I need advice for the first fermentation.

[Saltbush Bill]

Rodger 1, it's also a good idea to learn to also use your senses in this hobby.
While hydrometers usually give accurate readings it's also useful to simply taste the mash or wash.
Once you are used to doing this it gives you another simple and fast method of knowing what is going on.
When mashing a quick taste will let you know if you have conversion , part conversion or no conversion at all.
Other tastes before pitching yeast, during fermentation and once you think fermentation has finished can all give you needed information.
Your finger is always close by and easy to find, they are harder to break than a hydrometer.
Dip one in and have a taste.

[Roger1]

Rodger 1, it's also a good idea to learn to also use your senses in this hobby.
While hydrometers usually give accurate readings it's also useful to simply taste the mash or wash.
Once you are used to doing this it gives you another simple and fast method of knowing what is going on.
When mashing a quick taste will let you know if you have conversion , part conversion or no conversion at all.
Other tastes before pitching yeast, during fermentation and once you think fermentation has finished can all give you needed information.
Your finger is always close by and easy to find, they are harder to break than a hydrometer.
Dip one in and have a taste.

Hi Bill,

I actually tasted it, and the first barrel clearly has the smell and taste of alcohol. However, the second barrel, despite showing a reading of 1050, doesn’t have any sweetness. Instead, it has a sharp, vinegary taste. Thanks for your guidance.

[shadylane]

Just one question: Do you confirm using 1 gram of yeast for every kilogram or two pounds of grains?

The enzyme I use is liquid and the dosage is 3.5ml per 10 lbs.
I'm not sure what the recommendation is with powered enzymes you have available but 1gram per kilo sounds right.
If in doubt you can always use more.

[Roger1]

Just one question: Do you confirm using 1 gram of yeast for every kilogram or two pounds of grains?

The enzyme I use is liquid and the dosage is 3.5ml per 10 lbs.
I'm not sure what the recommendation is with powered enzymes you have available but 1gram per kilo sounds right.
If in doubt you can always use more.

I meant using 1 gram of baker's yeast for 2 pounds of grains.

[SW_Shiner]

The amount of grain doesn't really have anything to do with how much yeast you need. Well, sort of, of course grain make the sugar. But its better to think about more about wash volume, and type of yeast. I use about 125gm (half a bottle) of bakers yeast for pretty much any wash. Whether its a 30-60L whiskey or a 60-100L rum or sugar wash. There may be some recipes that list a specific amount but most i have seem tend to measure yeast by the handful or sprinkle. Less yeast may mean slower ferment times. Though going by what a lot of manufactures say on the back of small packs you can buy from homebrew shop. 5-7g is usually good for about 30L of fermentable liquid.

[shadylane]

I meant using 1 gram of baker's yeast for 2 pounds of grains.

Bakers yeast is cheap, I'd pitch at least 5 times as much.
Maybe even 10 times or much more if only sprinkling the yeast on to the ferment.
If fermenting under adverse conditions, over pitch so the yeast gets a massive running head start.
Also if you reuse the barrel that made vinegar, clean and try to sterilize it as much as possible.

[Roger1]

The amount of grain doesn't really have anything to do with how much yeast you need. Well, sort of, of course grain make the sugar. But its better to think about more about wash volume, and type of yeast. I use about 125gm (half a bottle) of bakers yeast for pretty much any wash. Whether its a 30-60L whiskey or a 60-100L rum or sugar wash. There may be some recipes that list a specific amount but most i have seem tend to measure yeast by the handful or sprinkle. Less yeast may mean slower ferment times. Though going by what a lot of manufactures say on the back of small packs you can buy from homebrew shop. 5-7g is usually good for about 30L of fermentable liquid.

I’m still getting used to the idea that I’m actually fermenting grains.

Since I had been making brandy for years, and it was difficult to find specialized fruit yeast here, we had to use baker’s yeast for fermenting fruit. Because of that, we always tried to keep the yeast amount to a minimum to avoid giving the fruit fermentation a bread-like smell. Now that I’ve seen the amounts you and Shadylane mentioned, I realize that baker’s yeast can actually be used more generously.

[Roger1]

I meant using 1 gram of baker's yeast for 2 pounds of grains.

Bakers yeast is cheap, I'd pitch at least 5 times as much.
Maybe even 10 times or much more if only sprinkling the yeast on to the ferment.
If fermenting under adverse conditions, over pitch so the yeast gets a massive running head start.
Also if you reuse the barrel that made vinegar, clean and try to sterilize it as much as possible.

This amount of yeast ensures a strong fermentation.

For sanitizing the barrel, I use a 10% hypochlorite solution (bleach) and leave the barrel in the sun for a day or two.

[Pure Old Possum Piss]

Yeast are interesting critters. Sorta like people they have 2 phases of life. Before puberty people concentrate on growing and learning , but after puberty...
Yeast are simular but in their early phase, the aerobic stage, all they want to do is reproduce, also called budding. A single Yeast cell will double itself every 15 mins in warm conditions but it may take up to an hour in cold temps. Once a Yeast colony reaches a max saturation population they will slow down on the breeding and begin to produce CO2 and alcohol. This is the anaerobic Stage.
But as fast as Yeast reproduce/double, there's isn't really a need to pitch a bunch of Yeast unless your pitching into a Yeast unfriendly environment that nasty bacteria can outpace the good Yeast. Example: 50 gal mash. You can pitch a whole lb of yeast or a teaspoon. If you pitch a teaspoon, they will Bud and in 1 hour you'll have 2-4 spoons of yeast in the mash, at 2 hours 4-16 spoons. In least than 24 hours a spoonful of yeast can reproduce/double colony size ever hour so than within 24 hours there are several lbs of yeast in that 50 gal mash. It's not linear, it's exponential. If there's a billion yeast in a spoon and you pitch it, 15 mins there could be 2 billion yeast, in an hour over 8 billion, and every 15 mins they can double, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256 billion... and they just keep on breeding until they reach saturation.
If you pitched a whole lb to begin with it would only out pace a spoonful for a couple hours, so over pitching is basically a waste of money for Yeast.
If you get the ph and environment right for Yeast by sour mashing there isn't much need to worry about Nasties taking over your mash, and you can get the same results whether you pitch a spoon or a lb.

[Roger1]

Yeast are interesting critters. Sorta like people they have 2 phases of life. Before puberty people concentrate on growing and learning , but after puberty...
Yeast are simular but in their early phase, the aerobic stage, all they want to do is reproduce, also called budding. A single Yeast cell will double itself every 15 mins in warm conditions but it may take up to an hour in cold temps. Once a Yeast colony reaches a max saturation population they will slow down on the breeding and begin to produce CO2 and alcohol. This is the anaerobic Stage.
But as fast as Yeast reproduce/double, there's isn't really a need to pitch a bunch of Yeast unless your pitching into a Yeast unfriendly environment that nasty bacteria can outpace the good Yeast. Example: 50 gal mash. You can pitch a whole lb of yeast or a teaspoon. If you pitch a teaspoon, they will Bud and in 1 hour you'll have 2-4 spoons of yeast in the mash, at 2 hours 4-16 spoons. In least than 24 hours a spoonful of yeast can reproduce/double colony size ever hour so than within 24 hours there are several lbs of yeast in that 50 gal mash. It's not linear, it's exponential. If there's a billion yeast in a spoon and you pitch it, 15 mins there could be 2 billion yeast, in an hour over 8 billion, and every 15 mins they can double, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256 billion... and they just keep on breeding until they reach saturation.
If you pitched a whole lb to begin with it would only out pace a spoonful for a couple hours, so over pitching is basically a waste of money for Yeast.
If you get the ph and environment right for Yeast by sour mashing there isn't much need to worry about Nasties taking over your mash, and you can get the same results whether you pitch a spoon or a lb.

Hi
Sorry for the late reply, I haven’t checked in here for a few days.

You brought up an interesting and completely valid point—under normal fermentation conditions, it can definitely be relied upon. However, based on previous experience, I prefer to use a slightly higher amount of yeast to guarantee a suitable fermentation environment. I usually use much less yeast than the manufacturer recommends when fermenting fruits, and just as you mentioned, I propagate the yeast by preparing several small and successive starter batches from the same fruit. For example, for fermenting 100 pounds of raisins, where the manufacturer recommends about 8 packs of Lalvin EC1118 yeast, I accomplish it by propagating just 2 packs of yeast.

Thanks again for your valuable input.

[Roger1]

I meant using 1 gram of baker's yeast for 2 pounds of grains.

Bakers yeast is cheap, I'd pitch at least 5 times as much.
Maybe even 10 times or much more if only sprinkling the yeast on to the ferment.
If fermenting under adverse conditions, over pitch so the yeast gets a massive running head start.
Also if you reuse the barrel that made vinegar, clean and try to sterilize it as much as possible.

Hi shadylane

I discarded the second barrel, then disinfected it and left it in the sun and fresh air for a few days. I got another 100 pounds of crushed wheat and now I'm mashing it according to your recommendation will protect my barrel from evil spirits and lacto infection.

[shadylane]

Since I don't have experience fermenting grains, I wanted to include some dextrose in the mix as well.

You can add sugar and water to the mash, keep the gravity around 1.060 - 1.070 (15 -17 Brix)
If the starting gravity is higher than this the fermentation will become progressively more difficult and take longer.

[Pure Old Possum Piss]

I just started back after a 2 year absence due to the bypass.
I checked couple of old mash barrels and what's left in them smells great. No vinegar. But I stirred them and pulled a few jars, added sugar and no bubbles. My yeast died and my Lacto too. Guess I'm gonna have to break down and buy some yeast for the first time in about 20 years. And pray that I can get another good Lacto infection.

[Roger1]

Since I don't have experience fermenting grains, I wanted to include some dextrose in the mix as well.

You can add sugar and water to the mash, keep the gravity around 1.060 - 1.070 (15 -17 Brix)
If the starting gravity is higher than this the fermentation will become progressively more difficult and take longer.

This is a good idea!
Yesterday, I mashed two pots, and now two-thirds of the barrel is filled with grain puree.
I have corn dextrose, and I've heard that it produces smooth alcohol without a harsh bite. I’ll fill the remaining third of the barrel with water and dextrose.

[Roger1]

I just started back after a 2 year absence due to the bypass.
I checked couple of old mash barrels and what's left in them smells great. No vinegar. But I stirred them and pulled a few jars, added sugar and no bubbles. My yeast died and my Lacto too. Guess I'm gonna have to break down and buy some yeast for the first time in about 20 years. And pray that I can get another good Lacto infection.

I’ve read a lot about good Lacto infections, but I still haven’t understood whether this is beneficial for whiskey or if it’s also useful for vodka.

Since vodka is typically expected to be a flavorless drink with a light mouthfeel, does Lacto help produce something like that?

[Pure Old Possum Piss]

I just started back after a 2 year absence due to the bypass.
I checked couple of old mash barrels and what's left in them smells great. No vinegar. But I stirred them and pulled a few jars, added sugar and no bubbles. My yeast died and my Lacto too. Guess I'm gonna have to break down and buy some yeast for the first time in about 20 years. And pray that I can get another good Lacto infection.

I’ve read a lot about good Lacto infections, but I still haven’t understood whether this is beneficial for whiskey or if it’s also useful for vodka.

Since vodka is typically expected to be a flavorless drink with a light mouthfeel, does Lacto help produce something like that?

I don't think I'd matter much. A vodka at 190 proof, most all the taste had been stripped.

[shadylane]

Since vodka is typically expected to be a flavorless drink with a light mouthfeel, does Lacto help produce something like that?

I'd recommend against intentional bacteria infections, it would be too difficult to control and likely lead to failure.
What's needed for vodka is a clean healthy fermentation.
Mash at a high enough temp to kill off the bacteria, cool the mash fast and pitch yeast that's been hydrated in 100'f - 38'c water.
If you want to save on yeast, Scoop a bucket full out of a fermenter that's actively working and pour it into the next batch.
Obviously you wouldn't want to do this too many times due to yeast mutation and bacteria infections building up over time.

[TDick]

Hello friends,
My aim is to create a tasty vodka with a subtle, pleasant grain flavor.

I've read in several places on forum that some people also use beta-amylase enzymes. Should I prepare beta-amylase as well, or are alpha and gluco-amylase enzymes sufficient?
Is it sufficient to use 1 gram of each enzyme for every kilogram of grain.

I’m just getting back into the forum but this caused a flashback to 7-8 years ago.
FULL DISCLOSURE- At the time this guy Sherman was selling Amalyse and other stuff, also had a forum similar to this
(MUCH SMALLER scale)
Then he forgot the first rule of Hobby Distilling
Don’t Tell- Don’t SALE.
He made the news when his commercial operation got busted! Last I heard he was down in the Caribbean.
Anyway, while this is corn it’s fairly detailed and may help.

[shadylane]

Sherman's AKA pintoshine method works great.

[Saltbush Bill]

I think you will also find that Pint wasn't selling.

[TDick]

I think you will also find that Pint wasn't selling.

In case it sounded that way, I did NOT mean to be critical at all.
I messaged Sherman a few times back in the Artisan Resources days and he was always a friendly, helpful guy.
And I don't want to derail this thread - although the original news story CLAIMED that the operation was producing 200 gallons per week
"some for sale" google does NOT find any information concerning a trial.
I did know Sheman was an Engineer in the asphalt business and after "the trouble" was working down in the Virgin Islands.
Now according to LinkedIn he's back in Kentucky and hopefully doing well.