All grain vodka

[MooseMan]

I use the water from my condenser Nick, as hot as I can get it without my product getting hot at the spout.

So whilst I'm stripping, I will put grain in a vessel, then run the hot PC water onto it while I stir. I also add hot backset, but you may not want to do that as it adds flavour you may not want.
Then I wrap it up well and leave at least overnight to stew.
Pitch YLAY at 35c and keep it there., punching the cap down and stirring 3 times a day for the first week.

That's worked for me without fail.

[GrumbleStill]

...Personally I made a batch of neutral from wheat and YLAY. Stripped to 25% and refluxed it. I was surprised by how much flavour carried over despite the reflux and kept a couple of jars from the early hearts which had too much flavour for neutral as a sort of light whisky. YMMV but I found that as long as you're prepared to make several cuts which you can use for different purposes YLAY wheat makes a good neutral.

Well, I'm giving YLAY another chance. I'm planning to experiment with two different washes. One 100% oats (quick oats from the supermarket) and the other one 100% wheat (unmalted, but cracked whet from the brew store). Any tips for the wash? Do you bother using hot/boiling water and wait to cool down before pitching, or do you use just cold water?

Cheers,
Nick

100% supermarket quick oats with ylay is my go to vodka now. Boiling water straight on the oats, good stir, let it cool to around 36°C, pitch and follow daily stirring directions. Strip and spirit run. One note, run slow and make tight cuts. The hearts make a nice vodka, the feints do not

[Ridgeback816]

My go to vodka/ neutral base
50lbs corn
50lbs long grain rice
20lbs oats
Am1 yeast

Corn is whole is goes through a single pass on a corona mill then covered in 50/50 backset water mix sits overnight before mashing in
Rice is left whole also gets the same pre soak I have tried other kinds of rice (they do taste different) also tried milling but the roi was not there
Oats are flaked like quaker oatmeal just the cheap costco version

I strip on a 15 gallon pot with a 3 inch 3 foot column collect down to 15 abv off the spout but my total abv is around 50 so for the spirit run I have to add a bunch of water to get down to 35ish. My spirit run is done 3 inch column with sight glass 8 inches copper mesh rest packed with lava rock dephlag and a liebig condenser I run slowish 1.5 liters per hour

[nikolav]

I did as instructed, MooseMan. The two separate (one oats and one wheat)washes have been fermenting for the 3rd day now. The bubbling yesterday was crazy. The oat one made a mess on the underside of the cover of the 30l ferment, despite being only filled up to the 22l mark. So it works, I reckon
Lets see how it will turn out this time.
Meanwhile, the parts for my DIY mash tun stared arriving in the mail, so next one will be a proper mash.

[MooseMan]

I did as instructed, MooseMan. The two separate (one oats and one wheat)washes have been fermenting for the 3rd day now. The bubbling yesterday was crazy. The oat one made a mess on the underside of the cover of the 30l ferment, despite being only filled up to the 22l mark. So it works, I reckon
Lets see how it will turn out this time.
Meanwhile, the parts for my DIY mash tun stared arriving in the mail, so next one will be a proper mash.

Sounds like it's doing its thing then!

Keep punching that grain cap down as long as it keeps forming. You'll know when to stop as it will suddenly just stay at the bottom.
Then when it's done, let it get as cold as you can for a couple of days to drop clear, then get it off the grain and let it clear again, or try what Salt Must Flow does and clear it with bentonite clay. He's posted about it giving lots of great details.

A couple of other things that might help to take flavour out.
Dilute to 30Abv with RO water for the reflux run
Keep your column in full reflux for a long time at the start of the run, then take heads off painfully slow
Dilute your high proof product with RO water
You can also mess with the pH but I wouldn't recommend that until you have a full understanding of what and why

I don't make vodka, I use my neutral mainly for gin, but I've read that commercial vodka makers add things like citric acid, sugar and glycerol to NGS.

[Osse87]

...You mention that you tasted "Sour" at the end of the ferment.
Did you then run that sour finished ferment through your reflux setup as it was? Should've I done something different?

Yes, I didn't throw that away.
For the bad aftertase, I wonder if I went into the tails too far. I redistilled this again yesterday and removed some more tails. Will give it a try in a couple of days to see if it got any better now and if it lost a lot of the taste.

This was m y first ever distillation of something different from a sugar wash, so I guess the chances of screwing the cuts is/was very high.

Sorry Nikolav, I should have been more clear.

When the YLAY ferment was finished, did you?
Let it clear as much as possible before putting into the still.
Strip the cleared wash in a pot still setup, to get it off all of the bad flavours from the ferment.
Put the stripped low wines into your reflux still, diluted to 30% and run at 95% ABV+
Research, and practice, the best way to run a reflux still to get clean product.

If you did all of these things, I believe you would make a very nice quality product from wheat and oats using YLAY. I have.

Hey moose, does the dilution of the low wines make a better end product? I think I've read some even dilute down to 20% abv for their spirit run (shady I think?). The few runs I've had with lowines thus far (been running straight from wash before I got my stripper) I've been diluting my low wines with concentrated feints to increase abv just below 40% or to where the mixture won't catch fire when I try lighting it in a spoon. With that approach I was shooting for biggest yield out of a spirit run but maybe not the best practice.

[MooseMan]

Oh yeah you've definitely been making things hard for yourself!

Diluting your low wines for a reflux run will help to keep the tails back for as long as possible, the bad things (That we don't want in a neutral) that are in tails basically stick to water.
Diluting with water will reduce the smells and tastes that you don't want in a vodka.

Run your low wines by themselves diluted, and keep storing your feints until you've got enough to do a full run and, hopefully by this time you will have more experience to get the most out of a feints run.

By the way, keeping heads from reflux runs is ok, but if you're running your reflux correctly, the tails should be so smelly you don't want them, except maybe the very first bit when your proof drops after hearts.

[Osse87]

Oh yeah you've definitely been making things hard for yourself!

Diluting your low wines for a reflux run will help to keep the tails back for as long as possible, the bad things (That we don't want in a neutral) that are in tails basically stick to water.
Diluting with water will reduce the smells and tastes that you don't want in a vodka.

Run your low wines by themselves diluted, and keep storing your feints until you've got enough to do a full run and, hopefully by this time you will have more experience to get the most out of a feints run.

By the way, keeping heads from reflux runs is ok, but if you're running your reflux correctly, the tails should be so smelly you don't want them, except maybe the very first bit when your proof drops after hearts.

Thanks! I've only once been really happy with a run, and that was straight from wash funnily enough (I think tffv).

I've just removed about 25% of the stainless steel scrubbers from my column, might have packed it too hard before. Hoping to get a better result at faster take off when I try it next time (thus far I've got around 550 ml/h out of my 48 mm internal diameter column and I get the feeling with less packing material and more heat input i can get better purity and faster output).

At what % do you stop collecting low wines for a neutral before diluting ? Both average abv and if you've also kept track of the abv of the last drops coming out of your stripper would be of help. I've tried stopping at around 35% or just under 10% on the last drops coming out.

Unfortunately I have no way as of now to measure the drop in abv after hearts into tails, I'm going purely by column temp rise and smell/taste when I dilute it to what I hope will be a drinkable product.

[howie]

Thanks! I've only once been really happy with a run, and that was straight from wash funnily enough (I think tffv).

I've just removed about 25% of the stainless steel scrubbers from my column, might have packed it too hard before. Hoping to get a better result at faster take off when I try it next time (thus far I've got around 550 ml/h out of my 48 mm internal diameter column and I get the feeling with less packing material and more heat input i can get better purity and faster output).

At what % do you stop collecting low wines for a neutral before diluting ? Both average abv and if you've also kept track of the abv of the last drops coming out of your stripper would be of help. I've tried stopping at around 35% or just under 10% on the last drops coming out.

Unfortunately I have no way as of now to measure the drop in abv after hearts into tails, I'm going purely by column temp rise and smell/taste when I dilute it to what I hope will be a drinkable product.
[/quote]
i have a 51mm/2" column and, for refluxing, i have 4 rolls of copper mesh at the top.
the rest of column is rammed (and i mean rammed) full of SS scrubbies.
the test is, if you can still breath through it, it's ok.
so by removing packing you are reducing the surface area and together with increasing heat, i don't know how that is going to improve things.
a 2" column usually produces about 1.2 - 1.5 L per hour in the drip/drip/dribble mode.
i haven't had to dilute low wines for years, i collect the strip until the whole collection is 40% abv (start at 65%,finish about 15%)
also try and strip with copper in the vapour path and smell the difference.

[Osse87]

Thanks! I've only once been really happy with a run, and that was straight from wash funnily enough (I think tffv).

I've just removed about 25% of the stainless steel scrubbers from my column, might have packed it too hard before. Hoping to get a better result at faster take off when I try it next time (thus far I've got around 550 ml/h out of my 48 mm internal diameter column and I get the feeling with less packing material and more heat input i can get better purity and faster output).

At what % do you stop collecting low wines for a neutral before diluting ? Both average abv and if you've also kept track of the abv of the last drops coming out of your stripper would be of help. I've tried stopping at around 35% or just under 10% on the last drops coming out.

Unfortunately I have no way as of now to measure the drop in abv after hearts into tails, I'm going purely by column temp rise and smell/taste when I dilute it to what I hope will be a drinkable product.

i have a 51mm/2" column and, for refluxing, i have 4 rolls of copper mesh at the top.
the rest of column is rammed (and i mean rammed) full of SS scrubbies.
the test is, if you can still breath through it, it's ok.
so by removing packing you are reducing the surface area and together with increasing heat, i don't know how that is going to improve things.
a 2" column usually produces about 1.2 - 1.5 L per hour in the drip/drip/dribble mode.
i haven't had to dilute low wines for years, i collect the strip until the whole collection is 40% abv (start at 65%,finish about 15%)
also try and strip with copper in the vapour path and smell the difference.
[/quote]

What are the 4 rolls at the top for? Inside a reflux condenser? I'm a little surprised about how little difference the 25% less scrubbies made when breathing thru the column, I was expecting more difference making it relatively easier to breath thru, its not hard to breathe thru it but requires a little force, almost the same as before IRC. I think if I got it to 1,2-1,5 liters an hour it would taste like rocket fuel. Every time I've lowered output until this point I think I could detect a better taste, but I dont trust my senses when doing a run either. Many times it's been tasting good I think then when I air, blend and dilute the product with water it's not as good as I hoped for when just sampling during the run.

I have a 22mm copper pipe as stripper with a liebig condenser, my column is SS and SS scrubbers, but with copper RC, takeoff pipe and product condenser. I hope this is enough copper in the vapour path. The one time I got the product very good when cooking the wash directly my friend said "it taste as good or better than russian standard platinum", I have not tasted that specific one but I have russian standard, and I consider it good vodka.

I'm sorry to the OP for the off-topic derailing!

[SW_Shiner]

How tall is your column, and how much power do you use during a run? Should definitely be able to get at least 1L per hour without any noticeable drop in quality.

[Osse87]

How tall is your column, and how much power do you use during a run? Should definitely be able to get at least 1L per hour without any noticeable drop in quality.

My column is very tall, 165 cm/65" tall packed area with about 450-500 (little over one pound) grams worth of scrubbers. This is a 1:34 ratio width:heigth if my calculations is correct. I'm not really sure about power input, I've tried various settings. My wall outlet says 234 volts, I have a voltage regulator for my 2200w element and before I removed about 25% of my packing I measured 120-130 volts while taking off heads, and increased heat up to around 160 volts when taking off hearts. But I also read here on the forum that you can't necessarily trust a cheap ordinary voltage meter to measure.

My column has a copper reflux condenser at top but no centering rings, I'm paying attention to keep it as vertical as possible during a run, not leaning any direction.

[SW_Shiner]

That should be able to run at at least 1L per hour. My first still was a 2" boka only about 120cm high, including the boka head. Unsure about scrubber content as i just kept shoving them in without taking note of how many there were. With a 2000w element i was able to get just over 1.2L per hour if a remember correctly.

[shadylane]

At what % do you stop collecting low wines for a neutral before diluting ?

I don't end the strip based on anything measurable such as ABV.
I stop when oil begins to form on top of the lowines or it begins to get cloudy.
This is obviously wasteful, but keeps the majority of the nasty tails in the boiler.

[Osse87]

At what % do you stop collecting low wines for a neutral before diluting ?

I don't end the strip based on anything measurable such as ABV.
I stop when oil begins to form on top of the lowines or it begins to get cloudy.
This is obviously wasteful, but keeps the majority of the nasty tails in the boiler.

Are these oils apparent as colours like petrol/diesel on water or like cloudy/non coloured patches on top? Cloudy patches I've seen sometimes but I would not call it oily looking, but it might be oil just I dont recognize the looks of it. It sounds on you like this appear when ABV is quite high due to being wasteful? If the transition into oily surface is easy to notice I could use this as an indicator to when to stop. When you say cloudy, do you mean cloudy patches on the surface or also in the product? Thanks!

[SW_Shiner]

I strip to the same conditions. Generally when i see the oils, it can be similar to seeing a slight rainbow sheen, not unlike a small puddle with some fuel contamination. It also sometimes appears as almost like a "dusty spot" forming on the surface. The cloudiness generally slowly builds until it is noticeably not a clear liquid anymore. Kind of like a diluted lemonade, not sprite, but like a proper small batch lemonade.

[howie]

I have a 22mm copper pipe as stripper with a liebig condenser, my column is SS and SS scrubbers, but with copper RC, takeoff pipe and product condenser. I hope this is enough copper in the vapour path. The one time I got the product very good when cooking the wash directly my friend said "it taste as good or better than russian standard platinum", I have not tasted that specific one but I have russian standard, and I consider it good vodka.

I'm sorry to the OP for the off-topic derailing!
[/quote]
perhaps a mod can move these posts to new area, i'd like to keep the all grain vodka on track.
meantime, i think you need to evaluate your methods, it doesn't sound as if you're far off tbh.
some basics.
let the wash clear, when TTV hits 0.990 it's not over for the yeasties.
do you insulate your column?
do you spend 30-50 mins in full reflux, getting your column into stratification before beginning take-off?
do you meddle with power and cooling settings too much mid run?
is your water supply big enough, therefore supplying coolant at a consistent temp?
power controller?
my column has 4 x 100 mm rolls of copper + the SS scrubbies.
doing basic maths, i think removing your scrubbies reduces the available surface area.
my simple 2" column produces very clean 96% ethanol at 1.5l/hr with very compressed heads and tails.
it wasn't like that before making several tweaks to my methods and equipment

[MooseMan]

At what % do you stop collecting low wines for a neutral before diluting ?

I don't end the strip based on anything measurable such as ABV.
I stop when oil begins to form on top of the lowines or it begins to get cloudy.
This is obviously wasteful, but keeps the majority of the nasty tails in the boiler.

Just skim read the last few posts here and felt I should respond to this Shady. (Stopped posting as I felt I was helping to derail and felt guilty. Sorry)

When stripping wash that's intended for neutral, I've started to do the same, and usually find that I'm cutting off the "Neutral" strip due to the oily film, around the 25% abv area.
However, I will then switch to my feints container and continue to strip down to 10% to retrieve that last bit of alcohol. I find that since I have so much high proof heads in the feints collection, that bit of low proof strip doesn't do any harm ABV wise.

[shadylane]

When you say cloudy, do you mean cloudy patches on the surface or also in the product? Thanks!

Depending on the mash recipe, the first fusel oils will float on the surface of the low-wines.
As the tails build up even farther the low-wines will get progressively cloudier.

When to quit collecting low-wines depends on a lot of variables.
Mostly on when the quality of the low-wines starts getting nasty.
It only takes a tiny amount of tails to pollute a good vodka so I end the strip when fusel oil appears.

[Northsouth]

I have tried wheat (horsefood) and YLAY to make vodka a number of times. First run with a faster reflux giving 93-95 ish % ABV. Then dilluted to 25% and re-run slowly, now at 95.5-96% ABV. Not too bad, but a bit sad. Also keep some hearts from first run that can be blended. That makes it better, but not yet the real deal, in my view. There is just too much going on compared to what a North European from the vodka-belt is expecting.

The perfect vodka is my white whale. The closest I have come is this:

Take any faints, sugar wash, even turbo, whatever. Run it at min. 95 ABV, take cuts. Now, dillute to 30 ABV. Filter with active carbon. Run it again at 95. Take cuts, filter at 30 ABV again. This should now be relatively close to pure ethanol, at least in smell and flavor.

In parallell make a whiskey. Single malt is good. Take the faints and some of the early hearts (after spirit run) and mix with the other, say 1 part whiskey, 5 parts 30% filtered ethanol.

Run the whole thing again, slowly at highest ABV possible, take tough conservative cuts with small jars, this is key.

Now you should have a vodka that qualifies as at least "drinkable" in my outmost humble view. Discrete, smooth, some sweetness, no nasty.

[nikolav]

Northsouth, that sounds interesting, but I have a slight problem with this. I'm running a T500 still and I can't get more than 93% temp calibrated no matter what.
And when you say faster reflux, do you mean running at higher temp, power or removing some of the scrubbers?
BTW, I redistilled my YLAY wheat/oat vodka and it did tasted better. Maybe I just made better cuts this time.

[Saltbush Bill]

I redistilled my YLAY wheat/oat vodka and it did tasted better. Maybe I just made better cuts this time.

Stripping wash first and then a slow spirit run with a t500 will produce pretty clean spirit at 93%..not perfect but pretty damn good.


.

[nikolav]

I redistilled my YLAY wheat/oat vodka and it did tasted better. Maybe I just made better cuts this time.

Stripping wash first and then a slow spirit run with a t500 will produce pretty clean spirit at 93%..not perfect but pretty damn good.


.

I always do a stripping run first. In this case I'm talking about a second spirit run.
This YLAY vodka was my first attempt to do something different than a sugar wash. Again, maybe I went too far away into the tails.

I know taste is very subjective, but now when I taste the YLAY vodka next to a TFFV, I prefer the former. But still can't really taste any of the grain. Could be just me though. My mate tested it between the two spirit runs and asked if I was trying to make a whiskey.

[Northsouth]

Northsouth, that sounds interesting, but I have a slight problem with this. I'm running a T500 still and I can't get more than 93% temp calibrated no matter what.
And when you say faster reflux, do you mean running at higher temp, power or removing some of the scrubbers?
BTW, I redistilled my YLAY wheat/oat vodka and it did tasted better. Maybe I just made better cuts this time.

By Fast reflux, what I do is run the combination max power input with minimum reflux cooling water. Never had a T500, but I believe you can split the cooling for the reflux condenser and the product condenser so that you can control them separately.

For max ABV, it is max reflux and power enough to give a steady drip. Slower (with max reflux cooling) gives higher ABV, at least in my equipment. However, if cooling water is very cold, you might need so much power that you will flood, so there is a balance there.

The T500 at 93% should be more than able to do this job,you might have to adjust down the amount of re-blending, that is all. My point is just that Vodka is easier done and controlled at home with the mix of clean ethanol re-distilled together with with the flavor you wish. It is kind of the same principle as gin, just that we want very little taste for Vodka.