Upgrade to reflux - reinsure my plan?

[joschi]

Hello
I'm thinking about upgrading my pot still. I really like the look of bubble plates.
So better ask bevore i buy the wrong stuff:

My pot still has a 6" hole and two 3'500 Watt internal elements, so i thought, i go with 4" bubble plates (4 pcs plates?), then as an option, some 2" packet section (as long as possible), on top a 2" shotgun defhlegmator.

Is a 2" shotgun ok? How long minimum?
Is that okay, going from 4" plates to 2" packed section, if needed? (i'm not after the "perfekt" neutral atm, but you never know...)
Do i need a temperatur probe, or more then one?
Do i need a needle valve to control the water flow to the defhlegmator?

Would this be working out like that?

Thank you in advance
Joschi

[Salt Must Flow]

If making a cleanest neutral is your actual goal, I'd just go with a packed column. No bubble plates. A packed column is more efficient per inch than bubble plates.

[GrumbleStill]

The sweet spot for a 4” bubble plate is around 2400W, and a 2”packed section a bit below that, so you would need to be dialling back the power on your 2x3500W rig quite a bit to get it to run nicely.

As for the 2” shotty, check out the calculator here https://homedistiller.org/wiki/htm/calc ... enser.html to get a good idea on what size will work for you.

Personally, I have 2400W VM setup with 5x4” bubble plates and a 400mm x3” packed section. It bubbles along happily producing 2-2.2lph of neutral.

Hope that helps a bit.
Cheers

[SW_Shiner]

If neutral is the goal then a plated column is not the right still. It would pay to stick to the same diameter at least to the condenser. 4" plates - 4" packed section - 4" deflag. The 2" packed section needs less power to operate than 4" so youd either be running to fast and flooding the packed section to get the plates going good, or running too slow for the plate to get the packed section to behave.

[Saltbush Bill]

A lot of people use a packed column on top of plates with great success, it does work.
Adding a packed section to a plated column is a good modification/ addition if you wish to make neutral.
It just doesn't seem to be an idea that has ever taken off here on HD.
You will need a power controler as I suspect you will have too much power using even one element.
You should not need a temp probe/ thermometer, you should be able to go by taste and smell.
You will know when tails arrive by taste.
You will need a needle valve for fine water flow adjustment to the deflegmator.
Good luck and be sure to report back with results in the future.

[Yummyrum]

If you already had a plated still and wanted to make Neutral , then adding a packed section would be a cheap solution ti get you closer .

But , if you are wanting a Neutral from the start , then getting a packed column is the better alternative . It sounds like you have plenty of power . If I was you , I would get a 3” packed reflux still . A VM style would be my suggestion . Followed by a Boka or LM style . A CM style with a Defleg is IMO the worst method of all .

If you want a but if bling , just add a sight glass module under the takeoff area so you can watch for flooding and see the reflux falling .

BTW , my plated still has sat in the corner of my shed for years now . Went back to Pot and Thumper for Rum .

[jonnys_spirit]

If you’re after a lighter flavored spirit then plates should do that. If neutral, maybe a 3” x 60” packed column if you have the height. If full flavored spirit, then run it in pot mode. Thermo probes? It’s nice to track the temps to understand and learn what’s happening at different sections but you don’t need them.

I wouldn’t think of it as an upgrade to your pot still, rather a different tool for a different outcome.

Looking forward to see what you decide and your feedback over time.

Cheers,
jonny

[joschi]

Thank you all for the usefull information. Glad i asked.

Some more thinking on my side, probably, i go with the 4" bubble plates anyway, but take a 4" defhlagmator, so i could ad a 4" packed section if later need will be...

power control is no problem, 60" (1.6 Meter) hight is not possible in my shed, i have just around 60" space above the boiler, but reducer, condenser + elbow or T-section need to go somewhere....

What about cleaning this pubble plates? Is it "easy", or a bit of a mess?

[jonnys_spirit]

Cleaning with hot ethanol vapor for several hours and rinsing with water regularly is what I recommend

Cheers,
-j

[Salt Must Flow]

Thank you all for the usefull information. Glad i asked.

Some more thinking on my side, probably, i go with the 4" bubble plates anyway, but take a 4" defhlagmator, so i could ad a 4" packed section if later need will be...

power control is no problem, 60" (1.6 Meter) hight is not possible in my shed, i have just around 60" space above the boiler, but reducer, condenser + elbow or T-section need to go somewhere....

What about cleaning this pubble plates? Is it "easy", or a bit of a mess?

If making a cleanest neutral is your goal and height is limited ... that's another reason to NOT use bubble caps/plates. Since a packed column is more efficient per inch of column, you can reduce your take-off rate to achieve a higher % ABV. Even with a reduced take-off rate, you would achieve cleaner product in comparison to bubble caps/plates and likely the same or faster take-off rate as well.

Just be HONEST with yourself as to what your goal actually is. If your actual goal it to look at bubbles and not achieve a clean neutral, then get bubble caps/plates. If your goal is to achieve the cleanest neutral you can with your limited height, use a packed column.

[NZChris]

If you have a large boiler that makes much more product than you need, plates might be an upgrade.

If you are doing three or four stripping runs then a spirit run and the quantity that you are making is about right, It's probably a downgrade.

If you want to make neutral, it's not the best still head for that.

Decide what you want to make, then research what still head is best for making that.

Having a choice is good, so consider a Lego type still that gives you lots of options.

[Saltbush Bill]

I'd be interested to know how many who have commented on this thread have ever tasted spirit made from a good clean wash such as Shadys SS, which has been stripped and then been spirt run through four plates + a packed section.
I can tell you from experience it's pretty damn clean.
No..... I don't own a packed section , but I've been right next to them while they were being run and I've tasted the end product more than once.
I've also made gin using the same spirt, and not one person could tell the difference between it and gin made with spirit from a packed column.
But then opinions are like Aholes, everyone has one including me.

[NZChris]

I'd be interested to know how many who have commented on this thread have ever tasted spirit made from a good clean wash such as Shadys SS, which has been stripped and then been spirt run through four plates + a packed section.

Not me, that's for sure.

SSS is something that I've been making for over thirty years. The method predates my first ferments and I've never run it through a plater because I never found a good reason to do that.

[Saltbush Bill]

Quote
Not me, that's for sure.
SSS is something that I've been making for over thirty years.

Shame you never shared that recipe with the rest of the world right back then Chris, and a good thing that Shady was kind enough to do so.

Quote
I've never run it through a plater because I never found a good reason to do that.

Or could it be that the reason is that you've never owned a plater and packed section to know if it works or not.?

[Swedish Pride]

Having ran a pot and plates and plater (perfs) with a packed section but never a dedicated packed column, here is my take.

Three biggest things I experienced when moving from a pot to a plater.

Cleaner cuts- I struggled with cuts for the longest time on a potty, with a plater it becomes much easier.

One and done - you can run straight from wash/ mash to a finished product, no stripping runs needed.
It can still be of benefit to strip a few loads but if you need a bottle of booze this evening it's a great option.

Less bold flavours - whist you get flavour coming through it's not as bold as on a potty, you can get there but need a fair bit of mocking around.

I've three plates and a 60cm packed section, for my needs it's perfectly adequate.
I use the packed section maybe once or twice a year to make vodka for my wife who always uses mixers.
I'm no neutral aficionado, lack of flavour is boring to me, but as far as I can tell there in no flavour in there and I get to ≈96%.


These days I run in potty mode almost exclusively, chasing big flavours.
I say potty mode because I do run it through the plater, this way I can run with reflux when taking fores and heads and turn the reflux off when heads are almost done.
I believe it's harder to do with caps as they will load them selves even without reflux, or so I'm reading, I've never ran caps

[joschi]

i'm still not sure what to do.
If i would go with a packed column: Because i have only 60" (1.6 Meter) hight above the boiler, would it be good with a 4" column to compensate for the hight? I think i could squeeze in about 50" to 55" (1.4 meter max.) packed section.
or just go with 2", or 3".... ???

BTW: speed is a bit cruzial for me. I don't want or can sit there for 10 hours or more.

[Yummyrum]

You can’t just compensate for lack of height by increasing diameter . I wish who ever said 20years ago that height means purity and diameter means speed had never said what is possibly one of the most miss understood sentences in Home distilling .

4” packed you will still need it at least 2metres tall .

The requirements to run a 4”packed column to get the maximum available speed are ridiculous both in terms of Power, water coolant and boiler size .

This is where 3” is a great compromise between realistic practicalities and getting the job done fast . .

[30xs]

I think what he was trying to ask is. With only 55” of still head space what would be his best option. Let me just say I don’t/haven’t tried the neutrals yet. Just pulling from what I’ve read in this forum over the years.

55” would be sufficient for fitting a plated column on top of the still. It will produce a lighter flavored spirit, not it won’t be neutral. Tight cuts may get you something close to a vodka.

55” may also give you enough room to run a 45-48” packed column. Running properly sized lava rock, or SPP, you should be able to manage to be able to get a neutral, just at a slightly reduced takeoff rate compared to a 60” column. Should still be faster than a 2” column.

If you build over buy you can have the ability to shorten up your condenser a bit using a coil slightly bigger than Shady made to use as a defleg. Maybe have only 6-8” needed for the takeoff (VM) and condenser on top of the column. No bells and whistles of having a sight glass, but what’s in the jar doesn’t know it didn’t get to look out the window on the way out.

[GrumbleStill]

I'd be interested to know how many who have commented on this thread have ever tasted spirit made from a good clean wash such as Shadys SS, which has been stripped and then been spirt run through four plates + a packed section.
I can tell you from experience it's pretty damn clean.
No..... I don't own a packed section , but I've been right next to them while they were being run and I've tasted the end product more than once.
I've also made gin using the same spirt, and not one person could tell the difference between it and gin made with spirit from a packed column.
But then opinions are like Aholes, everyone has one including me.

Part of the beauty of this hobby is trying new things. I’m constantly playing with different configurations, and my latest is as mentioned above - VM with 5X4” plates (bubble caps) underneath a 400mm x 3” packed section. Column height around 1m / 36”. Prior to that I was running a 1m /36” x 2” packed column. So about the same height.

The new configuration has only had a couple of runs, but at this stage I’d say the main difference is output not quality. I could get 96% at 1.3 lph from the 2” at 1600W power. Any more power and she flooded.

The plates / packed hybrid can comfortably take 2400W and deliver 2.2 lph of 96% neutral from low wines that had been stripped to 40%.

I haven’t taken exact measurements, but I do feel like the hearts cut in the 2” column was a bit bigger.

Bottom line for me is that with the same available height, the plate / packed section hybrid can produce a product that is comparable to a straight packed section at a much higher output.

Edit - Comments relate to Neutral made from Shady’s.

[Saltbush Bill]

Thank you for your feedback Grumbles.

[LWTCS]

I'd be interested to know how many who have commented on this thread have ever tasted spirit made from a good clean wash such as Shadys SS, which has been stripped and then been spirt run through four plates + a packed section.
I can tell you from experience it's pretty damn clean.
No..... I don't own a packed section , but I've been right next to them while they were being run and I've tasted the end product more than once.
I've also made gin using the same spirt, and not one person could tell the difference between it and gin made with spirit from a packed column.
But then opinions are like Aholes, everyone has one including me.

Part of the beauty of this hobby is trying new things. I’m constantly playing with different configurations, and my latest is as mentioned above - VM with 5X4” plates (bubble caps) underneath a 400mm x 3” packed section. Column height around 1m / 36”. Prior to that I was running a 1m /36” x 2” packed column. So about the same height.

The new configuration has only had a couple of runs, but at this stage I’d say the main difference is output not quality. I could get 96% at 1.3 lph from the 2” at 1600W power. Any more power and she flooded.

The plates / packed hybrid can comfortably take 2400W and deliver 2.2 lph of 96% neutral from low wines that had been stripped to 40%.

I haven’t taken exact measurements, but I do feel like the hearts cut in the 2” column was a bit bigger.

Bottom line for me is that with the same available height, the plate / packed section hybrid can produce a product that is comparable to a straight packed section at a much higher output.

Edit - Comments relate to Neutral made from Shady’s.

I have theorized for a long time now that the deep liquid beds on the plates have more capacity to absorb unwanted heat that would otherwise travel further up the packed section. And since the plates are loaded with alcohol, it will be the alcohol (ABV) content at that plate level that will govern the flash point of the next phase change cycle at that plate level. Sort of a self regulating system that does a better job of manipulation of the packed section's temp gradient.
This is why (according to my theory) that the systems set up this way can run harder without impacting abv the same way a dedicated packed column is affected by what would otherwise be excessive heat input for a typical packed column. So it's not just about actual plate count vs theoretical plate count. It's also about not allowing an excessive amount of heat infiltrate the top part of the packed section.

I wish minime's experiments were available over on the old AD sight. He logged temp data that more or less reflected this theory.

[joschi]

The plates / packed hybrid can comfortably take 2400W and deliver 2.2 lph of 96% neutral from low wines that had been stripped to 40%.

GrumbleStill, i think you got me now, as mentioned, time is important for me, and 2.2 lph sounds fine, so i think i will go this route as well.
of course i will report back if i do it, but can take some time...

Thank you everyone for helping! I fully understand that a packed column would be best for neutral, but height is the limiting factor for me. (I certainly don't want to still outdoors, no way)

[Saltbush Bill]

I think you should find it a good all rounder.
Use it as a plated column
Option 2
Pot still if used without plates and coolent flow to deflegmator turned off......or if perforated plates are used there is no reason to remove them.
Option 3
Add packed section and get a good quality neutral at a good speed.