Actions to avoid scorching when distilling rye

[PalCabral]

Distillers!

A couple of weeks ago I scorched my boiler's internal heating element when I was stripping the first batch of a high rye formula Bourbon. After some days of trouble-shooting, the reason clearly points to rye protein being the culprit. The recipe contains +30% rye malt and there's about 10% wheat malt in the mix as well, so plenty of proteins in play in this mash. As I follow a classic step-mashing approach using flaked corn and only malts, i.e. no boiling or gelatinization is taking place, and I ferment off grain, solids are the not the issue in this case. Nor have I had problems with stuck sparges or overly viscous mashes/washes.

I've put together a number of mitigating actions that one can take in order to avoid this problem repeating itself. I would like your feedback on those, if you think they will have any effects or not, and if there are other mitigating steps that can be taken. Buying/Building new distilling equipment, however, is not really on the table.

Mashing:
- Lower target SG: 1.050-1.065, instead of 1.070-1.080
- 30 minutes beta-glucanase rest at 43C/109F
- 15 minutes protein rest at 50C/122F
- 30 minutes vigorous boiling after saccharification rest 67C/152F to create Hot Break to coagulate proteins and polyphenols
- Application of Irish Moss or Protafloc in the above boil to aid hot break

Enzymes:
Here I could need some help. Alpha amylase, beta-glucanase and glucoamylase are in my understanding mainly helpful to increase conversion of starch to sugar and to improve liquification of the mash, I am not sure if they have any major impact on breaking down proteins in it. Protease is the enzyme that breaks down proteins but there are not that many products available for hobby brewers/distillers. Any tips would be greatly appreciated.

Fermentation:
- After completed fermentation, wash is cold-crashed followed by clarification by application of Isinglass or other fining agent
- Careful racking of wash to boiler as to not bring any of the bottom sludge over from the fermenter

Stripping run distillation:
- Start heat up immediately after filling boiler as to not allow any settlement at the bottom of the boiler
- Heat up slowly, 30%-60% of element capacity (1300w-1700w in my case) and run at max 75% capacity during stripping run
- Agitate wash during heat up as long as it is possible
- Use the higher of two element ports in boiler (in my case the lower element is 2 inches from the bottom, the higher element is 4 inches from the bottom) - not sure if this will make difference.
- Add boiling stones/shards to bottom of the boiler - not sure if this at all makes sense since I use an internal element.

As I said, appreciate your comments and thoughts.

[Homebrewer11777]

Sounds ok to me.

You may not actually need enzymes but I would add some form of beta glucoamylase after the boil when you are chilling the wort. After boiling chill you wort to about 135-140F (57-60C) and add the enzyme. Let it cool naturally from there for about an hour and then finish chilling to pitching temperature.

Don't forget to oxygenate this wort just like if you were making beer.

I like the irish moss idea since you are planning to boil. May want to check pH of the boil to make sure it is in range of 5.0 to 5.2 or maybe 5.3. Below 5 is really not good for coagulation of the proteins you are trying to achieve.

You did not mention yeast choice. Maybe something that flocs well.

I'd pass on Isinglass or other post fermentation clarifying agents but would cold crash it.

I think once you have a boil and you are past the puking stage (not long since you boiled pre-fermentation) you should have enough movement in the boiler to not have to worry about the element anymore. Go ahead and go fast.

Oh also make sure to take a look at the element before the batch. Mine tend to build up a bit of film over a few batches and that may make them sticky. Give it a good clean before the batch.

[PalCabral]

Sounds ok to me.

You may not actually need enzymes but I would add some form of beta glucoamylase after the boil when you are chilling the wort. After boiling chill you wort to about 135-140F (57-60C) and add the enzyme. Let it cool naturally from there for about an hour and then finish chilling to pitching temperature.

Don't forget to oxygenate this wort just like if you were making beer.

I like the irish moss idea since you are planning to boil. May want to check pH of the boil to make sure it is in range of 5.0 to 5.2 or maybe 5.3. Below 5 is really not good for coagulation of the proteins you are trying to achieve.

You did not mention yeast choice. Maybe something that flocs well.

I'd pass on Isinglass or other post fermentation clarifying agents but would cold crash it.

I think once you have a boil and you are past the puking stage (not long since you boiled pre-fermentation) you should have enough movement in the boiler to not have to worry about the element anymore. Go ahead and go fast.

Oh also make sure to take a look at the element before the batch. Mine tend to build up a bit of film over a few batches and that may make them sticky. Give it a good clean before the batch.

Thanks for the excellent feedback. Do you have a suggestion for the beta-glucoamylase? I am using Still Spirits glucoamylase today but I take it you think it should be a mix of glucoamylase and beta-amylase?

I usually cold crash and use finings for some of the beers I've made, was thinking of the same this time. The yeast I am using is Fermentis USW-6 - not really a high flocculant yeast, distiller's yeasts rarely are. I'll give this one a thought. I could change for Voss kveik, which is reliable and highly floccing. Good point, didn't think of that.

I have just finished cleaning the old element, it was an ordeal. I doubt it will ever be as clean as this. But I never thought about the element getting coated with stuff. After each run I flush it clean and every so often I'll give it a brush too. From the brewing days I am something of a nut when it comes to clean my equipment. Dont want no weird bacteria in my brewery Thanks!

[Homebrewer11777]

actually I think I use glucoamylase too. The product I use is "GLUCOAMYLASE AMYLASE ENZYME DIAZYME X4 AGGRESSIVE LIQUID" from Amazon. It is also labeled "Glucan 1,4-α-glucosidase" on the bottle.

I really don't understand difference between beta glucanase and glucoamylase but I can vouch for glucoamylase working if added below its denaturing temperature.

I don't really think a little bit of yeast in suspension is what burned on your burner. It was slime from the rye. I think a good cold crash should be fine for settling out that whiskey yeast although I'm currently using S04 which I've always found to be super flocculant.

[higgins]

I'm having trouble understanding why your 30% malted rye scorched, but my 100% flaked unmalted rye did not.

I have a 15.5 keg with a 5500W element that is bent into a circle about 1" from the outer edge of the keg. I need 2.75 gallons to cover it.
I always use about 15-20 pieces of 1/2" D x 1 1/2" L copper pipe in the boiler, and I can hear them dancing around when boiling. I usually heat up at full power to about 160F / 71C before tapering down to about 15-10% thru the foaming stage, then back up to 100% in 10-15% increments as foaming recedes.

But I did use YLAY.

[PalCabral]

actually I think I use glucoamylase too. The product I use is "GLUCOAMYLASE AMYLASE ENZYME DIAZYME X4 AGGRESSIVE LIQUID" from Amazon. It is also labeled "Glucan 1,4-α-glucosidase" on the bottle.

I really don't understand difference between beta glucanase and glucoamylase but I can vouch for glucoamylase working if added below its denaturing temperature.

Thanks, HB! I will test this product.

[PalCabral]

I'm having trouble understanding why your 30% malted rye scorched, but my 100% flaked unmalted rye did not.

I have a 15.5 keg with a 5500W element that is bent into a circle about 1" from the outer edge of the keg. I need 2.75 gallons to cover it.
I always use about 15-20 pieces of 1/2" D x 1 1/2" L copper pipe in the boiler, and I can hear them dancing around when boiling. I usually heat up at full power to about 160F / 71C before tapering down to about 15-10% thru the foaming stage, then back up to 100% in 10-15% increments as foaming recedes.

But I did use YLAY.

Yes, I agree it is strange. The difference could be what your copper scrap do. My element is straight and was scorched the most in the part to the center of the boiler, wheras the part nearest the side and port was hardly scorched at all, indicating that the scorching started in the middle. My 13g boiler is 13 inches wide, your 15.5g boiler couldnt really be much wider, could it?

The existence of proteins in the wash is down to raw material and process. You use flakes, I am using malt. Even though YLAY does not seem to have protease in it’s cocktail it is possible it has a positive effect breaking proteins down? Beta-glucanase in YL may be the differenting factor in this aspect. My beta-glucanase rest before was only 15 minutes, perhaps not long enough?

[PalCabral]

I really don't understand difference between beta glucanase and glucoamylase but I can vouch for glucoamylase working if added below its denaturing temperature.

”The β-amylase breaks off shorter chains of sugars to increase fermentation yield. β-glucanase: Glucans are polysaccharides made of glucose and this enzyme focuses specifically on breaking down the links between these molecules with the addition of water”.

It’s confusing. I realized I called it beta-amylase in my original post when I meant to call it beta-glucanase.

[PalCabral]

I really don't understand difference between beta glucanase and glucoamylase but I can vouch for glucoamylase working if added below its denaturing temperature.

”The β-amylase breaks off shorter chains of sugars to increase fermentation yield. β-glucanase: Glucans are polysaccharides made of glucose and this enzyme focuses specifically on breaking down the links between these molecules with the addition of water”.

It’s confusing. I realized I called it beta-amylase in my original post when I meant to call it beta-glucanase. Beta amylase and glucoamylase is as far as I understand the same thing. Beta-glucanase is not.

[higgins]

Here is my DENORD 5500 ULWD element that I bent into a semi-circle.
CAUTION: I've read that some elements have glass in them and bending them might render them useless.



I think it distributes the heat more evenly around the kettle.

The item at the bottom of the picture is my drain port with an SS elbow facing down.

[jonnys_spirit]

YLAY may have some protease in it. Koji has a mix of amylase and protease and can be cultivated with higher percentage of either depending on what you want to use it for.

Cheers,
jonny

[PalCabral]

Here is my DENORD 5500 ULWD element that I bent into a semi-circle.
CAUTION: I've read that some elements have glass in them and bending them might render them useless.

I think it distributes the heat more evenly around the kettle.

The item at the bottom of the picture is my drain port with an SS elbow facing down.

I know the type. How dis you manage to bend it? You applied heat or did you jump into a phone booth and switch to your Superman suit? Love it!

[PalCabral]

YLAY may have some protease in it. Koji has a mix of amylase and protease and can be cultivated with higher percentage of either depending on what you want to use it for.

Cheers,
jonny

Not really faniliar with Koji. I know it’s used when brewing Sake and I’ve seen sachets of it in my LHBS, expensive sachets. Do you use it for Sake or completely other beverages, Jonny?

[higgins]

...
I know the type. How dis you manage to bend it? You applied heat or did you jump into a phone booth and switch to your Superman suit? Love it!

No heat. They are rather soft - I just bent it with my hands on a bench top. It does take some force, but I bent the foldback out, then for each outside curve place down on the edge of the bench top like this: U, but shallower. Grab the straight parts of the U and spread apart and push down to straighten it out. Repeat for all the curved parts. You can see it is nowhere near perfect, but it works well.

[shadylane]

- Use the higher of two element ports in boiler (in my case the lower element is 2 inches from the bottom, the higher element is 4 inches from the bottom) - not sure if this will make difference.

Maybe use both elements and split the power between them.
This would cut the watt density of the heaters in half and lower the odds of a scorch.

[jonnys_spirit]

YLAY may have some protease in it. Koji has a mix of amylase and protease and can be cultivated with higher percentage of either depending on what you want to use it for.

Cheers,
jonny

Not really faniliar with Koji. I know it’s used when brewing Sake and I’ve seen sachets of it in my LHBS, expensive sachets. Do you use it for Sake or completely other beverages, Jonny?

Koji is a cultivated mold which contains enzymes (protease and amylase) - similar to the active ingredient (also a fungus) in YLAY which is called rhizopus oryzae.

Koji can be used to convert starches into sugars (eg; rice -> sake) just like YLAY as well as in protein based ferments (eg; miso or shoyu) where proteins are broken down into simpler aminos.

I’m suggesting that perhaps YLAY does contain some protease which may account for the observed behavior earlier in the thread when stripping rye fermented with YLAY but would need further research to confirm.

Cheers,
-jonny

[PalCabral]

Yesterday I ran the same recipe again after my scorching event. Slow. 3 1/2 hours at 50% to get 3L of low wines. There was no scorching but the smell is still there. It’s spicy and acrid but I’m not sure it’s in the flavor of the low wines. I blew my palate yesterday so I wasnt in the condition to really tell and we were celebrating Norway’s national day yesterday afternoon with my parents so I cut it off halfways. Plan is to resume stripping today.

Emptied the boiler to check on the element and it looked alright - see pics (nevermind, pics dont work). It was colored in fat but had no marks of burns besides what was there already. Cleaned it up and it looks ready for another round.

Could I be mistaking the spicy, acrid, smell with the smell from rye? The smell, odor, from the scorching event is still in my nostrils and damned if I trust my own senses these days. Maybe I am super sensitive now and spooking myself? I know the smell from the still when it’s producing, once you felt it, you’ll remember it. This smells different…

[PalCabral]

Ran the second part of the stripping run today. The charge was only at 2%abv after yesterdays run so it was low proof low wines collected - 3L at 10% abv.

But the low wines smell ass. It’s the scorched smell again, and as the low wines from this run is practically only water the flavor of the low wines are clearly affected. 4 hours of slow running to get 3L of ass. From a perfectly good 25L wash I end up with 3L of something I hope I can use.

It must be the element that still emits the ass smell. I am replacing it now. I cant have it contaminate everything I make. I’ve got a new element to wire and then I’ll be doing a full cleaning cycle. PBW, vinegar run, water run and a sac run. There is nothing I will not do to exterminate this smell and flavor.

[PalCabral]

It puzzles me this. The stripping run this weekend was a success in that there was no scorching. I ran slow and the first half of the product, from Saturday, was fine. But the acrid smell gradually grew the entire time. It was present on Saturday and became really noticable on Sunday. Also the product from the Sunday run was contaminated. I compared with the product from the scorching run two weeks ago and they are pretty much the same, totally contaminated but the acrid smell and taste. The Saturday's product is not contaminated, however.

Since the scorching happened and this weekend's runs I have vinegar and water run the rig. All components that were involved. The only part that had signs of the scorching was the element. And it showed no new signs of scorching after this weekend's runs, and it doesn't have the smell of the acrid stuff. The mash smelled and tasted fine before the run and the backset had no strange odors after. None of the components in the rig had the smell - I gave everything a soap wash after, checking every single piece of tubery in the set up. Nothing smelled funky. WTF?

The acrid smell slowly grew during the run. Non-existing in the first part of the run, then gradually growing. It never grew to the proportions of two weeks ago, but it was clearly there when I was distilling down from 30% abv to 10% abv during the stripping. The taste of it also contaminated this part of the low wines.

Is it reflux related? There's loads of proteins in this wash, there's no escaping of that, but the slow run would have prevented scorching against the element. The onion head adds a lot of passive reflux and I am guessing proteins are heavier in "molecular weight" (if such a thing exist) and will be refluxed back into the boiler. As the distillation continues their total would be concentrated by the evaporation of lighter substances. This could also be true if scorching fragments from the element was released with the high temperature in the boiler during distillation. None of these "graspings for air" explain why the smell and taste is acrid, however.

I have one more wash to stripp from same recipe. Between then and now, I will switch element to a brand new one, to remove this possible culprit. I will do a full cleaning session with the rig, vinegar, steam and sacrificial, the works. I will even run a totally different stripping run for a sugar head I have had sitting around, just to see if the acrid smell returns. Then I'll run last wash with exactly the same configuration as this weekend. If the smell is back then, well then I don't know what to do.

[Yummyrum]

Sounds like a good plan of attack Pal.
If after new element , cleaning and a sugar wash , if the sugar wash is OK but the original isn’t , had to be something with that .
Maybe Rye is not for you. Maybe time to look at steam stripping .

Getting back to your last strip over two days , maybe the settling overnight caused a buildup on the element that made the Sunday continuation scorch again .

[OtisT]

Maybe time to look at steam stripping .

+1

[PalCabral]

Getting back to your last strip over two days , maybe the settling overnight caused a buildup on the element that made the Sunday continuation scorch again .

Oh, I stirred, boy did I stirr. The 1 hour and 15 minutes the wash took to heat up I was there stirring the boiler, until I had to cap it. And there really wasn't any scorch in this run, nothing visible at least. Just the smell and the taste. In fact, the element looked cleaner now than before (which probably is the indication the little remains that were still on it was released during the stripping run, ruining my low wines?).

Maybe Rye is not for you.

LOL !!!

Well I have certainly thought so myself. Then I have also thought my LHBS sold me ass rye by mistake.

Maybe time to look at steam stripping .

That's a big fat no. When I upgrade my rig, it will not be for this reason. I have, between you and me, looked at some of the designs of steaming rigs. It's not sexy. I might as well buy already stripped rye whiskey from a local distillery then. If Bulleit can buy their Rye, so can I.

[shadylane]

I have, between you and me, looked at some of the designs of steaming rigs. It's not sexy.

There's a reason most folks have given up on trying distill a mash with internal elements.
Do you want success that's easy, or copper porn that's difficult.

[PalCabral]

There's a reason most folks have given up on trying distill a mash with internal elements.
Do you want success that's easy, or copper porn that's difficult.

There's nothing easy with building a steam rig. I checked out Higgins thread... I admire the patience and engineering in you guys. That's not me, though. Nor am I actually into copper porn either - functional and good is my lead stars. And, most importantly, there is a significant other involved who is getting more and more intrigued about the recent influx of "shit" that we somehow can afford... You don't fool around with Portuguese ladies, Shady. They will whack you! I treasure my life. And I want to live long enough to be able to taste what I make...

[OtisT]

There's a reason most folks have given up on trying distill a mash with internal elements.
Do you want success that's easy, or copper porn that's difficult.

There's nothing easy with building a steam rig. I checked out Higgins thread... I admire the patience and engineering in you guys. That's not me, though. Nor am I actually into copper porn either - functional and good is my lead stars. And, most importantly, there is a significant other involved who is getting more and more intrigued about the recent influx of "shit" that we somehow can afford... You don't fool around with Portuguese ladies, Shady. They will whack you! I treasure my life. And I want to live long enough to be able to taste what I make...

I’m not trying to change your mind, but building a steam stripping rig does not need to be complex. It’s as simple as adding a large volume thumper to a pot still setup. It’s no more work than that.

[shadylane]

Actions to avoid scorching when distilling rye.

Don't use an internal element, unless your really good at squeezing, settling and racking the fermented mash.
If you have two elements, use both at reduced power.
Use enzymes so there's no starches and unfermentable sugars to burn on the elements.

[PalCabral]

I’m not trying to change your mind, but building a steam stripping rig does not need to be complex. It’s as simple as adding a large volume thumper to a pot still setup. It’s no more work than that.

I understand, Otis, and I appreciate your suggestion. For me it's not really an option atm. My brewery/distillery isn't really big enough and considering my scale of operations it's overkill. I need to modify my MO to handle the issues with scorching. Maybe this is an upgrade for the future but rather than getting into upgrading I need to get my sea legs straight first. I will need to work around these issues.

[PalCabral]

Actions to avoid scorching when distilling rye.

Don't use an internal element, unless your really good at squeezing, settling and racking the fermented mash.
If you have two elements, use both at reduced power.
Use enzymes so there's no starches and unfermentable sugars to burn on the elements.

There you go, Shady - put it up as a sticky for new distillers! "Things I wished I knew before I scorched my element and ruined 50L of perfectly good Bourbon wash."

Seriously, I think I am on my way on reducing the protein levels and avoiding scorching, by the change of process and use of enzymes. Last weekend's mishap is most likely caused by remains from the scorching two weeks ago. If it isn't... It is a hard learning curve. My fallback plan is YLAY.

[shadylane]

I don't think proteins are the problem, the enzymes in the malt are made of protein.
More likely it's longer chains of sugar and starch aka Polysaccharides that didn't get converted during mashing.

[PalCabral]

I had a higher efficiency in the last mashings than in any of my previous, hit 84%. For my wheated Bourbon, which had 29% wheat malt, my efficiency was nearly 20% lower and I had not issues with scorching even though the amount of unconverted starch would have been much bigger. And I am using glucoamylase in my mashing, during the cool down. My ferments go down to 1.000, so all the sugar that was available for fermentation was made into ethanol by my friend Saccharomyces. Not saying you are wrong, Shady, just that there's no data that explains why scorching happened in one stripping run and not in all the others.

The next batch is in the beer fridge now, cold crashing. Tomorrow I'll mix in a bit of isinglass to get as much fallout as possible. Then I'll rack the wash off the yeast into a cleaned bucket. I just finished a vinegar run with my new element. Later tonight I'll do a water run just to tidy things up a bit. On Thursday I'll run a sacrificial to seal the cleaning off. My aim to run a stripping run of another wash on Friday and then stripp the rye Bourbon on Saturday.