Distillate temp out of the condenser VS fiery taste.

[shadylane]

I started this post so as to not highjack another where the question of distillate temp VS fiery taste was brought up.
Popcorn and others have said the temp out of the PC makes a difference.
I disagree that hot or even warm makes a detrimental difference. Maybe it's just the opposite.

[Tammuz]

With just the difference in gas/vapor at different temps I think would cause a difference. And if it was what I posted it was only for Rye and I wasn't referring to the distillate burn in your throat if that's what you meant by fiery.An old Tequilero told me that a problem with my still design was there was nowhere to vent bad vapor. I asked A. Bishop about a vent hose I have in my design at the top of my condenser. He felt it was unnecessary but I'm keeping it. My guy makes some of the best highland tequila and the scots do it I'm going to try. I have a separate condenser for that line. If what comes out of it tastes like what's coming out of my PC then I'll scrap it.

[OtisT]

I’ve run quite a few batches using a dimroth PC, and many of those batches produced very warm output. The hottest were big strips, and a handful were big volume/long duration pot still spirit runs. I’ve never noticed the hot temp output impacting output quality. None of my batches scientifically tested for this, but I would have noticed a “hot” tasting batch a I just don’t recall any.

What is the theory behind this subject? I put on my biggest tinfoil hat and I still can’t think up a reason why it would matter.

Posted in parallel with Tammuz. If this is about tasting differences at different temps, I don’t have an opinion. I thought this was just about collection temp and assumed any tasting comparisons would be done at similar temps.

[SW_Shiner]

I’ve never noticed a difference through my boka. I did my first few runs in new still before my cooler had arrived, I’ve not seen the need to put it on, other than for having the distillate cool enough for alchometer. Sure there’s a difference if you’re tasting the hot distillate, but once it’s cooled and proofed I can’t tell if there’s an extra fiery taste.

[jonnys_spirit]

I put on my biggest tinfoil hat and I still can’t think up a reason why it would matter.

Try changing to your cooper knit mesh cap? That works for me lol

Herrs,
-jonny

[Pure Old Possum Piss]

Product output temp has nothing to do with the "fiery bite".
You get the "bite" from using sugar. Any Rot Gut Sugar Shit is gonna have bite. But if you include too much early heads you can get bite with All Grain.

[Pure Old Possum Piss]

From a physics stand point, If the product came out of the condenser hot (temp just between heads and hearts) it "could" cause heads to evaporate while condensing hearts and all the other lower volatile alcohols. You can't run a still by temp, and there's always gonna be smearing, but there are fine temp points between fractions. If you could figure them out and control them you could stack fractions within the PC instead of using temps in the pot and lyne arm. It's all theory but If you could control the temp in the pc to a fine enough degree, you could collect hearts while letting heads evaporate away. I'm not sure that makes any sense.

[Stags]

With just the difference in gas/vapor at different temps I think would cause a difference. And if it was what I posted it was only for Rye and I wasn't referring to the distillate burn in your throat if that's what you meant by fiery.An old Tequilero told me that a problem with my still design was there was nowhere to vent bad vapor. I asked A. Bishop about a vent hose I have in my design at the top of my condenser. He felt it was unnecessary but I'm keeping it. My guy makes some of the best highland tequila and the scots do it I'm going to try. I have a separate condenser for that line. If what comes out of it tastes like what's coming out of my PC then I'll scrap it.

… isn’t that why we make cuts? Seems like an unnecessary complexity vs making good cuts

[Stags]

@shady assuming you’re talking about Popcorn Sutton?

I’m not his biographer but one thing I would call out that some may not know is that Popcorn and co. Likely used the most rudimentary of pot stills with either wood or gas fuel. If wood, temp control is hard to manage. He likely couldn’t have imagined an electrically powered flute. All that to say that they likely went overkill on condensers just due to the inherent instability of the heat from wood fires and temperature variability in the south.

Possums point is well made but that’s such a fine equilibrium I don’t think it’s realistic for hobby scale.

One of the possibilities I think is valid is that this is a case of mistaken causality- and a reason we should all be intimately acquainted with our rigs.

As a case study. I practice our hobby in my detached garage without independent heat or AC. Interior temps can vary from 40 degrees in winter to 100+ in summer. I run a 10 gal pot/ 5 gallon thump and 3 gallon worm. All copper no insulation. In summer tap water temp can get up to 80 degrees, in winter it’s generally 50ish. If I run with the same power levels and water flow into my condenser I can get different results, although I think the temp of the distillate at the spout has no impact.

In summer, if I don’t chill cooling water, minimum takeoff by my logic is probably a little north of 80° with 80° cooling water. In winter I can’t hardly get above 60°.

I do believe that for me winter is peak stilling season. I’ve always enjoyed the things made in winter more. The only cause I can think of is increased internal reflux from running a pot still in a 40° room versus in a 100° room. Regardless of temp off the spout I think the products tastes better. I also think it’s easier to manage- when it’s cold I find I can be a little more lax about fine tuning power and coolant flow.

All of that to say- it wouldn’t surprise me if that rule of thumb was true for popcorn and his contemporaries but I believe the real actual cause was passive reflux. Cool distillate would be a symptom, not a cause

[NZChris]

From a physics stand point, If the product came out of the condenser hot (temp just between heads and hearts) it "could" cause heads to evaporate while condensing hearts and all the other lower volatile alcohols. You can't run a still by temp, and there's always gonna be smearing, but there are fine temp points between fractions. If you could figure them out and control them you could stack fractions within the PC instead of using temps in the pot and lyne arm. It's all theory but If you could control the temp in the pc to a fine enough degree, you could collect hearts while letting heads evaporate away. I'm not sure that makes any sense.

That sounds suspiciously like a variation of the Magic Boiling Point Myth.

For flavored products, it is the amounts of the various VOCs that you retain in the hearts that make your products flavorsome and desirible, just as much as it is about the amounts of those same VOCs that you remove in the heads and tails.

[subbrew]

e of the possibilities I think is valid is that this is a case of mistaken causality- and a reason we should all be intimately acquainted with our rigs.

As a case study. I practice our hobby in my detached garage without independent heat or AC. Interior temps can vary from 40 degrees in winter to 100+ in summer. I run a 10 gal pot/ 5 gallon thump and 3 gallon worm. All copper no insulation. In summer tap water temp can get up to 80 degrees, in winter it’s generally 50ish. If I run with the same power levels and water flow into my condenser I can get different results, although I think the temp of the distillate at the spout has no impact.

In summer, if I don’t chill cooling water, minimum takeoff by my logic is probably a little north of 80° with 80° cooling water. In winter I can’t hardly get above 60°.

I do believe that for me winter is peak stilling season. I’ve always enjoyed the things made in winter more. The only cause I can think of is increased internal reflux from running a pot still in a 40° room versus in a 100° room. Regardless of temp off the spout I think the products tastes better. I also think it’s easier to manage- when it’s cold I find I can be a little more lax about fine tuning power and coolant flow.

All of that to say- it wouldn’t surprise me if that rule of thumb was true for popcorn and his contemporaries but I believe the real actual cause was passive reflux. Cool distillate would be a symptom, not a cause

Stags, do you have temp control on your ferment? If not, my theory is that difference in fermentation temps is probably a large factor in why you enjoy winter product more than summer.

[Bee]

A nice craft distiller told me they only made runs at certain times of the year, IIRC, Fall-Spring, due to water temps. It was during a tour and I didn't catch why other than it had to do with water temp.

[Stags]

e of the possibilities I think is valid is that this is a case of mistaken causality- and a reason we should all be intimately acquainted with our rigs.

As a case study. I practice our hobby in my detached garage without independent heat or AC. Interior temps can vary from 40 degrees in winter to 100+ in summer. I run a 10 gal pot/ 5 gallon thump and 3 gallon worm. All copper no insulation. In summer tap water temp can get up to 80 degrees, in winter it’s generally 50ish. If I run with the same power levels and water flow into my condenser I can get different results, although I think the temp of the distillate at the spout has no impact.

In summer, if I don’t chill cooling water, minimum takeoff by my logic is probably a little north of 80° with 80° cooling water. In winter I can’t hardly get above 60°.

I do believe that for me winter is peak stilling season. I’ve always enjoyed the things made in winter more. The only cause I can think of is increased internal reflux from running a pot still in a 40° room versus in a 100° room. Regardless of temp off the spout I think the products tastes better. I also think it’s easier to manage- when it’s cold I find I can be a little more lax about fine tuning power and coolant flow.

All of that to say- it wouldn’t surprise me if that rule of thumb was true for popcorn and his contemporaries but I believe the real actual cause was passive reflux. Cool distillate would be a symptom, not a cause

Stags, do you have temp control on your ferment? If not, my theory is that difference in fermentation temps is probably a large factor in why you enjoy winter product more than summer.

I have one way temp control for my ferments yes. 25 and 55 gallon barrels with thermostat controlled seed warming blankets under double foil insulation. Thermostat location is 1/2 way up the side of the barrel, uncovered by the mat if possible. Maintains temp with a +\- 3° margin of error.

If I generally exclusively use Omega Dry Lutra Kveik. Pitch at a mash or wash temp of 100°, let her rip. Most ferments drop to 90-95 during propagation and then finish back around 100 regardless of external temperature. My recent off grain scotch ferments have been finishing in 48 hours or less. I know the ferment is done when it drops to my min temp of 70°- rarely ever see that with the ferment active unless I’ve got an infection, acid trap, or something else going on.

All of that to say- I use a lot more electricity in winter but the ferments are pretty consistent. Not saying that can’t impact things but it wouldn’t be my first assumption.