Wheat flavor in Wheated Bourbon

[PalCabral]

Hi there, distillers.

I am playing around a wheated bourbon recipe and could need some feedback from other palates and experienced Bourbon distillers.

My idea of what wheat brings to the table in a Bourbon is some bread, some sweetness, but above all creamy texture. My view is that if you’re going to use wheat in your Bourbon recipe as the only flavor ingredient besides the corn you should not be cheap with the proportion. Do you agree?

My thought has been to use 30-40% wheat malt in the malt bill. However, as of late I’ve been toying with the idea to use a smaller portion, say 5%, Carawheat (crystal malt from wheat) and lowering the wheat malt proportion similarly, to further enhance the mouthfeel, and maybe add some caramel and roasted aromas. Has anyone got experience from using Carawheat or an opinion on how that would change the flavor profile from only having malted wheat?

I am planning to make 80L of mash over three ferments/stripping runs, followed by one spririt run. Do you recommend I stay with my original recipe for the first batch and only tweak the changes to it once I have a baseline?

Thanks in advance.

[PalCabral]

Anyone?

[NZChris]

If I'm experimenting with a new grain bill, I don't expect that I will be able to Google up someone else who has already tried it.

Just do it, then adjust your bill for the next ferment.

[PalCabral]

If I'm experimenting with a new grain bill, I don't expect that I will be able to Google up someone else who has already tried it.

Just do it, then adjust your bill for the next ferment.

Not sure what’s the purpose of a forum chapter called Recipe Development if it’s not to discuss the development of a recipe? Clearly we have a lot of members who have made wheated bourbons, so I was hoping to discuss the fearures of a recipe and how tweaks of it can impact flavor, attenuation, and other things. To formulate a recipe by myself I can already do.

But why wouldn’t you want to google recipes as part of your input when making a recipe? Why are older members even bothering to point to the trusted recipes?

Have you looked at them, the trusted recipes? A few of them discusses why ingredients are in the recipe, but most of the recipes are list of grains, sugars, and other flavorings, but few mentions why they are in the recipe, what they provide to the product. As such, to get an understanding of the recipe, most of them are pretty useless.

[shadylane]

In the past I've experimented with malted wheat and corn for bourbon.
There was something missing, it was thin and made a better base for reflux distilling vodka.
For potstilled bourbon, adding 5-10% of a medium-slightly roasted barley malt fixed that.

As to Carawheat (crystal malt from wheat)
I've built everything needed to produce what I call stewed wheat malt.
Germinated until the acrospire is 50ish% of the seed length, then popped into the oven without being properly dried first.
Slowly heated for several hours until it has a light golden color and the roots and shoots can be winnowed out.
It makes an excellent young white whiskey, but has a low diastic power and I use enzymes to get a lower final gravity

[PalCabral]

In the past I've experimented with malted wheat and corn for bourbon.
There was something missing, it was thin and made a better base for reflux distilling vodka.
For potstilled bourbon, adding 5-10% of a medium-slightly roasted barley malt fixed that.

Interesting. And discouraging. Do you think it was becsuse you used too low portion of wheat malt? I was aiming at 30% of the malt bill, not sure if upping would make a huge difference. I hate bland. This is why I started toying with the idea of using wheat crystal malt. Another would be to use a darker wheat malt.

You solved it with more barley, which is something I’ve thought about too. Adding Melanoidin or a dar munich malt to add complexity. The enzyme malt I’m using, Weyermann’s Diaststatic malt is really neutral. The thing was that I was planning to experiment with other barley malts in a recipe later on.

As to Carawheat (crystal malt from wheat)
I've built everything needed to produce what I call stewed wheat malt.
It makes an excellent young white whiskey, but has a low diastic power and I use enzymes.

Care to share how you make your stewed malt? Sounds like you toasted it.

[shadylane]

Part of the character of bourbon is the tanins from the husks of barley.
Wheat doesn't have a husk, but maybe a darker roast on wheat could supply that.

[PalCabral]

Part of the character of bourbon is the tanins from the husks of barley.
Wheat doesn't have a husk, but maybe a darker roast on wheat could supply that.

Torn, Shady! Double the barley malt portion by adding a character malt (Maris Otter, Melanoidin malt, dark munich malt) or stay in the world of wheat. All darker wheat malts are out of stock in my location so remaining are crystal malt from wheat or chocolate malt from wheat. Not at all sure what a dark roasted malt will give to the otherwise pretty clean and proper recipe? I can envision what Carawheat will provide, false or true, but with choco malt... Don't know if I dare chance it. I wanted the recipe to be a standard, and flavorful, Bourbon. Not an oddity. But not a bland blither blather.

Great input. You gave me a lot to think about. But I see path

[SW_Shiner]

Ive also found that just corn and wheat was a bit thin and lacking. I add some oats to help the mouthfeel and its much better. I use YLAY or enzymes so not malt but im at about the wheat makes up about 28% of grain bill. My go to recipe now is 10kg corn, 5kg wheat, 3kg oats.

[tommysb]

One of my first real delicious successes was made with 50% corn, 25% (malted) wheat, 25% Malted Barley.

I wouldn't overthink it Pål, it's going to be delicious however you choose to do it!

[NormandieStill]

I made a 100% unmalted wheat whisky a while back. I find that wheat brings a light caramel / butterscotch note. I'm using feedstock wheat from France which is not necessarily the same wheat available in the USA.

[The Booze Pipe]

I just did a wheated bourbon. 70% corn, 25% red/white wheat malt, and 5% rye. The Rye totally brought it all together! The wheat came across as bready and delicious... corn is always delicious.

Did you google search the forum for recipes?

[Stags]

Ive also found that just corn and wheat was a bit thin and lacking. I add some oats to help the mouthfeel and its much better. I use YLAY or enzymes so not malt but im at about the wheat makes up about 28% of grain bill. My go to recipe now is 10kg corn, 5kg wheat, 3kg oats.

+1 for oats

I’d recommend using honey bear bourbon as a base recipe for experimentation

[Ridgeback816]

The wheated bourbon that I have made is 60 corn 20 malted red wheat 10 malted barley 10 oats. Red wheat does have a different flavor than white wheat I love it (think and Irish red beer vs shock top) just food or beer for thought for your next project

[PalCabral]

Great! Some traction on my recipe building. Thanks for the input, guys!

Ive also found that just corn and wheat was a bit thin and lacking. I add some oats to help the mouthfeel and its much better. I use YLAY or enzymes so not malt but im at about the wheat makes up about 28% of grain bill. My go to recipe now is 10kg corn, 5kg wheat, 3kg oats.

I am planning a 5 grain Bourbon later this year when I am going to use oats in the bill. I can see the mouthfeel impact however. Never a boring component. Used it in a lot of beers I've made.

One of my first real delicious successes was made with 50% corn, 25% (malted) wheat, 25% Malted Barley.

I wouldn't overthink it Pål, it's going to be delicious however you choose to do it!

Thanks for your pep talk, Tom. Overthinking it is my middle name, so you are absolutely right. I am landing in using a tad Carawheat and barley malt (Melanoidin).

I made a 100% unmalted wheat whisky a while back. I find that wheat brings a light caramel / butterscotch note. I'm using feedstock wheat from France which is not necessarily the same wheat available in the USA.

I will be using Weyermann's wheat malt. It's reliable but perhaps a bit boring.

I just did a wheated bourbon. 70% corn, 25% red/white wheat malt, and 5% rye. The Rye totally brought it all together! The wheat came across as bready and delicious... corn is always delicious.

Did you google search the forum for recipes?

I like the idea of using rye in the bill. But I wanted to be more true to the original three grains: corn, wheat and barley. A little rye goes a long way too. I think adding it defintely changes the "theme" of the recipe, from (what I envision) smooth, sweet and creamy, to have bread and spice in there.

The wheated bourbon that I have made is 60 corn 20 malted red wheat 10 malted barley 10 oats. Red wheat does have a different flavor than white wheat I love it (think and Irish red beer vs shock top) just food or beer for thought for your next project

Can't find red wheat here. In fact, when I googled it, it seems the wheat species used in Europe and in the States are very different. In Europe, we don't have red wheat, nor what you guys call white wheat. The wheat here is indeed white but a totally different specie, it seems.

Guys, thanks for all the feedback! Will post the outcome in a few weeks.

[The Booze Pipe]

The thing I do is read all the flavor description profiles available for the grains I want to use. Using that, tasting spirits, and my imagination I come up with a mash bill. Really though, don't overthink it, it'll most likely come out tasty one way or another. And then you can tweak your recipe as needed.

[PalCabral]

The thing I do is read all the flavor description profiles available for the grains I want to use. Using that, tasting spirits, and my imagination I come up with a mash bill. Really though, don't overthink it, it'll most likely come out tasty one way or another. And then you can tweak your recipe as needed.

Thanks, BP. You are right. I've done enough thinking about it now. Lot's of good input in this thread.

[PalCabral]

The thing I do is read all the flavor description profiles available for the grains I want to use. Using that, tasting spirits, and my imagination I come up with a mash bill. Really though, don't overthink it, it'll most likely come out tasty one way or another. And then you can tweak your recipe as needed.

Thanks, BP. You are right. I've done enough thinking about it now. Lot's of good input in this thread.

[Garouda]

This is what I made last year, and the result was great:
I had some whole wheat flour initially bought to bake some bread, but I eventually decided to add it to my 'BIAB' recipe.

The natural brown cane sugar imparts some nice flavours, the variety of malts results of what was available on hand and it appeared to be a lucky hand.

[PalCabral]

Very barley forward Bourbon, Garouda, with smaller amounts of flavor component, Rye, Oats and Wheat. Which flavours came through the most? I would guess the wheat must have been very descrete in this recipe?

[Garouda]

Very barley forward Bourbon, Garouda, with smaller amounts of flavor component, Rye, Oats and Wheat. Which flavours came through the most? I would guess the wheat must have been very descrete in this recipe?

Well, the standard is >50% Corn, and I'm at 65%…
Frankly speaking, I'm not able to differentiate the various flavours. So far I mainly made TFFV or Buccaneer Bob rum.
This was my first attempt with an all grain mash, and it makes fun, more fun than a sugar wash I must say.
Furthermore, I do not need to assemble my VM still and proceed with centuries-long spirit runs with my VM setting.
The reason for the amount of barley in that recipe is the available barley that I bought to brew beer. Frankly speaking, I'm now more interested in making an all grains whiskey than brewing beer. Another reason is the diastatic power of barley, I'm using unmalted corn from down the village. I'm currently testing a recipe using YLAY, and it seems to be fine. In other words, in the future, diastatic power calculations or using alpha and gluco amylase won't be on the agenda any more.

[PalCabral]

Well, the standard is >50% Corn, and I'm at 65%…
Frankly speaking, I'm not able to differentiate the various flavours. So far I mainly made TFFV or Buccaneer Bob rum.
This was my first attempt with an all grain mash, and it makes fun, more fun than a sugar wash I must say.
Furthermore, I do not need to assemble my VM still and proceed with centuries-long spirit runs with my VM setting.
The reason for the amount of barley in that recipe is the available barley that I bought to brew beer. Frankly speaking, I'm now more interested in making an all grains whiskey than brewing beer. Another reason is the diastatic power of barley, I'm using unmalted corn from down the village. I'm currently testing a recipe using YLAY, and it seems to be fine. In other words, in the future, diastatic power calculations or using alpha and gluco amylase won't be on the agenda any more.

I understand your thinking. Barley seems to be mainly in Bourbon recipes for its' diastatic power. Six row barley, which is generally used in Bourbon recipes, is pretty flavorless, and tends to be in proportions of 8-15% solely for adding enzymes. I am using Weyermann's Diastatic barley malt for the same reason, but of course if you can use enzymes in the mash you can skip barley malt altogether. But are you sure YLAY contains Alpha Amylase? I thought it only came with Glukoamylase, so you still need alpha amylase from somewhere in your mash.

I have been toying with the idea of increasing the barley malt proportion for the bread and sweetness it can provide. When I was brewing beer, Melanoidin malt was my goto to get a deep malty flavour - Belgian Aromatic malt has the same quality (you may know that malt?). At some point I will make a 4 or 5 grain Bourbon and plan to have more barley in that recipe and smaller portions of flavor malts, like you had in yours.

I was pondering a VM still before I decided with my CM modular still. What put me off was the slowness and precision needed - I am too impatient. VM stills are superior for dialing in high proof spirits, I am sure, but honestly I am only interested in pot still distilling at the moment. Good talking to you.

[Garouda]

But are you sure YLAY contains Alpha Amylase? I thought it only came with Glukoamylase, so you still need alpha amylase from somewhere in your mash.

I was pondering a VM still before I decided with my CM modular still. What put me off was the slowness and precision needed - I am too impatient. VM stills are superior for dialing in high proof spirits, I am sure, but honestly I am only interested in pot still distilling at the moment. Good talking to you.

Good talking to you too.
My still can be used as pot still, pot still with a Lyne arm, pot still with a gin basket and VM still.
The VM setting works great but takes time, I sometimes have to interrupt the spirit run and start over the next day. I first made neutral vodka following the best recipe IMHO which is Ted's fast Fermenting Vodka, I then made rum following Buccaneer Bob's recipe.
Last year I made my first all grain mash, a recipe of my own, and the result was amazing. Also, a spirit run to make whiskey is far easier to monitor than a VM spirit run to obtain a neutral high ABV vodka.
I'm currently using YLAY and the liquefaction is obvious. Indeed, there is alpha amylase in there, glucoamylase and phytase too.
I do not have a strong background in biology and don't know the exact function of phytase.

Ingredients : yeast, Rhizopus, alpha-amylase, Glucoamylase, phytase

[PalCabral]

Good talking to you too.
My still can be used as pot still, pot still with a Lyne arm, pot still with a gin basket and VM still.
The VM setting works great but takes time, I sometimes have to interrupt the spirit run and start over the next day. I first made neutral vodka following the best recipe IMHO which is Ted's fast Fermenting Vodka, I then made rum following Buccaneer Bob's recipe.
Last year I made my first all grain mash, a recipe of my own, and the result was amazing. Also, a spirit run to make whiskey is far easier to monitor than a VM spirit run to obtain a neutral high ABV vodka.
I'm currently using YLAY and the liquefaction is obvious. Indeed, there is alpha amylase in there, glucoamylase and phytase too.
I do not have a strong background in biology and don't know the exact function of phytase.
Angel Leaven Yellow Label package.jpg

Oh, I'm no biologist either but I thought normal alpha amylase only were effective between 66C and 70-something, and the high temperature alpha amylase above 80C. Theoretically, you won't get much use of the glucoamylase if the alpha amylase hasn't done its' job, this is why you use alpha amylase first, at the higher temps and then the glucoamylase as the wort is cooling or in the fermenter. But I am a newbie, so... Don't know what phytase is either - seems to have something to do with PH.

[NormandieStill]

OK. A bit of biology (I haven't used it in 20+ years but I have a degree in this stuff!).

Not all enzymes are the same. The amylases in cereals that we know and love normally operate at a much lower temperature range. By pushing them up to ~68C we get them to run faster at a cost life span.

Exogenous enzymes are usually sourced from bacteria or moulds. They have difference optimal ranges (because they have evolved in the bacteria to serve a different purpose). Because bacteria are fast growing (compared to cereals) its easier to select for amylases that tolerate higher temperatures (for example).

In YLAY the enzymes in the packet are there to bootstrap the process. What you're actually doing is growing a fungi which then produces the enzymes in higher quantities and continues chewing starch into sugar while the yeast turns the sugar into alcohol.

I'm not sure what the phytase is for. Perhaps a nutrient source for the fungi or the yeast.

[Homebrewer11777]

Why not pick a commercial wheated bourbon you like that has a known mash bill and experiment from there.
Try different wheats including malt red vs white and malt vs flaked while holding your corn and barley components steady.

I enjoy Larceny and they publish a fair amount about their recipe.
68% corn
20% wheat
12% malted barley

So I'm guessing yellow dent corn, 6-row barley malt and unmalted wheat. Probably red winter wheat.
Then pick a yeast you think might be the Heaven Hill strain.
Barrels with #3 char, 125 proof into barrel

See how close you get...

[PalCabral]

OK. A bit of biology (I haven't used it in 20+ years but I have a degree in this stuff!).

In YLAY the enzymes in the packet are there to bootstrap the process. What you're actually doing is growing a fungi which then produces the enzymes in higher quantities and continues chewing starch into sugar while the yeast turns the sugar into alcohol.

I'm not sure what the phytase is for. Perhaps a nutrient source for the fungi or the yeast.

Thanks for a pretty clear and logical explanation. Basically, all we need to do is to mash the grain so the starch can be converted, the YLAY package do the rest. That's all I need to know, actually. Are you using this type of yeast, TrouNormande? I am old fashioned, like stupid, and I prefer old fashioned ways. I can add enzymes to my mash though, so I am also a hypocrite.

Why not pick a commercial wheated bourbon you like that has a known mash bill and experiment from there.
Try different wheats including malt red vs white and malt vs flaked while holding your corn and barley components steady.

I enjoy Larceny and they publish a fair amount about their recipe.
68% corn
20% wheat
12% malted barley

So I'm guessing yellow dent corn, 6-row barley malt and unmalted wheat. Probably red winter wheat.
Then pick a yeast you think might be the Heaven Hill strain.
Barrels with #3 char, 125 proof into barrel

See how close you get...

I am to an extent. One of my absolute favorite Bourbons is Old Fitzgerald BIB. Problem is with Kentucky Bourbons is that they change with time. Wheeling and dealing in Kentucky has changed a lot of brands over the years. When I loved Old Fitzgerlad it was made by Brown-Forman to a 64-24-12 formula. Now, Old Fitz is with Heaven Hill and follows HH's generic wheated Bourbon formula you just posted. Although Old Fitz is still a great whiskey today, I'm not sure if it's really down to old stocks still available from the Brown-Forman days or exquisite aging in the warehouses. It certainly stands on its' own today, even if it is sharing the basic recipe. Regardless, it's not the same Whiskey anymore, no matter how good it is today.

To add to my problem, the Old Fitzgerald of today is not even available to me here in Scandinavia. So I do have a picture in my head, of the Old Fitz BIB 50%abv I had about 30 years ago, how I remember it tasting. I am trying to puzzle it together. All ideas are welcome. Aromas and flavors. Wheat is the key here.

[NormandieStill]

Thanks for a pretty clear and logical explanation. Basically, all we need to do is to mash the grain so the starch can be converted, the YLAY package do the rest. That's all I need to know, actually. Are you using this type of yeast, TrouNormande? I am old fashioned, like stupid, and I prefer old fashioned ways. I can add enzymes to my mash though, so I am also a hypocrite.

As long as the starches can be liberated, YLAY seems to work. Not sure how it would fare against whole corn, but it chews through anything ground that I've thrown at it.

I've done a batch of HBB using it, and plan (I'm very good at planning at the minute) on using it to do a side-by-side run of 100% wheat, corn, barley and rye whiskys to be able to identify the flavour contributions. The advantage here is that the method will be identical for all four which eliminates variables.

Prior to using YLAY for whisky, I added enzymes to my mashes as a backup. A few drops of alpha and gluco-amylase to help be certain that my method didn't cause any surprises. While I intend to go back to traditional mashes when I've got the space and time to do so, the fact that I can "cook up" a batch in about 30 mins including grinding the grain fits nicely with having three young children.

[Saltbush Bill]

Basically, all we need to do is to mash the grain so the starch can be converted, the YLAY package do the rest.

You don't need to mash anything when using the Yellow Lable starter of liquor making yeast.
A medium to fine grind, the correct ratio of water and grain to yeast and keeping it all at the right temprature is all that is required.
Suggest you read this thread.
viewtopic.php?t=76531

[PalCabral]

Thanks Bill. Will be reading it with my breakfast.