SCD's Crow Bourbon

[Saltbush Bill]

I'll suggest that you don't use spirals or chips, they are said to have to much end grain, much better to use your own home made toasted oak sticks or another alternative.

[venkman]

In the East, (IYKYK)

WTF? Did you move?

LOL. Well, kind of.

Recent posts bumped this thread and I only just saw this. Deplorable, if you moved I have to ask... whence came you?

[Deplorable]

In the East, (IYKYK)

WTF? Did you move?

LOL. Well, kind of.

Recent posts bumped this thread and I only just saw this. Deplorable, if you moved I have to ask... whence came you?

Sometimes I wish we had a tiled sub-forum, but I don't know if there are enough of us on here.

[liquid_chris]

This recipe looked like a good one to try.....but something I did made it go just a tad wee sideways. First let me say I'm not a seasoned vet expert, but not a complete novice either. Aiming for 10 gallons of mash and knowing from experience all grains hold on to a bunch, I went 2.5 times the 5 gallon recipe. (exceptions were I used flaked corn from the feed store which I grind and cook a little longer. And I used Angel yellow label because I wanted to try it). Got a great starch conversion, but only ended up with 1.05 OG. Fermented down to 1.00, Squeezed the grain and only got about 8.5 gals into carboys to clarify. Lots of custard ( I like that term custard, picked it up in this thread) So Ive never run my 10 gallon pot still with only 7 gallons before but 1/2 gal in the thumper and that's all I had left. I didn't want to add any feints from previous whiskey runs because I didn't want to effect the taste. Yeah pot and thumper, I'm a one and done guy and that's probably where it went sideways.

I don't know if it's because it only had 7 gals in it, but after reserving my fores and heads I got two pint jars of very good tasting 148 proof then tails came in strong on the third jar and proof was dropping. Worst yield to date. BUT!!! I saved those grains figuring there had to still be a lot of goodness still locked up in em. Took about a gallon and a half or so of hot backset and melted 20 lbs of sugar, filled the fermentor back up, threw in a handful of bread yeast. About 10 days later did the damn squeeze thing again. More liquid and less custard this time. Ran it yesterday with 4 pints of the tailsy 140 proof from the previous run. Best tasting stuff off the spout I've ever made. Great yield. 152 proof straight thru 7 jars of hearts. After cleanup I poured some on rocks and water....wow. I can't wait to taste this in 6 month on oak. Except for a quick taste I put the whole quart of all grain on oak. I think that quick taste introduced me to oat mouth feel and what someone described a graham cracker, yeah i got that.

Next time The pot will be full and I will use feints and i'm thinking I'll get better yield from the all grain.

Advise to anyone else trying this recipe: Do a bigger batch. It's good.

[Deplorable]

This recipe looked like a good one to try.....but something I did made it go just a tad wee sideways. First let me say I'm not a seasoned vet expert, but not a complete novice either. Aiming for 10 gallons of mash and knowing from experience all grains hold on to a bunch, I went 2.5 times the 5 gallon recipe. (exceptions were I used flaked corn from the feed store which I grind and cook a little longer. And I used Angel yellow label because I wanted to try it). Got a great starch conversion, but only ended up with 1.05 OG. Fermented down to 1.00, Squeezed the grain and only got about 8.5 gals into carboys to clarify. Lots of custard ( I like that term custard, picked it up in this thread) So Ive never run my 10 gallon pot still with only 7 gallons before but 1/2 gal in the thumper and that's all I had left. I didn't want to add any feints from previous whiskey runs because I didn't want to effect the taste. Yeah pot and thumper, I'm a one and done guy and that's probably where it went sideways.

I don't know if it's because it only had 7 gals in it, but after reserving my fores and heads I got two pint jars of very good tasting 148 proof then tails came in strong on the third jar and proof was dropping. Worst yield to date. BUT!!! I saved those grains figuring there had to still be a lot of goodness still locked up in em. Took about a gallon and a half or so of hot backset and melted 20 lbs of sugar, filled the fermentor back up, threw in a handful of bread yeast. About 10 days later did the damn squeeze thing again. More liquid and less custard this time. Ran it yesterday with 4 pints of the tailsy 140 proof from the previous run. Best tasting stuff off the spout I've ever made. Great yield. 152 proof straight thru 7 jars of hearts. After cleanup I poured some on rocks and water....wow. I can't wait to taste this in 6 month on oak. Except for a quick taste I put the whole quart of all grain on oak. I think that quick taste introduced me to oat mouth feel and what someone described a graham cracker, yeah i got that.

Next time The pot will be full and I will use feints and i'm thinking I'll get better yield from the all grain.

Advise to anyone else trying this recipe: Do a bigger batch. It's good.

Interesting. From a 23 gallon ferment with 50# of grains, after squeezing and clearing I get about 19 to 20 gallons for the still.
I do 2 stripping runs, that yield 5 gallons of 30%. I add whatever I have set aside from another couple weeks of the custard resting. (Usually about 3 quarts.)
My spirit runs are about 6 gallons, and after cuts my keep is pretty consistently 1.5 gallons of 60%

[liquid_chris]

Yeah, I squeezed pretty well.. I use a sieve that fits on top of a 5gal bucket. Dip a sauce pan into the fermentor then use the bottom of the pot to press it thru. Has worked well for me in the past, but this stuff, even with rice hulls, didn't want to give up all the juice. I don't think I'll change anything next time, I'm just gonna have more, and feints to boost it. The success of the re-mash with sugar went so well I'm not so sure I want to try to get more out of those grains. I think the Angel yeast might have created more custard than I'm used to seeing. Why the hell didn't I just use the bakers yeast like the recipe called for?

[Dougmatt]

Yeah, I squeezed pretty well.. I use a sieve that fits on top of a 5gal bucket. Dip a sauce pan into the fermentor then use the bottom of the pot to press it thru. Has worked well for me in the past, but this stuff, even with rice hulls, didn't want to give up all the juice. I don't think I'll change anything next time, I'm just gonna have more, and feints to boost it. The success of the re-mash with sugar went so well I'm not so sure I want to try to get more out of those grains. I think the Angel yeast might have created more custard than I'm used to seeing. Why the hell didn't I just use the bakers yeast like the recipe called for?

I bought a pack of angel to do a side by side on this recipe. I just started up 20 gallons of “the normal way” and once it ferments out I will get going on 20g of Angel. I’ve never tried angel and IF it tastes even close then the no mash method would make my life EASY so hoping it works, but frankly not really expecting it will……

Regardless 20 more gallons in the fermenter on this one. It’s a great recipe!

I also put 1 x 5 gallons in another bucket replacing the 1/4 white and 1/4 red with 1/2 honey wheat this time…. Was wondering if adding a touch of sweetness would be interesting. Will keep it separate for a little while and probably blend it in later.

[NormandieStill]

And I used Angel yellow label because I wanted to try it). Got a great starch conversion, but only ended up with 1.05 OG. Fermented down to 1.00.

If you're using YLAY then the process and grain to water ratios are not the same as for a traditional mash. Also SG readings are meaningless as conversion and fermentation are happening in parallel. If you stopped because you got a 1.000 reading then you may have stopped before the process was complete.

[liquid_chris]

I'm kinda kicking myself for trying the angel yeast on this. Still not sure why I did. The person that gave it to me told me I should try it the next time I did an all grain. And I didn't put it in the write-up (never sure how much is too much info). when I racked it into the carboys it continued to bubble the airlocks for a couple of days so my guess is it actually finished below 1.00 but didn't check. i usually only test gravity at the beginning to see how close I come to my target. On the finish I wait for it to stop bubbling and taste dry. I'm a retired chemist who's done with scientific precision and lab notebooks. Just enjoying a fun hobby trying to make some decent hooch. This still came out very good, just had a couple of anomalies well deserved for not following the recipe.

[NormandieStill]

Gravity readings are basically meaningless with YLAY. The only use is to see when it stops changing. You can't calculate abv from the readings. If you've retired from measuring then you should get on well with the YLAY.

Are you sure it's the yellow label that you've got? They make other varieties which don't do starch conversion.

[Dougmatt]

Gravity readings are basically meaningless with YLAY. The only use is to see when it stops changing. You can't calculate abv from the readings. If you've retired from measuring then you should get on well with the YLAY.

Are you sure it's the yellow label that you've got? They make other varieties which don't do starch conversion.

Hey Normandie, have you (or anyone else) done a side by side of this (or any whiskey) recipe with YLAY vesus a standard mash process?

There seems to be conflicting information as to whether it’s “good” and “the same”. Some people seem to indicate the result has a “strange” or “wine like” flavor that doesn’t fit a whiskey profile.

I’m planning to do a side by side and age one jar of each final product the exact same way for a comparison, but curious if anyone has done it before.

[NormandieStill]

Hey Normandie, have you (or anyone else) done a side by side of this (or any whiskey) recipe with YLAY vesus a standard mash process?

Not yet. But if I can find the time to organise it, I'll be doing that for a batch of HBB. But we're getting badly OT here.

[Dougmatt]

Hey Normandie, have you (or anyone else) done a side by side of this (or any whiskey) recipe with YLAY vesus a standard mash process?

Not yet. But if I can find the time to organise it, I'll be doing that for a batch of HBB. But we're getting badly OT here.

Starting my YLAY comparison ferment while I still have 20G of CROW going with standard process. Will post compare here, but posted the plan for feedback in the YLAY thread here: viewtopic.php?p=7784156#p7784156

[Brtzz]

Did a 5 gallon batch of CROW as my first AG to finish out last season. I have tried my best to avoid over sampling that small jar of delicious. It still sits on a barrel stave, though it must have a hole in it or something.

Being the best thing I've made so far, yesterday and today I came back for an all in 40g batch to start Season 2. Learned a lot with the large batch method on propane, namely water is still heavy and small fittings don't flow enough water. Seemed to be ok in the end, my temp was a bit low to start but it was still 165F+ for 6hrs. Hit 150 this morning and watched in amazement again as a few bags of crunchy stuff melted corn pudding into liquid before my eyes. Starch test seemed good on the clear liquid, 1.055-1.06 SG temp corrected. Here's to my first 40g batch.

Thanks SCD for such a complex full product with a stupid simple process!

[Stump Lake]

Hey Brtzz, I'm in about the same stage of learning as you are. I move up to a large batch of CROW Bourbon on my last batch. All in all it turn out good. I have made a lot of smaller 5 gal batches that turned out good before I attempted to do a large batch. There is a whole nother level of difficultly when you move the same thing up to large batch. Hang in there it is worth the effort

[Brtzz]

There is a whole nother level of difficultly when you move the same thing up to large batch.

It was a fun time, though hectic. I hadn't planned on doing it Saturday, my original plan was to get everything out and cleaned up from the off season. About the time I looked at the keggle on the burner all nice and clean was when I decided to put the oats in the oven. Had a actually planned the event it would have gone much smoother with premeasured corn buckets, pre toasted oats, etc. All in all 10 out of 10, would do again. Unplanned 5 gallon batches are much more manageable haha!

[Biker24a69]

Look what I found a jar that had been in back of shelf forgotten sitting on some med + toast cubes bottled up half of what was there
Put in a fancy little flask swmbo got me while on the road

[samwell]

I'm looking to start this recipe but would be fermenting in multiple 5 gallon buckets rather than 6 gallon ones. I tried calculating this recipe scaled down, but it appears that the numbers aren't proportional when I compare my numbers to the 6 gallon example.

Does anyone have experience fermenting in 5 gallon buckets?

For example when I scaled this down to get the ingredients per gallon I got:

1.25 lbs corn per gallon water
0.225 lbs red wheat per gallon
0.225 lbs white wheat per gallon
0.225 lbs rye malt per gallon
0.075 lbs toasted oats per gallon

Adjusting this to be for 4 gallons of liquid in a 5 gallon bucket (just so i have headspace), I got:
5 lbs corn per gallon water
0.9 lbs red wheat per gallon
0.9 lbs white wheat per gallon
0.9 lbs rye malt per gallon
0.3 lbs toasted oats per gallon

Looking at the 6 gallon bucket example, my numbers seem very far off. Does anyone have advice or experience?

Thanks!
Samwell

[NormandieStill]

SCD has a habit (as do many here) of working to a final volume, rather than a water volume. That being said here is some maths:

Original recipe is 5 gallons total volume for 7lbs Corn, 1/2lb of oats, and a 1lb of each of each wheat and the rye.
Scaling down to 4 gallons total volume is 80% of the original recipe (4/5=0.8=80%).

So:
5,6lbs corn (7x0.
0.8lbs red wheat (1x0.
0.8lbs white wheat
0.8lbs rye
0.4lbs toasted oats. (0.5*0.

If you calculate the ratio of wheat to corn (for example) you get 0.1429. Multiply 5.6 by 0.1429 and you get 0.8 (give or take the rounding errors) which confirms that the grain ratios are the same.

My only doubt is whether the grain to water ratio remains the same through this method. But you should be pretty close.

[higgins]

...
Looking at the 6 gallon bucket example, my numbers seem very far off. Does anyone have advice or experience?
...

SCD has a habit (as do many here) of working to a final volume, rather than a water volume. That being said here is some maths:

Original recipe is 5 gallons total volume for 7lbs Corn, 1/2lb of oats, and a 1lb of each of each wheat and the rye.
...

When scaling down a recipe I also use total mash volume to be sure the batch will fit in my fermenter.

...
40 gallon Batch
50 lb Corn Meal
9 lbs Red Wheat Malt
9 lbs White Wheat Malt
9 lbs Rye Malt
3 lbs Toasted Oats*
...
I put the corn and toasted oats in the fermenter, and fill it up with 40 gallons of boiling water
...
5 Gallon Batch
7 lbs Corn meal
1 lb Red Wheat Malt
1 lb White Wheat Malt
1 lb Rye Malt
1/2 lb Toasted Oats

Put the corn and toasted oats into a 6 gallon bucket. Fill bucket up with boiling water.
...

Looking at the original 40 gallon recipe you'll see that 40 refers to the water volume, not mash volume. I'm assuming that the 5 gallon recipe also refers to water volume rather than mash volume, and that 'fill the bucket' means 5 gallons water since adding the malts later would overflow the bucket.

A pretty good rule of thumb when crafting recipes and determining mash volume is that a pound of grain occupies 1/8 gal of volume (2 lbs = 1 qt) when mixed with water. For most of the world that rule of thumb translates to 1kg occupies 1 liter. This rule has been very helpful during my 25 years of AG homebrewing & 4 years of AG stillin.

The original 40 gallon recipe calls for 40 gal water and 80 lb grain, which would make 50 gal of mash (40 + 0.125*80).

Normandie's math is good (percentage is right), but it needs to be applied to mash volume, not volume of water.
To scale for a mash volume of 4 gal divide 50 (original mash volume) by 4, which is 12.5, or 8%, so take 8% of each ingredient, including the water:

50 * .08 = 4 lbs corn (* .125 = .5 gal)
9 * .08 = .72 lbs red wheat malt (*.125 = .09 gal)
9 * .08 = .72 lbs white wheat malt (*.125 = .09 gal)
9 * .08 = .72 lbs rye malt (*.125 = .09 gal)
3 * .08 = .24 lbs toasted oats (*.125 = .03 gal)
40 * .08 = 3.2 gallons water

Total mash volume = 4 gal (.5 + .09 + .09 + .09 + .03 + 3.2), or 8% of the original 40 gal batch mash volume (which is 50 gal).

As an example, I just put together a mash yesterday (actually 2) of 50 lbs grain and 21 gal water in a 30 gal fermenter. My total calculated volume was 27.25 gal - the observed volume is between 27 and 28 gallons, about 4-5" below the top.

[samwell]

...
Looking at the 6 gallon bucket example, my numbers seem very far off. Does anyone have advice or experience?
...

SCD has a habit (as do many here) of working to a final volume, rather than a water volume. That being said here is some maths:

Original recipe is 5 gallons total volume for 7lbs Corn, 1/2lb of oats, and a 1lb of each of each wheat and the rye.
...

When scaling down a recipe I also use total mash volume to be sure the batch will fit in my fermenter.

...
40 gallon Batch
50 lb Corn Meal
9 lbs Red Wheat Malt
9 lbs White Wheat Malt
9 lbs Rye Malt
3 lbs Toasted Oats*
...
I put the corn and toasted oats in the fermenter, and fill it up with 40 gallons of boiling water
...
5 Gallon Batch
7 lbs Corn meal
1 lb Red Wheat Malt
1 lb White Wheat Malt
1 lb Rye Malt
1/2 lb Toasted Oats

Put the corn and toasted oats into a 6 gallon bucket. Fill bucket up with boiling water.
...

Looking at the original 40 gallon recipe you'll see that 40 refers to the water volume, not mash volume. I'm assuming that the 5 gallon recipe also refers to water volume rather than mash volume, and that 'fill the bucket' means 5 gallons water since adding the malts later would overflow the bucket.

A pretty good rule of thumb when crafting recipes and determining mash volume is that a pound of grain occupies 1/8 gal of volume (2 lbs = 1 qt) when mixed with water. For most of the world that rule of thumb translates to 1kg occupies 1 liter. This rule has been very helpful during my 25 years of AG homebrewing & 4 years of AG stillin.

The original 40 gallon recipe calls for 40 gal water and 80 lb grain, which would make 50 gal of mash (40 + 0.125*80).

Normandie's math is good (percentage is right), but it needs to be applied to mash volume, not volume of water.
To scale for a mash volume of 4 gal divide 50 (original mash volume) by 4, which is 12.5, or 8%, so take 8% of each ingredient, including the water:

50 * .08 = 4 lbs corn (* .125 = .5 gal)
9 * .08 = .72 lbs red wheat malt (*.125 = .09 gal)
9 * .08 = .72 lbs white wheat malt (*.125 = .09 gal)
9 * .08 = .72 lbs rye malt (*.125 = .09 gal)
3 * .08 = .24 lbs toasted oats (*.125 = .03 gal)
40 * .08 = 3.2 gallons water

Total mash volume = 4 gal (.5 + .09 + .09 + .09 + .03 + 3.2), or 8% of the original 40 gal batch mash volume (which is 50 gal).

As an example, I just put together a mash yesterday (actually 2) of 50 lbs grain and 21 gal water in a 30 gal fermenter. My total calculated volume was 27.25 gal - the observed volume is between 27 and 28 gallons, about 4-5" below the top.

Thanks Higgins! And thank you for doing the math for me too


I had no idea that a pound of grain occupies 1/8 gal of volume (2 lbs = 1 qt) when mixed with water. That’ll be extremely helpful in the future.


Cheers.

[samwell]

SCD has a habit (as do many here) of working to a final volume, rather than a water volume. That being said here is some maths:

Original recipe is 5 gallons total volume for 7lbs Corn, 1/2lb of oats, and a 1lb of each of each wheat and the rye.
Scaling down to 4 gallons total volume is 80% of the original recipe (4/5=0.8=80%).

So:
5,6lbs corn (7x0.
0.8lbs red wheat (1x0.
0.8lbs white wheat
0.8lbs rye
0.4lbs toasted oats. (0.5*0.

If you calculate the ratio of wheat to corn (for example) you get 0.1429. Multiply 5.6 by 0.1429 and you get 0.8 (give or take the rounding errors) which confirms that the grain ratios are the same.

My only doubt is whether the grain to water ratio remains the same through this method. But you should be pretty close.

I would say those numbers are pretty much right with higgins’ .

Thanks for the help Normandie.

[higgins]

...
5,6lbs corn (7x0.
...

It's interesting that when you type 8 and add a closing parenthesis it translates to this:

[samwell]

It's interesting that when you type 8 and add a closing parenthesis it translates to this:

HAHAHAHA I noticed that too but realized it was an 8 and a )

[NormandieStill]

It's interesting that when you type 8 and add a closing parenthesis it translates to this:

HAHAHAHA I noticed that too but realized it was an 8 and a )

It never even occurred to me to proof read it once posted. We live in an age where emoji are more common than basic maths! (that one was intentional)

[stardtek]

I got a question. I have a hard time getting red wheat malt. Can i do a substitution to add a bit more regular wheat malt and a bit of malted barley that is meant for red ale's or would that have too big of an impact on the flavour?

[Twisted Brick]

I got a question. I have a hard time getting red wheat malt. Can i do a substitution to add a bit more regular wheat malt and a bit of malted barley that is meant for red ale's or would that have too big of an impact on the flavour?

You are free to make any substitutions you wish, but the flavor will not be 'according to Hoyle' and be slightly different. Not bad or worse, just different.

[ShineonCrazyDiamond]

Work with what you can. Just add more regular wheat. The rye is there to add the hint of spice that the red wheat serves in my other bills. You'll be fine.

[stardtek]

Thank you very much. Will report back with my result