Shady's Sugar Shine

[shadylane]

A few minutes ago in desperation, I added another 1/2 cup or so more lime and a couple three big handfuls of shells. My pH keeps crashing. I am suspecting that my problems may come from not be using enough shells, even though I am following recipe (typically 1-1/2 cups crushed oyster shells for my 15gal batch).

Question: Is there such a thing as too many oyster shells / beach shells / marble?

1-1/2 cups works with my water, sounds like more crushed oyster shell will be needed for you.
Calcium carbonate is better at buffering the pH but not much good at correcting a crash.
To answer your question, if the pH is still too low you haven't added too much CC yet.
I'd crush the shell grit finer and double or triple the amount.

What are you using for water?

[NZChris]

Question: Is there such a thing as too many oyster shells / beach shells / marble?

It has been done, but not in an active ferment AFAIK. Smells like rotting flesh. Never add anything without allowing enough time for it to react and without checking pH. CC in any form is slower to react than slaked lime.

[PoolGuy]

I bought a 42 lb bag of Marble Rocks from Lowes, split it in half and use that much for each of my 45 gal fermentations. It works for me. Quite a bit cheaper than fancy Amazon crushed oyster shells. I assume that you re-use them batch to batch?

If I do the math, I come up with about 7lbs of Lowe's marble rocks for my 15gal ferment. Sound correct? Seems like a lot, but if pH crash due to lack of buffer is my problem, it might be worth a try. Lowe's is right up the road.

What are you using for water?

Very delicious to drink Appalachian mountain well water with a pH of 6.56. I feel fortunate to have it.

[Salt Must Flow]

I bought a 42 lb bag of Marble Rocks from Lowes, split it in half and use that much for each of my 45 gal fermentations. It works for me. Quite a bit cheaper than fancy Amazon crushed oyster shells. I assume that you re-use them batch to batch?

If I do the math, I come up with about 7lbs of Lowe's marble rocks for my 15gal ferment. Sound correct? Seems like a lot, but if pH crash due to lack of buffer is my problem, it might be worth a try. Lowe's is right up the road.

That's correct. I don't go by any sort of recipe as to how much Calcium Carbonate to suspend in a wash. I just bought a bag, split it and suspended what I had in the wash. I like it much more than Crushed Oyster Shell. People say oyster shell has more surface area because it's crushed into so many bits, but if you put it in a fine mesh bag, it just compresses against itself restricting flow and contact with the wash. Marble Rocks have larger gaps between each stone and allows flow-through and more contact in my estimation. You can also use a coarse mesh bag too.

[NZChris]

Learn how to use what you have available. I use whole shells that I collect from my local beach, but I also have suitable rocks collected from caves that will work just as well. If chicken grit was all I had available, I would use that.

My distilling adventure has always included opportunistic use of whatever is available at the time, vessels, materials, ingredients, information, tradesmen, other distillers, etc..

[Rusty Ole Bucket]

Man, sorry you're having such a hard time with this recipe, sounds like you have great water too.

I finished the spirit run last weekend on 40 gallons of Shady's wash made in 4 different batches with no issues at all. The first 2 were in 8-gallon conicals, the 2nd one started dropping on day 4ish and I added some pickling lime, and I was back in business. The 2nd two were in 14-gallon blue barrels and each had a big chunk of white marble in them. Those worked off great too, PH never dropped a bit on those, all 4 worked off to dry. After making cuts, I wound up with 3 gallons at 121 proof, and about a 1 1/2 gallons of heads and feints. I used boiled city water to get rid of the chlorine, otherwise it was Shady's recipe. Maybe your water is too good for plain ole' sugar shine?

I made some Berry Bon Bon over the weekend with what I turned out. (My wife doesn't like saying "Panty Dropper" so we're going to call them Bon Bon flavors. ) I've got 7 jars of stuff macerating in it in fact. I have a 1/2 gallon of strawberry, and quarts of blueberry, raspberry, blackberry, mixed berry (leftovers), Trolli gummy worms and Hot Tamales candy (the wife's favorite candy). The two candy ones I just have a small amount to see how they come out, the Hot Tamales doens't look bad, the Trollis look like trash can punch! The raspberry color looks AMAZING!

Rusty

[PoolGuy]

Thanks for the condolences Rusty, but I WILL figure this out. Next batch I plan to load up with marble rocks per Salt Must Flow. I am optimistic.

Thanks to all of the help I have received here on HD, lots of hand-holding by Haggy, patience and practice, I now run my SSS low and slow in a 2" packed column CM and produce super clean and sweet 95% natural. By the time tails show up, there is just about no alcohol left in the pot for collecting feints. Hail HD!

Your Bon Bon flavors sound like fun. So your wife's favorite flavor is "Hot Tamales" . I'm jealous.

[Rusty Ole Bucket]

Your Bon Bon flavors sound like fun. So your wife's favorite flavor is "Hot Tamales" . I'm jealous.

LOL, don't be!

She eats those things like popcorn. It actually smells pretty good, the color is CRAZY watered down a little, they look red, but it's really kinda orange and iridescent. Those and the Trolli got about a cup of Shady's on top of a handfull of candy. I've heard of guys making a fake peach brandy with the jelly rings so i thought I'd give it a try. Dollar store wild hair I guess.

Rusty

[DrivePole]

Could someone break this SSS recipe down for a 5 gallon run , like fermentation in 5 gallon bucket’s/pails?

[Salt Must Flow]

Could someone break this SSS recipe down for a 5 gallon run , like fermentation in 5 gallon bucket’s/pails?

The recipe is listed so it can be scaled to any size.

[shadylane]

My fermenter holds 20 gallons. So the recipe is based on that.
Since it's a sugar wash, I'll start with how much sugar to use
With bakers yeast, 1.5 pounds of sugar per gallon of wash is close to the upper limit.
For 20 gallons that means 30 pounds or less of sugar

Yeast needs neutients
I use yeast that has been boiled, epsom salt, multi-vitamins and DAP
Bring 1 gallon of water to a rolling boil, turn off the heat and stir in 1/2 cup of bakers yeast.
You can try heating the water to boil after adding the yeast, but that's likely to cause drama.
Add the boiled yeast, 8 crushed multivitamins and a big pinch of epsom salt and 3 tbs of DAP to the fermenter.
Top the fernenter off with water to the 20 gallon mark

pH control can be a problem with a sugar wash
A cup or two of crushed oyster shell/coral that's normally used as chicken feed helps for pH control.

I use a drill and paint stirrer to whip the fermenter into a tornado for aeration
Let it settle down for a minute
Then pitch a 1/2 cup fresh bakers yeast on top

Bakers likes to ferment at a constant 85F ish temp
Heating the fermenter from the bottom is best.
That helps the yeast keep the fermenter actively stirred up.

Figure 4 days to a week for it to finish fermenting and settle.

For 5 gallons divide the ingredients by 4
1.5 pounds of sugar per gallon of wash in 5 gallons = 7ish pounds.
Using more than 1/4th the boiled yeast, epsom salt, vits, oyster shell or pitching more yeast isn't a problem
But don't use too much DAP it can become toxic to yeast. It's better to give the yeast only whats needed.
If you don't have DAP use lots more boiled yeast.

[DrivePole]

Thank you , I’m planning to do my very first ever tomorrow.

[PoolGuy]

I STILL cannot get my SSS ferments to finish out. Here are some numbers from my two most recent batches

FB45: Started with 2T Citric Acid (5.86pH). About 12lbs of "Lowes" marble rocks on BOTTOM of fermenter.
12/15/2024 88F 1.068SG 5.86pH at pitching time.
Temperature held close to 83F throughout fermentation
12/16/2024 4.36pH
12/17/2024 4.01pH
12/18/2024 4.01pH
12/19/2024 1.012SG 3.96pH
12/21/2024 1.012SG 3.86pH
12/29/2024 1.012SG 3.86pH FINAL. DID NOT FERMENT OUT

FB46: Started without citric acid. 10# of now used "Lowes" marble rocks, this time suspended in course mesh bag. Also tossed in a handful of "used" beach shells from FB44.
12/29/2024 1.072SG 7.94pH 87F at pitching time
12/30/2024 4.46pH
12/31/2024 1.032SG 4.26pH 83.3F
1/1/2025 4.01pH
1/3/2025 1.020SG 4.01 83.3F
1/5/2025 1.018SG 4.01
1/7/2025 1.014SG 3.96pH 83F

It does not look like this batch will finish out either. Dang! I am seeking advice on what to try with my next batch to solve this problem.

As you can see, my pH is still dipping below 4.00. So do I continue to blame "pH crash" as the root problem? More marble rocks? Maybe double down with marble rocks AND oyster shells?

Lower pitching temp to actually get things off to a slower start?

Looking for advice. Again.

[Salt Must Flow]

I STILL cannot get my SSS ferments to finish out. Here are some numbers from my two most recent batches

FB45: Started with 2T Citric Acid (5.86pH). About 12lbs of "Lowes" marble rocks on BOTTOM of fermenter.
12/15/2024 88F 1.068SG 5.86pH at pitching time.
Temperature held close to 83F throughout fermentation
12/16/2024 4.36pH
12/17/2024 4.01pH
12/18/2024 4.01pH
12/19/2024 1.012SG 3.96pH
12/21/2024 1.012SG 3.86pH
12/29/2024 1.012SG 3.86pH FINAL. DID NOT FERMENT OUT

FB46: Started without citric acid. 10# of now used "Lowes" marble rocks, this time suspended in course mesh bag. Also tossed in a handful of "used" beach shells from FB44.
12/29/2024 1.072SG 7.94pH 87F at pitching time
12/30/2024 4.46pH
12/31/2024 1.032SG 4.26pH 83.3F
1/1/2025 4.01pH
1/3/2025 1.020SG 4.01 83.3F
1/5/2025 1.018SG 4.01
1/7/2025 1.014SG 3.96pH 83F

It does not look like this batch will finish out either. Dang! I am seeking advice on what to try with my next batch to solve this problem.

As you can see, my pH is still dipping below 4.00. So do I continue to blame "pH crash" as the root problem? More marble rocks? Maybe double down with marble rocks AND oyster shells?

Lower pitching temp to actually get things off to a slower start?

Looking for advice. Again.

I can't help but wonder if your Specific Gravity Hydrometer is reading correctly or not. Have you confirmed that your actual yield is low in comparison to what your yield should be if fully fermented? For instance if you are getting what you should get, I'd guess that the Hydrometer is reading incorrectly. If you find that your yield is actually lower than predicted, the Hydrometer is likely correct.

What type of bag are you using to hold the Marble Rock? A coarse mesh bag would be ideal to allow free flow access and contact with the rock. A fine mesh bag, cloth or a sock would restrict access.

I'm not saying this is your problem, but I always suspend my bag of Calcium Carbonate within the wash, approx half way. I've never tried letting it sit on the bottom. I have no idea if this makes any difference or not.

I've always used RO water (reverse osmosis water) for my sugar washes and never had any issues with stuck fermentation as long as I followed the standard protocols as outlined previously (lower starting ph with citric acid, add calcium carbonate, pitch yeast, maintain temp). People keep telling me I shouldn't use RO water and that yeast loves minerals. Well mine always ferments just fine. You've been doing this with well water (containing minerals), had success once, but something still appears wrong . That leads me to suspect whether the Hydrometer is wrong and fermentation went fine.

I don't know if this makes any difference, but are you using hard water or soft water (from a water softener)?

[PoolGuy]

Thanks for your help SMF. I was hoping to catch your eye.

I can't help but wonder if your Specific Gravity Hydrometer is reading correctly or not. Have you confirmed that your actual yield is low in comparison to what your yield should be if fully fermented?

What type of bag are you using to hold the Marble Rock?

I don't know if this makes any difference, but are you using hard water or soft water (from a water softener)?

Hydrometer reads 1.000 with water. Yield is indeed low compared to when I was "finishing out".

Marble rock bag is about 1/8" mesh. Pretty course. LOTS of bubble action coming up through the bag the first few days.

No water softener here. My well water measures 3 grains. It is my understanding this could be termed "moderately hard".

Another thing to note is that my resulting wash is pretty cloudy, and does not settle and clear like it does with a successful ferment. Even after sitting outside in cool weather for a couple of weeks prior to running, it is pretty cloudy.

My sanitation practices are not great. I wash and rinse my equipment well, but do not sanitize. I do not use an air lock. My lid has 1/16" cracks around it which I snug a towel over. I have had a fruit fly or two sneak in once or twice. That said, I am not aware of a germ, bug or infection that would cause the type of problems that I am having. But maybe I am wrong. That is why I am here on HD... to learn.

[Salt Must Flow]

Thanks for your help SMF. I was hoping to catch your eye.

I can't help but wonder if your Specific Gravity Hydrometer is reading correctly or not. Have you confirmed that your actual yield is low in comparison to what your yield should be if fully fermented?

What type of bag are you using to hold the Marble Rock?

I don't know if this makes any difference, but are you using hard water or soft water (from a water softener)?

Hydrometer reads 1.000 with water. Yield is indeed low compared to when I was "finishing out".

Marble rock bag is about 1/8" mesh. Pretty course. LOTS of bubble action coming up through the bag the first few days.

No water softener here. My well water measures 3 grains. It is my understanding this could be termed "moderately hard".

Another thing to note is that my resulting wash is pretty cloudy, and does not settle and clear like it does with a successful ferment. Even after sitting outside in cool weather for a couple of weeks prior to running, it is pretty cloudy.

My sanitation practices are not great. I wash and rinse my equipment well, but do not sanitize. I do not use an air lock. My lid has 1/16" cracks around it which I snug a towel over. I have had a fruit fly or two sneak in once or twice. That said, I am not aware of a germ, bug or infection that would cause the type of problems that I am having. But maybe I am wrong. That is why I am here on HD... to learn.

I do not sanitize anything either. I only rinse or wipe it off if something has cobwebs, collected dust or something that bothers me. If I see floating bugs I do remove them, more so because it bothers me than fear of contamination. I don't use an air lock either. I do 45-50 gal SSS ferments in 55 gal poly drums with the lid on it (no clamp), but the 3/4" port on the lid is left open to vent.

I know it's not Marble Rock vs Oyster shell. They BOTH work. Marble Rock was just a cheap source for a LOT of Calcium Carbonate that doesn't require a fine mesh bag to contain it.

The only other thing I can think of is to try RO water once and see if the water is the variable. I used to buy RO water from a local 'water care company'. I'd bring in my own buckets, fill them from their spigots, pay them and leave with full buckets. It's cheap enough to try. I used to do that for keeping aquariums and eventually bought my own RO unit to make my own water.

[NZChris]

I suspect that the problem is caused by something that you didn’t think was important enough to tell us. Is there anything that you did differently, or left out?

Having a lot of CaCO3 in the bottom of the fermenter may cause it to have high pH in the yeast bed. I’ve only used one to three large pieces, so not a lot of surface area.

[shadylane]

I suspect that the problem is caused by something that you didn’t think was important enough to tell us. Is there anything that you did differently, or left out?

Having a lot of CaCO3 in the bottom of the fermenter may cause it to have high pH in the yeast bed. I’ve only used one to three large pieces, so not a lot of surface area.

I totally agree "that the problem is caused by something that you didn’t think was important enough to tell us"

I'm thinking the "yeast bed" is a dead area of the fermenter, anything that's laying down there isn't making enough Co2 to keep it in suspension. The sludge on the bottom is where dead or dying yeast go to rest. Often there's sugar laying down there that isn't kept in suspension where the happy yeast are living and working. This is why I prefer to heat a fermenter from the bottom so convection currents help keep everything stirred up.

[shadylane]

...Hydrometer reads 1.000 with water. Yield is indeed low compared to when I was "finishing out".

...Another thing to note is that my resulting wash is pretty cloudy, and does not settle and clear like it does with a successful ferment. Even after sitting outside in cool weather for a couple of weeks prior to running, it is pretty cloudy.

Not clearing even after cold crashing sounds like an anomaly, when the yeast quits making Co2 the wash will begin to clear.
If the wash refuses to clear it sounds like there's something else going on.

You said hydrometer but by chance are you using a refractometer?
What else could you doing different from the original sugar shine recipe?
Start at the beginning and end when your pouring the wash into the pot.

[PoolGuy]

I am back again trying to figure out why my SSS is not finishing out. After 13 days, batch FB46 finished at 1.015. Today I am moving on to start FB48. One of the suggestions made was to try different water (RO water). I had no desire to venture out for water after a fresh snowfall last night. So in the spirit of hillbilly moonshines, I will be using mountain stream water rather than my well water. What could go wrong?

Here is the stream...

And my collection bucket...

Recent feedback suggested "that the problem is caused by something that I didn’t think was important enough to tell us". Here I will be walking through setting up this new batch, with lots of pictures, in the hopes that somebody might see something stupid that I am doing that causes my ferments to not finish. Here goes.

My stream water is cold at 43F, 1.000SG (hygrometer test) and 6.76pH

This is my 15 gallon fermentation barrel...

to be continued

[PoolGuy]

Here is my "hot box"...

It has an electric heat pad on the lower inside. It fits nicely around my fermentation barrel...

Pinch of epsom salt...

3T DAP...

1/3 cup yeast in 3/4gal boiling water...

to be continued

[PoolGuy]

2 cups oyster shells in mesh bag...

Another 1/3 cup yeast for pitching. I have not pitched yet as I am waiting for the water to come up to 80F or so.

The barrel gets closed up and covered. There is a thermostat which controls the heating mat in the hot box, with temperature probe that goes into the bucket, to maintain consistent temperature control during fermentation...

Snuggled up nice and warm for fermentation...

So will this batch finish out? Anybody see anything wacky?

[Yummyrum]

LOL , didn’t see you put any sugar in .
And Oxygenate it with a paint stirrer .

[PoolGuy]

Er, oh yeah. 22.5lbs Walmart white sugar. Guess that would make a difference.

My "stir-er"

[shadylane]

The fermenter is full and heavy now, but on future runs.
I'd raise the fermenter up off the floor several inches so warm air can get under it and heat the bottom.
A couple short pieces of 2x4 wood standing on edge would getter done.

Having the bottom warm instead of sitting on the cold floor, probably wouldn't make much difference in the final gravity.
But it will in how fast the wash finishes.

[shadylane]

Whats inside the mesh bag?

[PoolGuy]

A smaller finer mesh bag. It is a mesh bag originally used for hops in beer making. Loose open weave, just tight enough to contain the fine shells.

[PoolGuy]

Pitched yeast last night around 10pm, though the water was only up to 59F.

Going string this morning at 82F. pH already dropped to 3.96!

[Rusty Ole Bucket]

Are you inverting the sugar before you add it to the water? I added a little citric acid and simmered it for 30 minutes or so for all 4 batches I did last fall.

Rusty

[shadylane]

A smaller finer mesh bag. It is a mesh bag originally used for hops in beer making. Loose open weave, just tight enough to contain the fine shells.

I see a problem right there.
The fine mesh bag could be limiting the washes access to the shell grit.