Questions about angel share in smaller barrels

[PalCabral]

In a different thread (Aging Dilemma) losses to angel share was discussed. Instead of high jacking that thread, I thought I create a separate thread on this topic.

Is correctly understood that the rate of angel share is higher the smaller the barrel is? I've read comments where as much as 50% of the contents in a small barrel has evaporated within a year of aging. It makes sense, I think, due to the higher spirit to wood ratio. That's a lot of loss, but I guess if the remaining spirits are concentrated with good flavors there is still a pay off? Is that the case?

I know the French top up their Cognac barrels with unaged brandy to keep the volume of the spirits in the barrel consistent. In a way it's sort of dynamic aging, mixing unaged brandy with the aged stuff. This is, as far as I know, not allowed in American Whiskey production but home distillers don't obey laws so why not? It will dilute the aged spirit but it's definitely a way to get the "solera" effect on the aged spirits.

Is it worth aging on gallon sized barrels?

[higgins]

...
Is it worth aging on gallon sized barrels?

My opinion on that is a big, fat NO.

Back in 2021 I filled a once-used 5 liter oak barrel with a single malt. After 2 1/2 months it was down to 3.8 liters (no sampling was involved, and no leakage), plus it had dropped from 125 proof to 110 proof. After another month it was down to 3.5 liters, so I decided to get the juice out before it was all gone. I put it in glass with used sticks.

One thing I thought about doing was to coat the outside of the barrel body (not the heads) with beeswax to minimize evaporation, but I never tried it.

I make batch sizes so that I can fill a badmo clone and have at least 1-2 liters left to age in glass and use for topping up. I bought a badmo 3 yrs ago, but can't afford very many, so I learned to make them. I already had a hobby wood shop, so they only cost me about 25-30 USD to make. That first one was filled with bourbon, and is now 3 yrs old and quite good, with just a small amount of loss.

[PalCabral]

My opinion on that is a big, fat NO.

Back in 2021 I filled a once-used 5 liter oak barrel with a single malt. After 2 1/2 months it was down to 3.8 liters (no sampling was involved, and no leakage), plus it had dropped from 125 proof to 110 proof. After another month it was down to 3.5 liters, so I decided to get the juice out before it was all gone. I put it in glass with used sticks.

One thing I thought about doing was to coat the outside of the barrel body (not the heads) with beeswax to minimize evaporation, but I never tried it.

I make batch sizes so that I can fill a badmo clone and have at least 1-2 liters left to age in glass and use for topping up. I bought a badmo 3 yrs ago, but can't afford very many, so I learned to make them. I already had a hobby wood shop, so they only cost me about 25-30 USD to make. That first one was filled with bourbon, and is now 3 yrs old and quite good, with just a small amount of loss.

Yeah, to put in all that time into making a good product and see it all go up in fumes is beyond sad. I have a gallon sized barrel that I haven't used yet. For the reasons you mentioned. I've been priming it with sherry for the last 3-4 months. I am thinking of using it as my finalization barrel, a couple of weeks or months before bottling. Only problem is I haven't got anything to bottle for at least 3 months - probably even more.

The badmo is practical in many ways. Brilliant design. But pricey. I have connection with a cooperage in Portugal where I can get a 20L barrel in white american oak for the same price as the badmo 6,4L. But with my small production, I won't need a 20L barrel for another 4 years... I'll stick to glass jars and oak sticks for a bit longer.

[8Ball]

I was gifted a cheap little “1G” cask that was bought on Amazon. I topped it off with some 5 month old bourbon I had aging in glass. Plan is to leave it in there for three months and then dump the cask to see how much the angel share will be. If its not too excessive — and if the flavor is appropriate , then I’ll top it off again with some new Irish and leave that in for six months. I’m going to put it all back to age in glass, but will use the small cask to kick start the aging process — maybe.

[Swedish Pride]

Have a 5l barrel I'm very happy with and one that's terrible.

Stave thickness and craftsmanship comes in to play

[Saltbush Bill]

I think you are right SP.
Barrel quality does play a large part, I have had a few smaller barrels in the 5 to 6L range.
Several have held spirit well, the angels were not greedy, a couple of the other small barrels seemed to consistently attract alcoholic angels.
The barrels that held well were not varnished or waxed or treated in any othervway , just small barrels acquired at garage/yard sales, or given to me second hand by friends.
In general I thing 3gal or around 10L is a good starting point for a barrel.
A 10 will also begin to teach you how much work is required to fill a barrel.

[NZChris]

Angel’s Share is a consequence of aging in barrels. I haven’t read anything that convinces me that it is desirable and that speeding it up will age your spirits faster.

If someone knows the science behind any improvement it makes, I’d love to read it.

[PalCabral]

Angel’s Share is a consequence of aging in barrels. I haven’t read anything that convinces me that it is desirable and that speeding it up will age your spirits faster.

If someone knows the science behind any improvement it makes, I’d love to read it.

I'm not under any illusions barrel aging would speed up the process, I don't think anyone is suggesting that. The only reason why I would want to switch from glass jars to barrels is the natural breathing of the barrels. However, if it costs you 30-40% of your product in 6 months to a year, I'm out.

[Swedish Pride]

That's what I loose from my bad one.
Prob about 15% in a year from my good one

[andystanton74]

In my opinion badmotivator barrels is the only way to age small quantities

[Pure Old Possum Piss]

If you want to age it faster with minimal angel share loss, store the barrels in a boat that gets plenty of wave action.
It keeps the whole barrel damp without any part of the barrel drying out. Distilleries have experimented with this and can produce the flavor and complexity of a 3yr old bourbon in under a year. If you could put the barrel on its side with a low speed rotisserie motor that would turn it a few times a day, it might have the simular results.
I can't remember what distillery because it's been about 10 years ago but you can Google ship aged or sea aged whisky.

[Pure Old Possum Piss]

Here's an article on it.
https://whiskyadvocate.com/Cask-Away-Th ... d-Whiskies

[Swedish Pride]

In my opinion badmotivator barrels is the only way to age small quantities

What's your experience with aging in small barrels like?

[andystanton74]

I have 18 badmotivator barrels. The quality is light-years better than any staves in glass. I have done a lot of "aging" in glass and have never been happy with it. I now will only age in badmotivator style barrels. I now make my own.

[Swedish Pride]

I appreciate that you like your badmos, but to proclaim they are the only way if you don't have any experience with actual barrels is an strange one in my book.

[NZChris]

I have 18 badmotivator barrels. The quality is light-years better than any staves in glass. I have done a lot of "aging" in glass and have never been happy with it. I now will only age in badmotivator style barrels. I now make my own.

Stating that "The quality is light-years better than any staves in glass." without elaborating on how you went about it and how long it was aged for, etc., doesn't help much, as there is plenty of poor advice on the net as to how to age in glass and we are left to guess what you might have done and who you might have followed

I have plenty of fine product aging in glass that is well over five years old. E.g., the rum in my glass today has been on wood, in glass, since 2016, and is very nice, and has slowly changed in character over the years, as expected, disappointing for a period of one to three years, then the faults that appeared, disappeared, morphing into nicer flavors. The Angels have stolen bugger all in that time, only what they could sneak out past a loose cork.

[Saltbush Bill]

The Angels have stolen bugger all in that time, only what they could sneak out past a loose cork.

Ive come to the conclusion that if any angels ever did live at Chris place that the poor bastards would have perished years ago.
Can only hope that he loosens the cork up a bit went other visitors arrive.

I appreciate that you like your badmos, but to proclaim they are the only way if you don't have any experience with actual barrels is an strange one in my book.

[
Ive got spirits tucked away in glass with oak that is 6 years+, its good ,but it still cant compete with the same spirit stored in a small barrel for a couple of years. In my opinion it hard to beat a barrel big or small. If there was a better way that was cheaper I'm sure the big distilleries would have been doing it years ago.They spend huge amounts of money on barrels, Im sure they would rather not if that was possible
Ive never owned a BadMo but can only imagine that they are close behind a small barrel in aging terms.
One day I'll buy a BadMo or similar to try.
In the end Climate , Cuts , different taste buds and a heap of other factors contribute to the end result ........its only your own tastes that you need to please.

[NZChris]

LOL, It's not my job to keep them happy, I leave that job to the commercial operators with massive rickhouses.

[andystanton74]

I have 18 badmotivator barrels. The quality is light-years better than any staves in glass. I have done a lot of "aging" in glass and have never been happy with it. I now will only age in badmotivator style barrels. I now make my own.

Stating that "The quality is light-years better than any staves in glass." without elaborating on how you went about it and how long it was aged for, etc., doesn't help much, as there is plenty of poor advice on the net as to how to age in glass and we are left to guess what you might have done and who you might have followed

I have plenty of fine product aging in glass that is well over five years old. E.g., the rum in my glass today has been on wood, in glass, since 2016, and is very nice, and has slowly changed in character over the years, as expected, disappointing for a period of one to three years, then the faults that appeared, disappeared, morphing into nicer flavors. The Angels have stolen bugger all in that time, only what they could sneak out past a loose cork.

I have experimented a lot with staves and glass. I use good oak (from badmotivator) and have played around with different char and toast levels as well as the amount of oak. I think my oldest ones have been around 3 years. I have never found any stave in glass experiments to be anywhere close to a 3 year old badmotivator barrel. That is my experience.

[NZChris]

I have experimented a lot with staves and glass. I use good oak (from badmotivator) and have played around with different char and toast levels as well as the amount of oak. I think my oldest ones have been around 3 years. I have never found any stave in glass experiments to be anywhere close to a 3 year old badmotivator barrel. That is my experience.

How much headspace were you leaving in the jars?

How airtight were the bungs?

[andystanton74]

Usually left a couple inches and left the lids loose.

[NZChris]

Usually left a couple inches and left the lids loose.

I never fill mine to over 2/3 to allow for O2 in the headspace, and the bungs are never so tight that they can't breath. I don't age in glass to be mean to the Angels, and I don't starve the products of oxygen. Most of my glass aged product is well over 3 years old and, going by the progress, I'm sure it will be even better when the baton gets passed. I probably have more product aging in glass than will be drunk by me in my lifetime.

[NZChris]

Another trick I use in glass, mostly for rum, is aging in tropical temperatures. Apparently, rum ages faster in the tropics than Whiskey does in Scotland due to the different regional temperatures, so my rum 'cave', (an old refrigerator), is temperature controlled and never sees NZ winter temperatures.

[andystanton74]

I appreciate that you like your badmos, but to proclaim they are the only way if you don't have any experience with actual barrels is an strange one in my book.

Sorry I didn't mean to shun other ways of aging. It's just that I have found that the product is better out of a badmo barrel compared to glass in my experience. The amount of time and effort it takes to make a small amount of alcohol I want the final product to be as good as it can be and for me that means a badmotivator barrel.

[andystanton74]

Usually left a couple inches and left the lids loose.

I never fill mine to over 2/3 to allow for O2 in the headspace, and the bungs are never so tight that they can't breath. I don't age in glass to be mean to the Angels, and I don't starve the products of oxygen. Most of my glass aged product is well over 3 years old and, going by the progress, I'm sure it will be even better when the baton gets passed. I probably have more product aging in glass than will be drunk by me in my lifetime.

In my opinion the micro oxygenation through the barrels staves cannot be re created in a jar. I think this is a big reason why the product is better out of a barrel in my experience.