Taste compares : Standard Mash versus YLAY

[Dougmatt]

Not sure about the best place for this, but I wanted to start a new thread specifically to document & collect anyone’s thoughts comparing YLAY to standard mash yeasts.

I’m just working through a side by side of SCD’s CROW recipe. One standard mash with DADY yeast, and an identical YLAY ferment.

Here’s my YLAY CROW process:

20 Gallon Batch
28 lbs Corn meal
4 lb Red Wheat Malt
4 lb White Wheat Malt
4 lb Rye Malt
2 lb Toasted Oats

42 pounds or 19kg

Put all grains ground to flour into single fermentation vessel (25G)
Add hot water (my tap can get to 130+F)
Allow to cool to 90F
Pitch 100g YLAY
Maintain the temperature to be 85°F or so
Stir twice every day in the first three days.

I’ve just finished the spirit run on the traditional (same recipe as give, done just like SCD recipe) and now doing strip run on this. Smells very different on the strip. Hope to get to spirit by next week and will provide tasting notes of white side by side. Plan to age a similar cut on glass of each to taste over time.

Hoping anyone else doing this (or thoughts on similar) would share.

So far one thing to note, I am getting approximately the same amount of alcohol produced out of each batch strip which indicates to me a similar beer abv. Some people say their “conversion” with YLAY is better, but I am not seeing that. There may be slightly more coming through but not macro detectable.

I also ended up with about the same amount of beer ( a little more usuable from YLAY it seems as the “curd” from today after squeezing is less.

[subbrew]

That you for furthering the knowledge here

[scubatech]

I'll throw in my 2 main protocols.

1. Course grind grains, slightly larger than grits and sifted in a 600 micron mesh filter to remove most of the dust responsible for the mud/curd. Mix with 100F water and pitch YLAY. Ferment at 90F and squeeze grains through BIAB when finished.

2. Grind grains to flour and mix with boiling water. Mix for 20 minutes and top up with water, adding liquid enzymes at appropriate temps. After conversion of starches/sugars, siphon off of sludge and pitch whatever yeast you prefer, fermenting at appropriate temp.

I really haven't noticed much difference in taste either way. HBB, CROW and Dark Chocolate Bourbon all taste pretty similar. My taste buds aren't the greatest but I tend to get more differences by changing aging processes more than anything else.

[Dougmatt]

Finished my spirit run on the YLAY version last night, and did the blend today. I had two previous regular spirit runs that I help to blend at the same time but they were run a week earlier. Very early comparison notes attached.

First observations:

Running comparison:
Cut points: more heads in the YLAY. There was a larger volume of heads but only about 10% more. Also while I don’t watch temp,

On my still, I find there is a point at a much lower temp where you get a little spurt. Then it warms up about 5 degrees F and the drips start. The “spurt” on today was about 50ml where I’m used to like 10ml…. Who knows , but thought it worth mentioning.

I also had the impression there was also a funny aroma coming off the new make at still time, but it disappeared over night.

The Blend comparison:
There was a slightly larger Final Cut. This could have been collection vessel cut volume related but I ended up with 10% more hearts in this blend than my previous 2 regular blends.


The taste comparison. These were basically blended at the same time, but the regular is a week or so older. I diluted to 60%, and 43% for tasting. The 43% gave a wider
Compare so these are notes on that.


YLAY:
Nose;
- slight background grain note
- ethanol
- weak nose, really had to search for things

Palate:
- biscuit
- corn
- general sweetness
- much lighter flavor than standard process

Regular:
Nose
- grain
- grass
- biscuit
- much bolder than ylay

Palate:
- grain
- bread
- biscuit
- pepper
- much stronger flavor
- a lot more breadth and complexity


Some of this weak versus bold I guess could be timeline, but I’m used to this recipe having a lot of grain when I blend it. I really had to hunt for it in the ylay.


Looking forward to seeing how this develops on oak. Going to oak in glass with same volume on same piece of oak cut in half….

[Saltbush Bill]

Good work Dougmatt.....always interesting to see other perspectives.

[Dancing4dan]

Good write up! Nice to see side by side comparison.

It is interesting that you are seeing milder flavour and aroma after distillation. Several people have complained about strong objectionable flavours with YLY. I have never had that problem with YLY

Controlled ferment and distillation make a huge difference.

Well done.

[Dancing4dan]

Dougmatt, was there any difference in fermentation times between YLY and your standard process?

YLY will continue to idle along for several days after fermentation has slowed down and I let it continue until it completely stops. During this part of the ferment temperature is allowed to drop to room temperature. 20* c

[Dougmatt]

Dougmatt, was there any difference in fermentation times between YLY and your standard process?

YLY will continue to idle along for several days after fermentation has slowed down and I let it continue until it completely stops. During this part of the ferment temperature is allowed to drop to room temperature. 20* c

I let each ferment go for over a month and settle. With YLAy I kept the temp around 85 for the first 2 weeks then allowed it to come to room temp (~70F). I did similar with the standard process but less attention to detail.

One thing I didn’t note in the above comparison was the amount of curd in the squeezed grain of the standard process is / was MUCH higher which I clear out before running. And may be where the net volume difference comes from (probably is).

Spent some time with both samples yesterday. As an off the still white I think it nets out to the standard process tasting like a rich white bourbon, the YLAY tastes “less”. Using the standard as a reference then the YLAY is weaker on the nose and palate, and loses a lot of the standard white CROW whiskey notes especially the rye. I don’t get the grassy, peppery notes of early rye, and the bready, biscuit of the wheat is muted to me.

Not saying I dislike the YLAY and looking forward to it developing. I’ve got 2 badmo’s and will age them side by side for awhile too. Still going to do 800ml of each on oak dominoes cut from the same wood stick to eliminate the variability of wood / barrel.

Interestingly my favorite of the tastes was a blend of the 2 . I may end up blending some but will let them age separately for now.

[The Booze Pipe]

Thank you for the test results. It makes me think the YLAY is better suited for making all-grain vodka. It sounds like the yeasts in the YLAY doesn't produce as much tasty esters... which DADY is a fairly "light" yeast it's self!

[Steve Broady]

Very interesting, Dougmatt. Thank you for that. Moving forward, so you see yourself using YLAY again? I know you were excited by the possibility of simplifying mash day. Is it worth it?

[Dougmatt]

While not a taste compare, I think this is incredibly interesting.

On the left is standard and right is YLAY.

Color difference is stark.

Also the curd in the standard is about 1/3 the total from a 20 gallon ferment and the YLAY curd is about all of it….

[Dougmatt]

Very interesting, Dougmatt. Thank you for that. Moving forward, so you see yourself using YLAY again? I know you were excited by the possibility of simplifying mash day. Is it worth it?

I’ve got another 20G going already (gotta use up the yeast so I guess I will keep using it for awhile. Looking forward to the next SE meetup to share these 2 with you guys. Also interested to see if the results are the same. I’m tweaking at temps a little this time.

I also wanted to post a net time savings as well since that was my key interest:

Mash day
I use the no cook mash method of pouring boiling water over the corn, gelling by wrapping and stirring over 3 hours or so. waiting for mash strike temp, mashing in (and enzymes sometimes), then wrapping overnight until I hit pitch temp (or cool it down).

This process takes about 18 hours, and it’s a lot of energy (electric or gas), and a TON of effort stirring, baby sitting, etc.

For YLAY, my hot water out of one of my taps runs about 140 Process is basically dump all the grain in and pour on hot water. Stir, cover in blankets and wait for pitch OR cool it down.

This saves about 4 hours unless I cool it down which I do with YLAY but not usually on the mash as I’d prefer to let it run. It is also LOT less effort and energy.


Other:

There is also a lot of time and manual effort savings taking the ferment off to beer as the squeezing of the YlAY took less time and left a lot less curd to deal with.

Baby sitting the ferement took more effort with YLAY as I had to stir twice a day which I don’t always do with my standard mash.

Finally while I typically let stuff sit for at least 3-4 weeks before I run it, with YLAY I think you actually HAVE to so something to consider.

Hope all this helps people make their own decisions. Like booze pipe, I think a lower flavor spirit is a good target for ylay as it seems to lack the influence of the small grains for some reason.

[higgins]

I don't remember if I mentioned it at the SE Meetup , but I did something similar back in January. I made 2 bourbons with identical grain bills (25 lb/11.3 kg cornmeal, 8 lb/3.6 kg rye, 3 lb/1.6 kg pale malt), one std AG batch, 1 YLAY batch. My process was to ferment on grain, reserve some wash, steam strip the remaining mash, add reserved wash to low wines, distill on a 3 sieve plate 4" column. I intended to wait a year to evaluate aged product before reporting, but when I saw your post I decided to respond.

There were a few differences between the batches - I had added too much water to the standard mash, so there was more beer at lower ABV. But the mash yields were pretty close at 1.2 proof gallons (4.55 proof-liters) and 1.15 proof gallons (4.36 proof liters) respectively. These numbers were back-calculated from the stripping run yields.

I didn't do anywhere near as comprehensive an evaluation as you did, but in my sparse notes I wrote that I tasted a slight funkiness in the white dog of the YLAY batch, and a reduced level of flavor & aroma. To me the standard batch white dog was better - or maybe that is just what I am accustomed to.

It appeared to me that there was more heads in the YLAY batch, although both runs netted the same volume of heads - here's why I think so:
I had added 44 oz (1.3L) of 72% bourbon feints (mostly heads, little tails)* to the standard batch, yet both runs produced the same amount of heads. And I also got a better finished product yield with 222 oz (6.56 L) vs 175 oz (5.18 L) for the YLAY.

They are both in 6 qt badmos and are aging at 62%. I plan to re-evaluate after 1 year in the badmos.

There was a definite time savings with the YLAY batch of bourbon, but unless time tells me differently, I will probably continue using my standard mashing process for bourbon (2 hrs late in the evening with an overnight rest for the corn cook, then 3-4 hours the next morning for mashing and cooling).

*I don't save near as much feints from flute runs of bourbon vs pot runs - other than a few jars each side they are pretty nasty.

...
YLY will continue to idle along for several days after fermentation has slowed down
...

That is very true. I laid down a YLAY batch of rye (50 lb/22.7 kg flaked rye, 22 gal/83.3 L water) on May 25, and it was quite active for 3 or 4 days at 85F (30C), trying to climb out of the 30 gal fermenter. After 4 days I let it naturally cool down while still insulated and it gradually dropped to about 72F (22C). Admittedly, I made a mistake - I didn't grind the rye flakes before mixing. After a week the cap was still about 3" (76mm) thick, so I continued to stir it in every other day. The cap is now quite thin, but it is still chewing thru it after 7 weeks. It has a mild lacto infection, but it doesn't seem to have affected the flavor yet.

...
It makes me think the YLAY is better suited for making all-grain vodka.
...

My thinking exactly. In April I did a 100% wheat mash (25 lb/11.34 kg soft white, 10.5 lbs/4.76 kg each hard white & hard red, 23 gal/87 L water) with YLAY to make neutral for a gin base. I steam stripped and ran it on a 2" packed column VM slowly at 1.2 LPH. It still retained a very slight bit of wheat flavor, makes a better gin base, but also works well as a vodka. My yield was 150 oz @ 95.6% ABV.

I will probably move back to the pot still for my AG whiskeys and use the flute for rum & brandy, but that could change after the 1 year eval of my 4 methods experiment.

[Dougmatt]

I don't remember if I mentioned it at the SE Meetup , but I did something similar back in Jan

Thanks Higgins. Your experience seems very consistent with mine except I am not getting a funky aroma on the YLAY. Could be there, but I just wasn’t picking it up last night.

I’ve got another 20G batch going, but that’s really to ensure I get enough for a badmo. Then I will have to figure something else out for the remaining yeast….

[The Booze Pipe]

The next big thing I am curious about is using the standard mashing processes with yeast of choice (high ester, high attenuation like a Belgian yeast), and piggybacking that with the YLAY at any given point; likely towards the end of the ferment.

I think that would give desired flavors and total use of grains.

I'm just not sure if this would be redundant? Especially if you are dialed in on your mashing process of choice and get high efficiency; which is typically no better than 80%. So would it be worth it to squeeze out the last 20%? Maybe it would just be a good crutch until a guy feels comfortable in his mashing process?

I have posed this question in a couple of places (on this forum), I don't have the time to try the experiment until this Fall/Winter.

[Dougmatt]

The next big thing I am curious about is using the standard mashing processes with yeast of choice (high ester, high attenuation like a Belgian yeast), and piggybacking that with the YLAY at any given point; likely towards the end of the ferment.

I think that would give desired flavors and total use of grains.

I'm just not sure if this would be redundant? Especially if you are dialed in on your mashing process of choice and get high efficiency; which is typically no better than 80%. So would it be worth it to squeeze out the last 20%? Maybe it would just be a good crutch until a guy feels comfortable in his mashing process?

I have posed this question in a couple of places (on this forum), I don't have the time to try the experiment until this Fall/Winter.

I was thinking about that too. Was about to even post that was going to be my next test, but then it occured to me that my lower yield is explainable by the volume of the curd I toss. Higgens steam strips and had a lower yield, so maybe there’s something there,,,

Frankly I would do YLAY instead of UJSSM or other grain flavored sugar wash as there’s more flavor in YLAY and it seems to avoid the sugar bite, but then I don’t do many of those anymore. For an AG recipe in general I will likely go back to standard mash protocols. At the volumes I make, I will always prioritize taste over time and effort. I will let this age out before fully deciding though….

[higgins]

You guys talked me into a taste comparison today instead of waiting another 6 months. We'll, I guess I really talked myself into it.

So i made up a sample of each, proofed down to 86.

They are very close to each other. If I did a triangle test I doubt that I could pick the outlier. Knowing which was which, I THINK I get a bit more pepper in the nose, and in the flavor in the mashed batch, but that may be a preconception. Then I had my wife switch them around so I didn't know which was which, and I could not detect a difference.

Proofed down even more to 70 I still couldn't detect a difference.

They are quite good already at 6 months, so maybe I'll get some of my BLAST buddies to try it out.

[Dougmatt]

You guys talked me into a taste comparison today instead of waiting another 6 months. We'll, I guess I really talked myself into it.

So i made up a sample of each, proofed down to 86.

They are very close to each other. If I did a triangle test I doubt that I could pick the outlier. Knowing which was which, I THINK I get a bit more pepper in the nose, and in the flavor in the mashed batch, but that may be a preconception. Then I had my wife switch them around so I didn't know which was which, and I could not detect a difference.

Proofed down even more to 70 I still couldn't detect a difference.

They are quite good already at 6 months, so maybe I'll get some of my BLAST buddies to try it out.

Proving yet again how important oak and age is to what we do….

[The Booze Pipe]

I think that sounds like a decent conclusion. I use DADY for everything already, so it might be an easy transition to YLAY for me. But maybe what we really need is a Yellow Label Angle Yeast-of-choice.

[Festerallday]

Thank you for the test results. It makes me think the YLAY is better suited for making all-grain vodka. It sounds like the yeasts in the YLAY doesn't produce as much tasty esters... which DADY is a fairly "light" yeast it's self!

I was thinking the same. I believe that lavalin yeasts like yellow label are used for sake, dry brandy, and fuel production.

[Dougmatt]

Thank you for the test results. It makes me think the YLAY is better suited for making all-grain vodka. It sounds like the yeasts in the YLAY doesn't produce as much tasty esters... which DADY is a fairly "light" yeast it's self!

I was thinking the same. I believe that lavalin yeasts like yellow label are used for sake, dry brandy, and fuel production.

Hi Fester,

Thanks for the post. Just fyi YLAY is what we call yellow label Angel yeast. Made by Angel, not lavalin. I’m not personally aware of a lavalin sake yeast with enzymes like YLAY, but that’s not to say there isn’t one….

[Beerswimmer]

They are very close to each other. If I did a triangle test I doubt that I could pick the outlier.

That's my experience with the white side by side, not too much difference. Marginal at best. I haven't done a side by side with aged, but my aged YLAY whiskey has marginally more distinct grain flavors.

[The Booze Pipe]

You guys talked me into a taste comparison today instead of waiting another 6 months. We'll, I guess I really talked myself into it.

So i made up a sample of each, proofed down to 86.

They are very close to each other. If I did a triangle test I doubt that I could pick the outlier. Knowing which was which, I THINK I get a bit more pepper in the nose, and in the flavor in the mashed batch, but that may be a preconception. Then I had my wife switch them around so I didn't know which was which, and I could not detect a difference.

Proofed down even more to 70 I still couldn't detect a difference.

They are quite good already at 6 months, so maybe I'll get some of my BLAST buddies to try it out.

What was your distillation method?

[higgins]

On both batches I saved 2.5 gallons of wash and steam stripped the rest. I combined the low wines and reserved wash for the spirit runs, which were done on a 4" 3 sieve plate flute. Product came off at about 90% abv, and was proofed down to 60% for aging.

It could be that if I had used a pot still for both there would be more flavor and more differences. I'm not sold on using my flute for whiskey. I did two previous bourbons (grain bill was a bit different) on my flute (after 10 on my pot still) and thought that the flavor was just a bit less than with a pot still.

[Festerallday]

[/quote]



Hi Fester,

Thanks for the post. Just fyi YLAY is what we call yellow label Angel yeast. Made by Angel, not lavalin. I’m not personally aware of a lavalin sake yeast with enzymes like YLAY, but that’s not to say there isn’t one….
[/quote]

The actual name for yellow label is Leaven. We just call it yellow label because of the yellow flag on the package.
It was a spelling error on my part. Probably an autocorrect that I missed.

[Festerallday]

Thank you for the test results. It makes me think the YLAY is better suited for making all-grain vodka. It sounds like the yeasts in the YLAY doesn't produce as much tasty esters... which DADY is a fairly "light" yeast it's self!

I was thinking the same. I believe that lavalin yeasts like yellow label are used for sake, dry brandy, and fuel production.

Hi Fester,

Thanks for the post. Just fyi YLAY is what we call yellow label Angel yeast. Made by Angel, not lavalin. I’m not personally aware of a lavalin sake yeast with enzymes like YLAY, but that’s not to say there isn’t one….

The actual name for yellow label is Leaven. We just call it yellow label because of the yellow flag on the package.
It was a spelling error on my part. Probably an autocorrect that I missed.

[higgins]

...
But the mash yields were pretty close at 1.2 proof gallons (4.55 proof-liters) and 1.15 proof gallons (4.36 proof liters) respectively.
...

I just learned that I'm using the term 'proof gallons' incorrectly. I had assumed it meant gallons of 100% ABV, but just recently learned it really means gallons of 100 proof, or twice what I previously used. I was re-reading this topic when I noticed this and thought I'd correct it.

So the above statement should have been:

...
But the mash yields were pretty close at 2.4 proof gallons (9.1 proof-liters) and 2.3 proof gallons (8.72 proof liters) respectively.
...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And to add a bit more data to this topic, last month I held a bourbon blending session with 5 friends.
I had 6 bourbons in Badmos and my solera bourbon.

• #8: 30 months; double pot stilled
• #10: 24 months; double pot stilled
• #11: 20 months; 4" 3 plate flute stilled
• #12: 18 months; This was an equal blend of my 4 methods experiment bourbons (wheated)
• #13: 11 months; 4" 3 plate flute stilled
• #14: 11 months; 4" 3 plate flute stilled, YLAY
• Solera: originally blended from bourbons 3 thru 7 & 9 about 14 months ago, moved to refurbished 5 gal bourbon barrel 2 months ago, has been topped up several times from glass aged bourbons, bourbon white dogs, and smaller amounts from the badmos listed above.

I made up a 70 proof sample of each bourbon for each person. They took notes on each and then designed a blend 'on paper' ... for example: 10% #12, 30% #8, 20% #11, 10% #13, 30% solera. Then for each person I'd make up a sample of the blend they designed. Some were satisfied on the first try, others tried one or two more blends. In the end they all took home a 375 of their custom blend. It was a lot of fun.

The 2 bourbons I made last January that I mentioned in my earlier post were part of this session (#13 std, #14 YLAY). I explained what they were and asked for their comments on how they differ. They all said they were very similar, with 2 of them slightly preferring the YLAY version. The others had no preference. I detected a slight difference, but didn't have a preference between them. There was certainly less difference between them than there was when first distilled.

I mentioned that the YLAY version may have seemed to have a bit less character when I made the cuts. That seemed to no longer be true, so age has helped.
I will also drop to 2 plates for my next few bourbons to see if I get more character.

[NormandieStill]

Here’s my YLAY CROW process:

20 Gallon Batch
28 lbs Corn meal
4 lb Red Wheat Malt
4 lb White Wheat Malt
4 lb Rye Malt
2 lb Toasted Oats

42 pounds or 19kg

Put all grains ground to flour into single fermentation vessel (25G)
Add hot water (my tap can get to 130+F)
Allow to cool to 90F
Pitch 100g YLAY
Maintain the temperature to be 85°F or so
Stir twice every day in the first three days.

This has been an interesting comparison (I missed this thread when you started it). I've mostly used YLAY for neutrals, but did do an HBB run using it. I found the YLAY much more grain-forward, but I now steam strip on-grain, so this was probably not a fair comparison.

I do also think that my YLAY ferments have a much higher grain-to-water ratio. Based on the packet, I do 23 litres of water per 8kg of "stuff", so based on your recipe above, I would have added 54 litres of water (About 14 US Gallons). I think this is much more grain to water than your recipe.

Looking at my notes, my ferments were about 28 litres each, 3 of each stripped to a total of 33 litres at +/- 25%. Working backwards, that comes to about 10% abv for the distillers beer. Which is a little on the high side, but does mean that I might be getting some more flavour in from greater volume of grains in the water.