle anything that hasn't aged for the next year to two or three, so a head start isn't going to help that either.

But I do see a lot of people looking at rapid-age approaches, and perhaps there's a place for this in some of those?

[MooseMan]

Interesting. This wouldn't work with my approach to cuts, since I let the jars air out for a day or more before tasting, and I wouldn't want the oak to change the flavor of the previously untasted jar. And for color, I know I'm not going to bottle anything that hasn't aged for the next year to two or three, so a head start isn't going to help that either.

But I do see a lot of people looking at rapid-age approaches, and perhaps there's a place for this in some of those?

Ah, again not great at explaining myself well...
When I say add to the jar of your choice, I mean to a previously selected, already carefully cut run, not necessarily the one run that day.

[Twisted Brick]

Ah, again not great at explaining myself well...
When I say add to the jar of your choice, I mean to a previously selected, already carefully cut run, not necessarily the one run that day.

It certainly makes sense if one makes a subsequent run right after cuts are made. Otherwise, a short stint in the oven (or microwave?) would do it.

[NZChris]

You could put it in a middle jar that is obviously going to make the cut.

[MooseMan]

Ah, again not great at explaining myself well...
When I say add to the jar of your choice, I mean to a previously selected, already carefully cut run, not necessarily the one run that day.

It certainly makes sense if one makes a subsequent run right after cuts are made. Otherwise, a short stint in the oven (or microwave?) would do it.

Yeah but the still is running anyway right!
That's what it's all about.

And I don't think the microwave will cut it.

[MooseMan]

You could put it in a middle jar that is obviously going to make the cut.

Definitely Chris.

I always take a "Best of the best" cut now, right in the very middle, that is not always the most flavoursome, but is the very cleanest.
This you could drop a bit of hot oak into, that will really wake it up!

[Salt Must Flow]

I get it, if the still is already running for 6+ hrs anyway, might as well make use of that heat. Alternatively an electric oven that has GOOD convection and good temp control should work to dehydrate the wood without toasting it further. I've done this with other materials that needed to be absolutely dehydrated before weighing (for quality control in manufacturing).

I wonder how effective a vacuum chamber would be at removing any moisture from the wood. Not everyone owns a vacuum pump & chamber, but it should be more energy efficient if it would actually work.

[MooseMan]

Yeah that's it exactly SMF, I'm always looking for ways to scrounge what I can from all that energy since I'm using it anyway.

I'd say a vac chamber would work, but not very efficient.

I think the fact I'm dropping them in bone dry AND hot off the still is making a difference though.

If I remember next time, I'll do a timed photo series of a jar after adding the hot staves.

[Yummyrum]

Sounds like a reasonable thing to do moose .
Kinda reminds me of the Microwave thing .

What ever works .

[bilgriss]

That makes far more sense. I don't currently have anything waiting for some oak, but perhaps I will give it a try when the time comes!

[The Baker]

I wonder how effective a vacuum chamber would be at removing any moisture from the wood. Not everyone owns a vacuum pump & chamber, but it should be more energy efficient if it would actually work.

Just suppose you warmed the wood somewhat (dead cold would work against the plan);
And suppose you had a strong jar with a wide mouth and a push-in seal (for quick and easy operation); (here, say a Moccona coffee jar);
And you warmed the jar with hot, not boiling water;

And then part fill the jar with boiling water, leave a short time, tip the water out, drop the oak in, and whack in the stopper.
And throw a cloth over it; retaining some heat without stopping condensation.

Hopefully the residual steam in the jar would condense, dragging some moisture out of the wood and warming it more in the process.

Yes? You could even repeat the process...After giving it time to work.

High tech, eh?

Geoff

[MooseMan]

I'm sure all of that would work Geoff, to an extent at least. Does sound a bit of a faff though.

All I'm doing is getting further use out of the energy that I'm already having to put into the still anyway.

Yes, I'm a tight ass!

[jonnys_spirit]

I'm not sure how quick a vacuum setup would do this. I keep my bulk storage wines in carboys under vacuum and when I add oak early on in the process it still takes a couple weeks to fully water-log (wine-log) the oak and have it sink. I will regularly top up the vacuum and air bubbles do come out of the oak - it just takes some time...

Cheers,
j

[NZChris]

It didn't take long for people to start posting more complicated methods

[MooseMan]

It didn't take long for people to start posting more complicated methods

Haha yes we all have a tendency to over complicate, I'm very guilty of it sometimes.

But this little edge just resulted from me being a tight wad Chris.

[NZChris]

None of the more complicated methods posted look any better to me.

[The Baker]

I'm sure all of that would work Geoff, to an extent at least. Does sound a bit of a faff though.

All I'm doing is getting further use out of the energy that I'm already having to put into the still anyway.

Yes, I'm a tight ass!

The explanation is much longer than the experiment.
Geoff

[MooseMan]

I've just read a couple of pages from a pro forum that Normandie Still posted a link to, and one key bit of information from a clearly well respected distilling consultant popped out at me.

"For brandies, it is customary for the newly distilled EDV (eau de vie) to only spend about 9 months to 1 year in new quecus Robur casks (i.e., French Limousin oak). Since this oak species has at least 10 times the amount of tannins and is much more porous than American white oak (q. Alba), it doesn't need much time on this oak before being transferred to used cooperage. The barrels sizes, at least in the Cognac world, are also 92 gallons/350 liters vs. the 53 gallon/200 liter American oak barrels (400 liters for Armagnac). During that first 9 months to 1 year or so, it would normally absorb all the barrel extractives that it needs for long term maturation."

Firstly, Quercus Robur is the same species as English Oak, that is very easy to get hold of around my place, in fact I have lots of it already. I did not know French Oak was the same species. As a wood turner I'm embarrassed to say that.

Secondly, and this is key, she says that the industry knows it's got at least 10 times the extractives of White Oak.
She is saying that 9 months to a year on new Q. Robur, is enough for long term ageing in a used barrel before they move it to used White Oak.
Definitely food for experiments with small amounts and short time on Q.Robur.

[NormandieStill]

I've just read a couple of pages from a pro forum that Normandie Still posted a link to, and one key bit of information from a clearly well respected distilling consultant popped out at me.

"For brandies, it is customary for the newly distilled EDV (eau de vie) to only spend about 9 months to 1 year in new quecus Robur casks (i.e., French Limousin oak). Since this oak species has at least 10 times the amount of tannins and is much more porous than American white oak (q. Alba), it doesn't need much time on this oak before being transferred to used cooperage. The barrels sizes, at least in the Cognac world, are also 92 gallons/350 liters vs. the 53 gallon/200 liter American oak barrels (400 liters for Armagnac). During that first 9 months to 1 year or so, it would normally absorb all the barrel extractives that it needs for long term maturation."

Firstly, Quercus Robur is the same species as English Oak, that is very easy to get hold of around my place, in fact I have lots of it already. I did not know French Oak was the same species. As a wood turner I'm embarrassed to say that.

I think that the reason it is called "French" oak is twofold. 1) Tradition. For ageing brandies you want (in general) less woodiness to avoid overpowering the often subtle fruit flavours. Since the UK didn't produce a lot (any?) of brandy the only way to source the larger volume barrels was to produce locally. So French oak was used to make French barrels for French brandy. 2) Availability. Quite simply, the UK no longer has any significant oak forest left. A few privately managed forests provide some oak for construction, but the production of the British navy decimated the forests and there was no move to re-plant them at the time. Since a lot of old forest land is no arable farmland, it's harder to make the case for planting a "crop" which will need 100+ years before the first harvest! * I suspect this is one of the reasons why scotch was aged in used bourbon barrels. It was cheaper to import a broken down barrel from the new world, than to buy a new barrel from a French cooper (who for historical reasons, was probably not overly-fond of the British anyway).

Just my take as a carpenter in France.
(* My local sawmill regularly exports a whole articulated lorry-load of oak to the UK for one of the large timber-framing firms there. Most oak buildings in the UK are made with French oak.)

Secondly, and this is key, she says that the industry knows it's got at least 10 times the extractives of White Oak.
She is saying that 9 months to a year on new Q. Robur, is enough for long term ageing in a used barrel before they move it to used White Oak.
Definitely food for experiments with small amounts and short time on Q.Robur.

I'm trying this with my apple brandy. 6 months on medium toasted fresh (French) oak sticks, then swapping them out for ones that have spent a year soaking in regularly changed neutral. Hopefully this should vaguely simulate the more complex process used by the French distilleries. If you really want to do as they do, don't just pull the old sticks and put in aged ones, put the aged ones into a fresh jar and pour the spirit over them. This will match the aeration that happens when they move the spirit between barrels.

[MooseMan]

I've just read a couple of pages from a pro forum that Normandie Still posted a link to, and one key bit of information from a clearly well respected distilling consultant popped out at me.

"For brandies, it is customary for the newly distilled EDV (eau de vie) to only spend about 9 months to 1 year in new quecus Robur casks (i.e., French Limousin oak). Since this oak species has at least 10 times the amount of tannins and is much more porous than American white oak (q. Alba), it doesn't need much time on this oak before being transferred to used cooperage. The barrels sizes, at least in the Cognac world, are also 92 gallons/350 liters vs. the 53 gallon/200 liter American oak barrels (400 liters for Armagnac). During that first 9 months to 1 year or so, it would normally absorb all the barrel extractives that it needs for long term maturation."

Firstly, Quercus Robur is the same species as English Oak, that is very easy to get hold of around my place, in fact I have lots of it already. I did not know French Oak was the same species. As a wood turner I'm embarrassed to say that.

I think that the reason it is called "French" oak is twofold. 1) Tradition. For ageing brandies you want (in general) less woodiness to avoid overpowering the often subtle fruit flavours. Since the UK didn't produce a lot (any?) of brandy the only way to source the larger volume barrels was to produce locally. So French oak was used to make French barrels for French brandy. 2) Availability. Quite simply, the UK no longer has any significant oak forest left. A few privately managed forests provide some oak for construction, but the production of the British navy decimated the forests and there was no move to re-plant them at the time. Since a lot of old forest land is no arable farmland, it's harder to make the case for planting a "crop" which will need 100+ years before the first harvest! * I suspect this is one of the reasons why scotch was aged in used bourbon barrels. It was cheaper to import a broken down barrel from the new world, than to buy a new barrel from a French cooper (who for historical reasons, was probably not overly-fond of the British anyway).

Just my take as a carpenter in France.
(* My local sawmill regularly exports a whole articulated lorry-load of oak to the UK for one of the large timber-framing firms there. Most oak buildings in the UK are made with French oak.)

Secondly, and this is key, she says that the industry knows it's got at least 10 times the extractives of White Oak.
She is saying that 9 months to a year on new Q. Robur, is enough for long term ageing in a used barrel before they move it to used White Oak.
Definitely food for experiments with small amounts and short time on Q.Robur.

I'm trying this with my apple brandy. 6 months on medium toasted fresh (French) oak sticks, then swapping them out for ones that have spent a year soaking in regularly changed neutral. Hopefully this should vaguely simulate the more complex process used by the French distilleries. If you really want to do as they do, don't just pull the old sticks and put in aged ones, put the aged ones into a fresh jar and pour the spirit over them. This will match the aeration that happens when they move the spirit between barrels.

Appreciate the detailed response NS and thanks for the link, both are enlightening reading!

Also I never really thought about aeration when moving product from one vessel to another.
I plan to do just what you are doing, but I'm planning 3 separate batches (Of CROW) of 0.5 gallon, with 1/2/3 sticks of Q.Robur for 3 months, then into fresh Demi's with used White Oak.

Now, I'll pour them in through a colander inside the funnel!

[MooseMan]

Thought I'd drop a couple of pics in here as I did this again today with hot oak.

This is directly after dropping them in.

And this is swirled a few minutes later.

[Copperhead road]

Hi Moose, don’t you Air your cut jars for a day or so before doing cuts and adding oak….

[8Ball]

So, have your oak prepared in whatever size and condition ready to add to your chosen spirit.

When you do a run, place a handful of oak on the boiler, under any insulation you have, or held along the riser or whatever.

+1. I do this to sorta re-toast my used oak. I set the wood on the propane burner next to the boiler towards the end of a rum run. I also don’t use the multiple jars & airing out cut method, but that’s outside the scope of this thread.

[MooseMan]

Hi Moose, don’t you Air your cut jars for a day or so before doing cuts and adding oak….

Not in the same way a lot of people do no.
I have a bit of a complex method but it works for me.

As 8ball said, it's out of context here so I won't go into it in detail now, but it involves a main overall cut, a "Heart of hearts" cut and a couple of outer banks jars that either get blended in at a later time or added to feints.