Aging dilemma

[RockinRockies]

Hey everyone,

We went nuts the last two years and all winter just cranked out product to fill barrels I got cheap. We ran 2-3 plates cloudy, which i am regretting. Likely, I also pushed the product to hard and fast, so there's that. Here's what I'm noticing and thoughts would be appreciated.

We took our rum, navy strength, aged 18 months in first used 15 gallon bourbon barrel, then, the other 15 i filled with a 4 grain bourbon. I didn't like the progress at 1 year ago we combined the 15 gallon smoked bourbon with 15 gallon non smoked. Might have been a mistake. Recipe was with a post oak and mesquite smoked bourbon same recipe. Took the fresh used bourbon barrel and placed the rum in that. Presents a bourbon up front, melts into rum with nice roasted touch from coconut oil and butter in boiler. It's a fine rum. I'm contemplating bottling now at 2 years.

The bourbon combination is in a 30 gallon for over a year with about 4 gallons or more lost already to angels share. It numbs the lips at 125 proof (maybe the cloudy wash and too much heads contribute to this). It's still very boring and stingy, i was hoping for more depth at 18 months. Color is glorious deep amber. Barrel proof from commercial doesn't numb this bad, is that heads?

Here's my dilemma: i sent it full throttle because i was tired of bland stick aging, and i figured best way to reproduce complexity is bigger barrels. I'm not impressed with these barrel mill barrels. They are garbage and impart vegetal notes, that even the guys on the whiskey vault mentioned. No doubt, i can concur.

So now I'm stuck. My sweetfeed that is aging in the used 4 grain smoked bourbon barrel, 12 of 15 gallons left.. it's rubbery tasting and not good like an islay. So I'm thinking of re running and leaving white with conservative cuts. Thoughts?

The rum, likely bottle it. It's enjoyable.

The other 26 gallons or so, I'm thinking of splitting into two:
One, go back into used rum barrel, fill it, and leave it one more year.
The rest... re run? I don't know. It's numbing to the lips.

I threw a lot at you folks but I'm upset with my decision making and i want to attempt to salvage our labor and money. I am willing to send free samples in a month or two when i get around to it, to get feedback, so if anyone is interested to pick this apart, pm me and I'll get around to it in November

[NZChris]

Of course it numbs at 125 proof. Try it at 80.

[tjsc5f]

I have experienced some tingles on young (2-3 year), cask strength commercial bourbons and ryes. I always assume it's heads, but don't really know for sure.
On the flip side, I have a 17yr 153proof bourbon that drinks like a younger 120 proof and doesn't tingle at all.
I think you're just not waiting long enough considering your barrel sizes. 10gal barrels start getting good around the 2yr mark, I would think a 15gal would take at least 3yrs? 30gal 4yrs?

[Broken Jug]

I agree with Swill Maker. You need more time in the barrel. The larger the barrel, the more time needed to get the results you want.

I have tried cheating on time in a 5-gallon barrel with some rum, thinking one year was plenty of time. I was wrong, the rum still tasted like shit.

I waited until it was two years old before tasting it again, it tasted MUCH better but still not to my liking.

I tasted it again at three years old (June 2024), it was/is amazing! I left it full strength of 136 proof and bottled it.


I believe if you leave your whiskey in the 30-gallon barrel for another 3 or 4 more years, you’ll love it.

But, if you have some really bad off flavors, you might be better off redistilling it and then barrel it for a minimum of 3 to 4 years.

Good luck!

[Renhoekk]

“Tingles” are to be expected at that proof - I’ve had premium whiskey aged 10+ years and bottled at 60% that gave tingles. While yours may be more intense, yours is still a young product.

Two things: 18 months isn’t a lot of time to mellow out a spirit regardless of the proof you bottle at, and if you want to get a handle on how the flavours are developing then you should dilute down to 20%. This takes the alcohol bite out of the equation and lets you hone in on the actual taste of the spirit.

[RockinRockies]

Ok thanks everyone. The angels share in Colorado is insane

[RockinRockies]

I just tested the bourbon watered down, better than expected, still smells like wet wood.. I'm worried about losing half of all that work to the angels though

I can say that if i smoke grains again, i will avoid aging it on wood. It has drastically diminished already.

[NZChris]

Aging in glass, I still lose some to the angels because the corks aren’t tight, but I can age for many years longer than I could if I used small barrels.

[Broken Jug]

Ok thanks everyone. The angels share in Colorado is insane

I live in western Colorado. And yes, Colorado has a really dry climate which can be a problem, especially for small format barrels.

With that said, I lost approx 2 gallons of rum to the angels out of my used 5-gallon Rye barrel over 3-years, but what they left me is awsome (I stored my barrel in my shed that is insulted and climate controlled).

Don't be worried about the angel share. If you are, keep a few quarts aside to top your barrel off after a year or two.

Just my two cents worth.

[RockinRockies]

Wow!
Pardon for the resurrected thread
Thanks for the information

[Orpheus123]

Aging in glass, I still lose some to the angels because the corks aren’t tight, but I can age for many years longer than I could if I used small barrels.

Question on that if you don't mind.

When you say corks, do you mean you are aging in bottles? Or just jars with big corks as stoppers?

Reason I ask is, I'm finally to the point where I'm pretty happy with the product off the still, and now it's a matter of figuring out aging.

Last year I bought a 3 liter barrel and loaded it with 3 liters of my bourbon. I don't have my notes in front of me, but it basically stayed in the barrel for 7 months. I was going for 9 months, but I lost so much to the angels, like probably close to half, that I decided that I would bottle it at that point. It really did come out quite good, and my friends even said (and they've tried all my products to this point) that it was actually really good, tasted like something from the store.

SO...I endeavored to try it in jars this last run, using charred oak spirals. I had 3.1 liters in 3 separate jars. I let it sit with coffee filters on top, underneath the lids, to allow for some evaporation. after a couple of weeks, I lost maybe 50 to 100 ml per jar. For the next few weeks I tested it occasionally. It's smooth (110 proof going in), the color is great, but the taste has that...I dunno, glass jar aging funk taste. My son and I surmised that the angels share, while punitive, is actually necessary to get a good product. SO...I put the 3 liters into the barrel (already used for the last batch) for another 29 days. That seemed to help it a lot, but it's still not as good as the purely barrelled spirit from last year.

Finally, my question to you is, would you recommend perhaps leaving the jars lidless (just put coffee filters over the top with rubber bands) so that I lose more angels share? Wood chips, cubes, staves or spirals? The goal is to figure out how to age stuff using jars because barrels are bloody expensive. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[subbrew]

Orpheus - I use corks on my jars. They are 1/2 gallon jars (US) and a wide mouth. I seat the corks firmly. I have some that has been in over two years and lose at most 10%. I tried spirals and didn't care for them. They gave more of a woody taste. I now use fingers cut from barrel staves, about 1.5 cm by 1.5 cm by 7 or 8 cm (I hope that equates to 3/4 by 3/4 by 3 to 4 inches) long and am happy with two of those, one charred and one plain per jar.

I use badmo clones as well. On a 1.75 gallon fill they seem to lose about 2 cups the first year but less after that. I have some that are just over three years. I topped them up after the first year but have left them alone since.

[NZChris]

I don’t use wide mouth jars as I can’t get natural cork bungs for them. I’ve seen an agglomerated bung disintegrate after a few months looking after a barrel proof product, so I don’t do it.

I don’t air perfectly good products. It’s wasteful. I leave some headspace for O2 and blow across the top every time I open it.

[Orpheus123]

Orpheus - I use corks on my jars. They are 1/2 gallon jars (US) and a wide mouth. I seat the corks firmly. I have some that has been in over two years and lose at most 10%. I tried spirals and didn't care for them. They gave more of a woody taste. I now use fingers cut from barrel staves, about 1.5 cm by 1.5 cm by 7 or 8 cm (I hope that equates to 3/4 by 3/4 by 3 to 4 inches) long and am happy with two of those, one charred and one plain per jar.

I use badmo clones as well. On a 1.75 gallon fill they seem to lose about 2 cups the first year but less after that. I have some that are just over three years. I topped them up after the first year but have left them alone since.

Thanks, I was wondering about the Badmotivaors, they are not cheap but they seem to last. As I understand it, they mimic larger barrel aging, so it takes years to get your spirit right. I'm thinking of getting the 5 gallon size some time and then just filling it up and leaving it for a few years.

But for now, I'm using jars and then finishing it the barrel. I've used chips, cubes and spirals, and I've not really been overly happy with any of them, the barrel was by far the best result, but the loss was huge as well. Eh. Perhaps fingers next. I've got a rye on the ferment right now, so I have some time to figure out what I want to do with that. I'm just trying to get more of the barrel flavor out of the jar...

When you say one plain, you mean no toast at all, just seasoned?

[Orpheus123]

I don’t use wide mouth jars as I can’t get natural cork bungs for them. I’ve seen an agglomerated bung disintegrate after a few months looking after a barrel proof product, so I don’t do it.

I don’t air perfectly good products. It’s wasteful. I leave some headspace for O2 and blow across the top every time I open it.

What do you mean by "I don't air perfectly good products"?

[Saltbush Bill]

I've used chips, cubes and spirals, and I've not really been overly happy with any of them,

For years now experienced distillers have been warning the newer folk against using those things for oaking.
Home charred fingers or commercially toasted Domino's like those sold by Still Dragon produce a better end product every time.
If you can afford a Badmo or a barrel even better.

[SW_Shiner]

I don’t use wide mouth jars as I can’t get natural cork bungs for them. I’ve seen an agglomerated bung disintegrate after a few months looking after a barrel proof product, so I don’t do it.

I don’t air perfectly good products. It’s wasteful. I leave some headspace for O2 and blow across the top every time I open it.

What do you mean by "I don't air perfectly good products"?

Some people like to leave jars sitting out and open for a period of time, claiming that some bad volatiles would gas off. When really, there shouldn't be any "bad volatiles" as anything that would be, would have come over earlier during the distillation. Just good product evaporating away.

[NZChris]

I mean I don’t follow people who follow people who follow people who post stuff without having done their homework, sometimes doubling up on the technique each time thinking that that would be even better.

If you know some science behind extreme airing, go for it.

[subbrew]

When you say one plain, you mean no toast at all, just seasoned?

I have used toasted and some just cut from the stave. I can't tell a big difference. There might be a bit more vanilla and sweetness from the toasted ones. But since the staves were charred at one point, even the ones not subjected to toasting by me had some heat applied.

I do have an advantage on my wood as the barrel I purchased was from a craft distillery and they could not get it to seal. So it had not been used that long, not like purchasing a used jack daniels barrel that had 4 years of whiskey removing the wood flavors.