Grain question – Animal feed versus Human consumption

[Mr_Beer]

The intention is to solicit views regarding the PPG content and the starch convertibility of grains sold in feed stores (primarily for animal consumption) and the same grains sold in either brew stores or restaurant supply stores.

A little background for some readers -- in rural America there are no brew stores and few restaurant supply locations. The closest to me is 200+ miles. There are many feed stores that sell grains for animal feed and for actual seeding for production – three within a 20 mile radius of me. The typical 50# bag of corn/wheat is about $8 while the equivalent of malted or restaurant grains is about $110 (cost plus shipping). Big difference.

In America, any grains that have been treated with herbicides or other chemicals must be so noted on the label. Additionally it is a customary practice to add a different color/tinge to the bulk grain. Farmers are as concerned with poisoning their cattle as humans are concerned about poisoning themselves. Not being an expert, i rely on labels and the usual customary practices -- feed grains for cattle are essentially untreated and unprocessed.

Recently I was advised that grain purchased from a supplier that had human consumption type grains was better because the PPG content of feed store grains was low.

I used to fish with a fellow that ran a large feed lot and consumed several hundred thousand pounds of grain per month. My current neighbor feeds about two hundred cattle. Both gentlemen are focused on weight gain which apparently for feeding cattle is all about starch conversion. Both of them have indicated that there is miniscule difference between cattle feed and human feed since the actual grains are usually grown for sale to any buyer. Not scientific but the view of two ‘experts’ that know lots more about grain and animal starch conversion that I do.

The question is – can somebody point to some data or have knowledge that will point to a difference between ‘human consumption’ grains and ‘animal consumption’ grains.

Thanks in advance for any views or opinions.

[shadylane]

Pick the best grain available for malting, mashing, fermenting and distilling, clean fresh seed that's viable is needed.
Animal feed vs grain to be processed for human consumption is also based on quality

[Swedish Pride]

I only get malt and rice that's meant for human consumption.

All corn oats and wheat Ive ever used is from the feed store
Makes good bourbon to me

[Dancing4dan]

Regulations for human use vs animal use may be different in regards to pesticides, herbicides, storage and handling.

I found cracked corn contained a small amount of alpha alpha pellets that result in nasty off flavour.

[Mr_Beer]

Dancing4dan makes a good point -- if you buy processed grain (i.e. like cracked corn) then you might get some different material included -- not poisoning but certainly could affect the flavor. Alpha alpha pellets would be a cause of off flavors for sure.

That is why I always purchase whole grain and then grind them after careful inspection.

[Homebrewer11777]

What is your cost from webrestaurantstore.com for corn?

I just ordered 2x #50 sacks delivered to New York for about $72 total. That is Agricore coarse ground cornmeal. I have been picking up cracked corn from Tractor Supply for about $14 per bag but going to try the switch to the human food grade cornmeal. Will be more convenient since it is delivered and TS is an errand and I won't have to regrind it. I'm wondering if it might actually be a better product than the TS corn in terms of more uniformly crushed (less flour than I get after running it through my grinder) no husks/stems, no other odd bits that are acceptable for feed or mold retardant additives...

For small grains I've pretty much settled on Morebeer with free shipping. Malt runs about $80 for 50# but I brew beer and go through a fair bit of that. Used to be able to get 50# sacks from the LHBS but they have all gone out of business or gone unreliable on inventory and shipping those 50# sacks from anybody online is a killer. Not sure how webrestaurantstore manages it for the cornmeal, will be interesting to see.

[Twisted Brick]

If you are willing to pick up grain delivered to an established drop off point, Azure Standard now has a drop in Midway, 13mi from your house. On orders of $50 or more, shipping is free. Orders are delivered monthly, you just gotta go pick them up at the delivery spot/time.

The kernels in their organic coarse cornmeal has had none of the germ removed so its like getting pre-ground whole corn. $19 per 25lb sack.
Red wheat is $41/50lbs and organic rye is $42/50lbs. Both are organic, very clean and malt nicely.

The quality and yield is the best of all of the grains I have bought. If you buy some and still suffer a less-than-optimal yield I would not blame the grain and suspect there are opportunities for improvement in your processes.

To answer your original question, I found little in the way of comparative analysis of feed vs food grains. One article I found though mentions the current focus of feed grain development is not starches or to increase a grain's protein level, but to engineer a higher percentage of fiber into the cultivar to help mitigate digestive challenges.

https://extension.psu.edu/feed-analysis ... out-energy

https://www.cgiar.org/news-events/news/ ... sed%20food.

[Homebrewer11777]

sure wish I could get Azure anywhere near me

[contrahead]

The question is – can somebody point to some data or have knowledge that will point to a difference between ‘human consumption’ grains and ‘animal consumption’ grains.

We are not a bunch of biochemist here; at least I'm not. When academics introduce an acronym (like PPG) it is polite, sensible and standard practice to explain or introduce the new acronym's real name from the beginning so that the audience knows what the hell your talking about.

I can only guess or ASSume that by “PPG” - you may mean protoporphyrinogen oxidase. Perhaps not. But inhibition of the enzyme protoporphyrinogen oxidase is the mechanism of action for several commercial herbicides. Apparently lipid radicals or liquid peroxides are created that then react with other oxidizing agents, leading to a chain reaction that results in oxidative stress and cell damage (in just the weed hopefully).

The first PPG (if you are talking about protoporphyrinogen oxidase) was “nitrofen”; first sold in 1964.
Eventually it was determined that nitrofen might probably be carcinogenic, so it has been outlawed in the European union and the U.S. since 1996. (For 32 years in the meantime, the public was fed this chemical that might have caused cancer).

Nitrofen was then superseded by another pair of PPG inhibitors; Acifluorfen and Fomesafen. Both work well in soybean fields. Acifluorfen is registered by the EPA in this country, but not by the European Union. In California, acifluorfen is listed as "known to the state to cause cancer or reproductive toxicity".
Fomesafen is sprayed upon other beans and crops besides soybeans, but is not considered safe for corn.

-----------------=
The fuss about distinguishing between grain for animals vs grain for humans did not begin until the 1990's or so either. The fuss was caused more by concerns over GMOs (Genetically Modified Organisms) than it was about herbicides. Monsanto introduced Roundup® (glyphosate) to our food chain in 1974. Glyphosate is a non-selective, broad-spectrum herbicide that kills most everything. Monsanto also genetically modified seeds like corn or soybeans, so that the crops would survive being poisoned but the weeds would not. Two years ago in the U.S., more that 94% of soybeans, 96% of all cotton and 92% of corn was GMO. About four big multinational agrochemical /seed companies control over 82% of the world wide seed (food) market.

Today Roundup or kindred chemicals with different names are sold and used in over 130 countries around the world, and it is endemic in our food supply, as are GMOs. It is understandable that humanity needs to eat. And somewhat obvious that without insecticides, herbicides and Frankenstein-ed plants – most of us would not be eating. However these chemicals are not benign. Because nature fights back and creates resistant “superweeds”, this increases the amount of spraying that a farmer must preform. And then on top of that, some farmers are obliged to spray non-GMO crops, which desiccates the plant, causes stress and for all nutrients to be sent to the seeds.

(Still picking on Roundup rather than PPGs): There is a high residual concentration of Roundup in our refined foods, even after being processed and cooked. Even wine and beer are usually contaminated – because hops and grapevines are commonly sprayed. Thirty six years after Roundup was introduced, the company patented glyphosate as an “antibiotic”. Antimicrobial is a better word. Some scientist fear that the chemical damages gut flora and the body's entire microbiome. Glyphosate can cause bacteria to develop a resistance to antibiotics – 100 times faster than normal. Ever pervasive herbicides like this in our food, could create super antibiotic-resistant bacteria in our bodies. Good luck with that next medical emergency shot of antibiotics that might save you life. Glyphosate and another well known herbicide named “atrazine” - are both endocrine disruptors that interfere with hormones. But that is another can of worms, that can be discussed another time.

As to you question: what is the “difference between ‘human consumption’ grains and ‘animal consumption’ grains”; I don't know, but would expect it to be slight. The bureaucrats buckled under 30 yrs ago when the public became alarmed with unannounced GMOs in their food. Truth in herbicide labeling is just a new wrinkle; and suspect. I wouldn't trust the FDA as far as I could spit. Or labels.
(Big business has been calling the shots at agencies like the FDA and paying for all research for 60 years or more now).

[Mr_Beer]

Interesting set of responses so far…

Opps
Contrahead provided a great analysis of a different facet of the question I intended to ask.
PPG was intended to focus on the potential alcohol available between grains intended for human consumption and the same grains used for animal feed.
https://www.brew-dudes.com/working-with ... ravity/126
I apologize for any confusion.


Time constraints and convenience
One of my requirements is to select in favor of whole kernel grains. Once the grain is ground and the shell cracked the shelf life prior to becoming ‘stale’ is about a month or two. Unground grains have a shelf life of 10 to 20 months when stored properly, often longer if germination requirements are reduced.

Since I have a grinder and barrels of various grains available, convenience is an important factor. The time from recipe development to ‘in the mash’ is literally hours.


Cost
Assure Standard today wanted to charge $28 S&H to a nearby drop off location. Drop off opportunities in my area are about once per month – lots of advance planning required. They sell organic animal feed corn – probably the same stuff as local feed store. The price is about 5 times the local cost and it is not intended for human consumption.
BTW, Assure is a great source for bulk Molasses since it hard to get many places.
https://www.azurestandard.com/shop/search/corn

WebstaurantStore only sells ground corn. The price (with S&H) is about 5 times the cost of local supply but it is ground and will tend to go stale if kept for a long time.

Actual Comparison Data
Twisted Brick pointed to two articles -- great info, thanks for the links.


Varieties
In discussing this with my fishing friend he mentioned that there are varieties of corn grown specifically for ethanol production. It is slightly more expensive and in general terms cattle avoid it in favor of traditional corn. That said the residue of the ethanol production is then fed to the cattle and they gobble it up. I doubt that any of that product is available at feed stores.

Recently I was able to get some Bloody Butcher corn – a heritage grain that distillers apparently like. Expensive, but the results were quite spectacular. Availability is limited and now I am waiting for the next harvest.

[higgins]

sure wish I could get Azure anywhere near me

Have you looked at the drops on Azure? Here's a snip of their map of drops for NY:

[Homebrewer11777]

I'm on Long Island. Closest to me is NJ and that is 2-4 hours each way +$40 in tolls round trip.

Or ferry to Bridgeport but that is $150 round trip...

[contrahead]

Interesting set of responses so far…

Opps
PPG was intended to focus on the potential alcohol available between grains intended for human consumption and the same grains used for animal feed.
https://www.brew-dudes.com/working-with ... ravity/126

And there I was, just ranting and rambling away, in my own little cloud.

[subbrew]

I am only speaking for oats but I assume corn or other grains have similar processing chains. The plant I worked at made steel cut oats, rolled oats and coated rolled oats, mostly for breakfast foods for human consumption. The oats that came into the plant came from the same farms and fields that also sent oats for animal feed. The difference was in the cleaning. We had multiple passes through the cleaners (mostly screens to let dirt drop and big fans that the grain dropped through) to get out the dirt, grass hopper legs, mouse poop and other contaminates out. But chemically it was the same exact grain.

[GrumbleStill]

Seeing as folks from all over will be reading this, I thought I’d toss in a viewpoint from the other end of the planet.

Here in Oz there’s three main grades of corn that are readily available

1. Cracked corn / maize sold at feed stores as chook food - usually about $25 / 25kg bag
2. Rolled / flaked corn marketed as “micronised” maize and sold as horse food for around $35 / 20kg bag
3. Home brew store flaked maize / malted which sells for around $125 / 25kg bag

Regulations on grain for animal consumption are pretty tight here, so no nasties added.

The only real difference I’ve noticed in the yield or flavour is how hard you need to work to get the good stuff out. And the effort required is pretty much reflected in the price.

Cracked corn needs the full treatment.
The micronised grain has less crap in it (broken bits of cob mostly, plus the odd pebble) requires a bit less cooking and has the advantage that it will lauter ok if you have the gear.
HBS corn mashes nicely at the same temp as the malts, so less steps involved. It also lauters pretty well, so lends itself to an off grain ferment.

Cheers

[Powder Monkey]

Small (micro) scale grain farmer here. Not an expert but knowledgeable.

The answer is, not surprisingly, complex. You need to consider grain quality for consumption (animal vs human) vs seed quality or malting quality (highest grade requirements). In general this prioritizes the cleanest (least dirt/cracked/damaged grains) and highest test weight grains (largest). But for human/malt there are other factors like moisture/DON/toxin levels (from Fuserium infections).

For example you could have grain from the same field, it is cleaned and half of it goes to the human consumption market and the other goes towards animal feed.

Unless you’re specifically getting organic essentially all grain has herbicide exposure, even non-GMO. If you’re referring to seed treatments that’s a different story but those treatments aren’t “herbicides” but certainly not something you’d want for distilling.

As far as PPG (points per gallon?) that’s going to vary depending on the grain you’re referring too. Corn grown on the commodity market essentially has the same starch content so it doesn’t matter. (I have tested my hybrid and open pollinated varieties and have some data on hand if anyone was geeky and interested.) This is because the focus is on the starch content/max yield. Small grains are different for example wheat/barley grown for bread focus is high protein content (thus less starch and less PPG). But barley grown for malting is focused on lower protein (higher starch).

The big commercial ethanol/distilleries may/do focus on startch content from their source grains to squeeze out the extra 1-3% yield. On our home scale I wouldn’t even worry about it.

I say all that to then say I grow animal feed focus and I’ve used it all for malting/booze making with success.

[Mr_Beer]

Addendum --

What I did not mention in my original post is that some type of grains taste better than others. That is the view of more experienced distillers. An example is rye grain. The Elbon variety is preferred by many distillers versus NVS products.

For those who may not know, bags of grain at a farm/feed store can be packaged as NVS (No Variety Specified) or they can have the variety specified.

Obviously the variety specified is more expensive and typically only required by production farmers for growing the same product or for special use end consumers.

Finding a farm/seed store that will sell specific varieties of a grain in bags may require research. Depending on your location it may not be possible. Typically it is fairly clean since the regulations/requirement for varietal labeling seem to require fairly clean products.

[Powder Monkey]

Experimenting with different rye varieties is a current project of mine. Check out Far North Spirits and their varietal whiskey projects if you’re in a state they distribute to. If one were looking to source specific varietals look into Albert Lea Seed. They offer organic and conventional certified seed, which one could use for malting/distilling. I have some Danko growing to trial. Any elevator is unlikely to have specific varietals in their bin run stock so seed stock would be the option, unless you went straight to the farmer.

[Powder Monkey]

A few other thing I’ll mention for consideration is cleaning. One can buy bin run grain at the elevator/farmer for cheap and clean it yourself and save a lot of $. I first started and made hardware cloth boxes of various sizes and a small fan. You can get things reasonably clean for distilling.

Depending on your hobby size/location you may be able to find an old seed cleaner “clipper mill” for a good price, which makes cleaning easier.

With the original PPG question I don’t think the difference is as much in the intrinsic grain characteristics creates a higher PPG yield but “quantitatively” there is more intact starch and less waste/dust so per bulk unit there is more yield. At least when referring to commodity corn.

General rule is commodity corn is 8-9% protein. (Majority of the rest is starch, small percent oil etc) This can vary some with variety, N application rate and maturity. In my grain testing between varieties and fertility the difference in starch/protein content has never been more than 3%. Which makes a difference on the grand scale of agriculture/feed lot/ethanol plant. But not much on our scale.

[NormandieStill]

I buy animal feed grains from a few different sources. The cheapest is the local farms, although they don't all have stock all the time. I used to get wheat for 5€/25kg in hand-tied bags, but that was a few years back. It's close to double that now. As I grind it, I tend to pick out the more obvious bits of straw, droppings or other grains.

I can also buy it in neatly sealed card sacks. In the local supermarket I can only get 5kg and it works out a little pricey, in any of the garden centres, or farmers cooperatives I can get it in 25kg sacks for about 10% more than at the farm. It's cleaner, but not necessarily adjunct-free. If I want organic, then I'm going to have to get more adventurous. There's a farmer's coop that specialises in organic grains, but they don't sell through the same network, so I'll need to go through a friend who has an account with them. I've not taken the time yet to look into costs.

[subbrew]

Powder Monkey. Perhaps in a new thread I would be interested in the starch content of your open pollinated varieties.

For those that worry, remember a few grasshopper bodies are just nitrogen for the yeast. Some of the early beer recipes had meat added to feed the yeast. I worry more about herbicide residue than a few extra organic critters.

[Mr_Beer]

Thanks to everyone who contributed – interesting information regarding grains.

Below is my summary from my research and the contributions of obviously experienced and knowledgeable contributors on this thread…

• PPG as a metric seems to be equivalent for grains – whether sold for human consumption or animal consumption. In some sense grain is grain and the PPG is essentially equivalent for most varieties of the same grain.
• Since grain is grain, the apparent difference between human or animal consumption is the cleanliness of the grain – mouse poop, insect legs or parts, dirt, chaff, etc.
• There are ways to determine if the grain has been treated/altered -- both in America and in other jurisdictions. Be careful and avoid any grain that is a different color or tinge. Read the labels.
• In America, the network of rural farm/ranch stores sell unmalted grain in bulk at modest prices – often 10x less expensive than the same grains from a brew store and about 5x less expensive than suppliers of human consumption products. Note that those price comparisons/notions include the cost of transportation which is often more that the cost of the actual grain itself.
• Malted grain is not necessary in your grain bill if enzymes or YLAY are used.
• In America, the essential difference between farm/feed store provided grains and those used in human food production is related to the degree of cleaning that the grains undergo. Grains for human consumption will be cleaner – less rodent poop, grasshopper legs and insects, dirt/pebbles, chaff, etc.
• Brew stores may be the only alternative if you want peated or smoked or roasted grain products.
• In America it will be necessary to ‘check out’ your farm/ranch store and its production and packaging process. If you buy grain by the ton then expect entirely different processes than if you buy it by the 50 pound bag.
• If you decide you need a particular variety or grain for your distilling make sure that that variety is specified on the label of the bag of grain. Avoid any bag that is labeled as NVS (No Variety Specified) since it will have a mixture of varieties of the grain.
• Transportation costs are a big factor – you decide on what you might want to pay for specialty grains that have to be shipped a long distance.

To summarize vendors mentioned here I have included some links – no endorsement is provided or intended…
• Your local nearby farm/feed store. Tractor Supply Co has many outlets in urban America for the hobby farmer and is close approximation of a rural farm/feed store.
• Local home brew store if there is one nearby.
• https://www.azurestandard.com/ -- good source for specialty items like honey or molasses or special sugar or grains. Have a unique delivery paradigm – local and you go to pick up from their truck.
• https://www.restaurantdepot.com/locatio ... -warehouse -- Restaurant Depot – looks like the Costco or Sam’s Club equivalent for restaurants.
• https://mbsseed.com/product-category/farm-ranch-seed/ -- Specialty grains
• https://sleepybisonacres.grazecart.com/ ... tcher-corn Actual farm in Sleepy Eye, MN. Grows BB corn and sells direct.

Thanks to everyone -- I certainly learned a lot.

[8Ball]

I picked up a fresh sack of whole barley at a feed store the other day for $35. Gonna start malting half of it this weekend.