Actions to avoid scorching when distilling rye

[jonnys_spirit]

I haven't done a high rye mash yet but I want to. All i've read around here leans towards steam stripping the rye. I've done a ton of bourbon mashes that I typically squeeze and clear with very few scorches. The few scorches I had were when I didn't clear as much as I should have but still very minimal.

I'll plumb the thumper at some point for a high rye. I won't try it on the element due to the number of folks that experience issues with it and I feel like it's generally not recommended to run rye on an element.

I have used smaller percentages of rye malt in other bourbon mashes (probably 5-10%) without any issue whatsoever.

Cheers,
jonny

[Swedish Pride]

I've used up to 1/3 rye without scorching, ferment on grain, pump from fermenter to boiler and let it rip.
Internal 4500w fold back element.

Next mash is going to be over 50% rye.
I'll let yous know if it scorchers

[PalCabral]

I’m not trying to change your mind, but building a steam stripping rig does not need to be complex. It’s as simple as adding a large volume thumper to a pot still setup. It’s no more work than that.

Otis, say that I was a little bit interested to evaluate steam stripping rig. The idea of a thumper type of vessel could potentially work. But will the steam pipe going into the thumper/vessel with the wash to be stripped be just as hot and likely to scorch as the element?

[jonnys_spirit]

I’m not trying to change your mind, but building a steam stripping rig does not need to be complex. It’s as simple as adding a large volume thumper to a pot still setup. It’s no more work than that.

Otis, say that I was a little bit interested to evaluate steam stripping rig. The idea of a thumper type of vessel could potentially work. But will the steam pipe going into the thumper/vessel with the wash to be stripped be just as hot and likely to scorch as the element?

That vapor path pipe will get up to vapor temp or 212*F if you're boiling water. Turning your element power up increases the amount of vapor (more power = more vigorous boil = more vapor produced = more heat exchange) but the max temp is limited by the liquid that is being boiled.

Cheers,
jonny

[PalCabral]

That vapor path pipe will get up to vapor temp or 212*F if you're boiling water. Turning your element power up increases the amount of vapor (more power = more vigorous boil = more vapor produced = more heat exchange) but the max temp is limited by the liquid that is being boiled.

Cheers,
jonny

Thanks for clarifying, Jonny!

It dawned for me that I have two 50L boilers, albeit one with a leakage, which I could use for this. I’ve got spiols/tubes and elbows, all I need is the downer tube and fittings.

Maybe I should study how steam stripping actually works?

[jonnys_spirit]

That vapor path pipe will get up to vapor temp or 212*F if you're boiling water. Turning your element power up increases the amount of vapor (more power = more vigorous boil = more vapor produced = more heat exchange) but the max temp is limited by the liquid that is being boiled.

Cheers,
jonny

Thanks for clarifying, Jonny!

It dawned for me that I have two 50L boilers, albeit one with a leakage, which I could use for this. I’ve got spiols/tubes and elbows, all I need is the downer tube and fittings.

Maybe I should study how steam stripping actually works?

It's recommended to have an atmosphere valve in line with the thumper tube such that when you open the valve, the path is opened to the atmosphere. This is used when you turn the power off to prevent a vacuum as the boiler cools that will crush the boiler. When the boiler is producing steam, the atmosphere valve is closed and steam/vapor is sent into the thump. Careful with that valve because when you open it there may be some pressure and hot vapor coming out until the boiler starts to cool off.

Cheers,
j

[Bolverk]

I'm glad someone said it... running heavy rye mashes with electric just doesn't work.. sure there are a few way you can do it but as a general rule steam injection or bane marie are really the best way.

[OtisT]

I'm glad someone said it... running heavy rye mashes with electric just doesn't work.. sure there are a few way you can do it but as a general rule steam injection or bane marie are really the best way.

Amen brother. I’m past my experimental phase and doing 20 batches a year. I only do a few AG runs a year now and I’ll be damned if I’m going to risk wasting a months work (again) due to a scorch.

[taylor-madeak]

My experience might be able to help in some small way here:

As mentioned before, koji can produce protease enzymes that might be useful for a brewer looking to degrade proteins in the mash. It is, after all, used to break down soybeans in the production of both miso and soy sauce. I do sympathize with not wanting to go overboard on cognitive load by trying to learn how to produce koji just for this experiment, though, which is why I would like to offer this advice:

Depending on where you live, Cold Mountain Koji might be a viable option for your experiment. It's produced specifically for making miso paste, which means it is incubated under conditions that favor producing proteolytic power over diastatic power.

I usually buy this stuff rather than make my own koji when I make sake, so I'm pretty familiar with it.

[PalCabral]

My experience might be able to help in some small way here:

As mentioned before, koji can produce protease enzymes that might be useful for a brewer looking to degrade proteins in the mash. It is, after all, used to break down soybeans in the production of both miso and soy sauce. I do sympathize with not wanting to go overboard on cognitive load by trying to learn how to produce koji just for this experiment, though, which is why I would like to offer this advice:

Depending on where you live, Cold Mountain Koji might be a viable option for your experiment. It's produced specifically for making miso paste, which means it is incubated under conditions that favor producing proteolytic power over diastatic power.

I usually buy this stuff rather than make my own koji when I make sake, so I'm pretty familiar with it.

Thanks for the tip, Taylor. It's funny, half a year ago I hadn't even heard of koji, neither protease or beta-glucans. Steep learning curve. I will check if my local asian supermarket has it, otherwise I'll see if it can be ordered.

[taylor-madeak]

I will check if my local asian supermarket has it, otherwise I'll see if it can be ordered.

I was able to find Japanese-origin dried rice koji on Amazon pretty easily, I just didn't share a link because I didn't want to risk being perceived as trying to advertise something.

This is an interesting discussion to me because I love rye enough to have made that my first attempt at whiskey, using a modified version of the popular GW recipe:

60% malted rye (because that's what my LHBS sells)
35% flaked maize
5% 6-row

The mash profile was:

beta-glucan rest: 60 min at 110°F
conversion rest: 60 min at 145°F
batch sparge

I had much the same observation as you: there is a lot of albumin in this wash that makes it through to the still because it wasn't precipitated before fermentation. It's not much of a problem for the T500 boiler beyond being something of a puke hazard, which I solved by simply running at a lower power. I can definitely see the potential for it becoming a scorch hazard for immersed elements, though.

Based on my experience, I could be talked into modifying my recipe to use koji in place of 6-row the next time I make some rye. You know, for science.

[Swedish Pride]

I stripped my 50+% rye this weekend, no scorching.
I have a 4kw fold back element that I ran at maybe ⅔ the power throughout the whole run.

[PalCabral]

I stripped my 50+% rye this weekend, no scorching.
I have a 4kw fold back element that I ran at maybe ⅔ the power throughout the whole run.

Do you use enzymes or are you taking any particular actions during mashing and fermentation to avoid problems with scorching, SP?

[Swedish Pride]

I always use enzymes because I'm shit at mashing.
Just alpha and gluco though, not the one that's good for unsliming rye (beta?)

Other than that just low heat the full run

[PalCabral]

I think it distributes the heat more evenly around the kettle.

The item at the bottom of the picture is my drain port with an SS elbow facing down.

I just realized, how do you get the element out of the boiler? Yes. I guess you must have gotten it in, but it seems a beech, Higgins?

[Swedish Pride]

I've used up to 1/3 rye without scorching, ferment on grain, pump from fermenter to boiler and let it rip.
Internal 4500w fold back element.

Next mash is going to be over 50% rye.
I'll let yous know if it scorchers

Well, I've stripped 3 high rye mashes over the last month or so, all ran slow, at about 60 % power I put on my 4500w element.
So scotch, element looks brand new.
So running it slow is a viable option

[Saltbush Bill]

The joys of experience SP

[Yummyrum]

Just a thought , but do the surface coatings on different brand elements make any difference

[higgins]

I think it distributes the heat more evenly around the kettle.

The item at the bottom of the picture is my drain port with an SS elbow facing down.

I just realized, how do you get the element out of the boiler? Yes. I guess you must have gotten it in, but it seems a beech, Higgins?

Very easy - it takes no longer than 10 seconds.
Grab the plug end and pull it out a few inches, while tilting the plug end down and rotating the terminal end up. Then it just snakes right out. But it doesn't work on my 7.75 gal quarter keg because the keg doesn't have enough internal height to rotate the element.

[PalCabral]

I've used up to 1/3 rye without scorching, ferment on grain, pump from fermenter to boiler and let it rip.
Internal 4500w fold back element.

Next mash is going to be over 50% rye.
I'll let yous know if it scorchers

Well, I've stripped 3 high rye mashes over the last month or so, all ran slow, at about 60 % power I put on my 4500w element.
So scotch, element looks brand new.
So running it slow is a viable option

Do you use any enzymes or some sort of process when you mash your rye mashes, SP, to clear the wash or similar?

Just a thought , but do the surface coatings on different brand elements make any difference

This was something I was contemplating too. Since I scorched the elements have been cleaned thoroughly, acids, PBW, alkaline, vinegar, steam and sac runs. Still, even in a normal shine mash I detect the burnt after running halfways through a run. After that point the smell and the flavor of burnt grows, making the product, whatever it is, garbage. The elements were sold as low density 3KW elements - I was thinking that whatever they were coated with may have been impacted, thus being prone to scorch easier? When I look at the elements after said runs, though, they look clean.

[Swedish Pride]

I use the normal alpha and gluco from here.
https://destylacja.com/pl/c/Enzymy/71
they also have beta that I don't use but I believe in it should help with rye slime.
I've been getting enzymes from there for years, it's a bit cumbersome to translate to English but most browsers do it for you there days.
I think it's about 15-20€ deliverd for enough enzymes to do 300kg of grain

[PalCabral]

I use the normal alpha and gluco from here.
https://destylacja.com/pl/c/Enzymy/71
they also have beta that I don't use but I believe in it should help with rye slime.
I've been getting enzymes from there for years, it's a bit cumbersome to translate to English but most browsers do it for you there days.
I think it's about 15-20€ deliverd for enough enzymes to do 300kg of grain

Great link, SP. Poland is only a boat ride away - can easily make a short vacation trip there - love the country. My Polish is a bit crappy, however

[Pure Old Possum Piss]

Sebflo TL usually helps break down the slime monster.
Still want to step mash though.

[Swedish Pride]

Well, 100% scorched within 5 min of power on, even though the i only used ⅔ of the 4500w available.

Not as fun of a first as going with a lady the first time but a first none the less.

[Swedish Pride]

Well, 100% rye scorched within 5 min of power on, even though the i only used ⅔ of the 4500w available.


Not as fun of a first as going with a lady the first time but a first none the less.

[Bolverk]

I'm not trying to be a dick here guys but this effort to distill high rye on electric just doesn't work... its been tried countless times on here and only a handful of people have pulled it off and even they dont have 100% success rates.

Please look into steam, a simple pot and thumper where the boiler is filled with water and your grain in beer is in the thumper will work very well for stripping. Hell you can even go all out and build a steam gen like I and many others have done.

[PalCabral]

Well, 100% scorched within 5 min of power on, even though the i only used ⅔ of the 4500w available.

Not as fun of a first as going with a lady the first time but a first none the less.

- Sorry to hear it, SP. The smell of it is haunting... And I just ordered beta-glucan from Destylacja.

I've been so close to start buying more elbows, fittings and tubings for a steam rig, but I realized I need to rearrange the space in my distillery to fit two boilers. That turned out to be a bigger project, involving the Chief Executive in the household, as stuff not part of the distillery need to go. There was some disagreement about it and the urgency for it. So I am postponing my Rye projects for this year until I can make the necessary space needed.

[Swedish Pride]

I'm not trying to be a dick here guys but this effort to distill high rye on electric just doesn't work... its been tried countless times on here and only a handful of people have pulled it off and even they dont have 100% success rates.

Please look into steam, a simple pot and thumper where the boiler is filled with water and your grain in beer is in the thumper will work very well for stripping. Hell you can even go all out and build a steam gen like I and many others have done.

Always wanted a thumper, finally made one a few months back.
Unfortunately it's to loud for me to run in suburbia, to many nosey neighbours here.

I'll probably not do an all rye again.

As for this batch, I'm hoping watering it down and turn the power down even more will help it not to scorch.

[Swedish Pride]

Well, 100% scorched within 5 min of power on, even though the i only used ⅔ of the 4500w available.

Not as fun of a first as going with a lady the first time but a first none the less.

- Sorry to hear it, SP. The smell of it is haunting... And I just ordered beta-glucan from Destylacja.

I've been so close to start buying more elbows, fittings and tubings for a steam rig, but I realized I need to rearrange the space in my distillery to fit two boilers. That turned out to be a bigger project, involving the Chief Executive in the household, as stuff not part of the distillery need to go. There was some disagreement about it and the urgency for it. So I am postponing my Rye projects for this year until I can make the necessary space needed.

Hope the enzymes work out well for you PC

[Bolverk]

Always wanted a thumper, finally made one a few months back.
Unfortunately it's to loud for me to run in suburbia, to many nosey neighbours here.

I'll probably not do an all rye again.

As for this batch, I'm hoping watering it down and turn the power down even more will help it not to scorch.

If the thumper is too loud steam cooker will basically be the same. Short of building a steam stripping column or giving up on ryes im out of ideas