Mashing in a Rye

[The Booze Pipe]

Mash in day tomorrow! Using a modified Large Batch method to mash in 100 pounds of grains. My big hang-up here is that there are no good mash calculators for home distillers, that I am aware of!

recipe is 50% malted rye, 35% flaked rye, 10% malted barley, 5% corn (because I have it on hand). I'll dough-in the malted rye and pre-gelled corn with 168f water.

But the hang up is the second addition of water and what temp it should be. According to my methods, I've come up with 190f for the second addition of water and the remaining grain. Seems high to me so I could use a bit of feedback here. Closure to 170 would seem more reasonable. You all-grain beer brewers let me know!

[PalCabral]

Have you tried Brewer's Friend. It's not a distiller's calc but for beer.

[Bolverk]

Have you tried Brewer's Friend. It's not a distiller's calc but for beer.

Someone posted a water temp calculator here somewhere i just dont remember what thread its on.

You gel corn at 190f just add enough cold water to get down to about 165-170f add your rye. It should be be about 10% of your mash volume... but thats going to depend on your mash temp and volume after the rest.

[The Booze Pipe]

I got it all figured out! I have looked through Brewers Friend and it doesn't translate well for my setup, or I'm not using it right. I'll post up my recipe and procedure when I'm done.

[Windy City]

Rye can be a real slimy bitch!!
I always do a long protein rest and use ViscoSeb which real tames the slime and makes for easier day.
This is a good link for dealing with rye.
viewtopic.php?t=84306

[The Booze Pipe]

So far its going well! It's very thick. I overshot on the grain amount at 2.2 pounds per gallon. I had an idea that would happen. It's my first rye bill, I'll refine for the next one (next year). I'll probably end up adding more corn.

I'm coming up on two hours into the sacc. It's dropped from 143 to 140.

[subbrew]

Here is what I use. It is not perfect has been close enough when my final product is to have a 2.2 lb/gal grain to water ratio.

V1 = volume of water already in container
T1 = temperature of grain/water in container
V2 = volume of water to add
T2 = temperature of water to add
TT = target temperature

T2= ((V1 + V2)(TT) - V1(T1))/V2

This totally disregards the weight of the grain. To make up for that I add 15% of the temp difference.

So if I started at 150 and want to hit 140. And the calculation shows my water addition needs to be 100. So the temperature difference is 50 degrees. 15% of 50 is 7.5 so round to 8. Because I am trying to lower temp I would subtract the 8 from 100 and get a target temp of 92 for my water addition.

[The Booze Pipe]

Rye can be a real slimy bitch!!
I always do a long protein rest and use ViscoSeb which real tames the slime and makes for easier day.
This is a good link for dealing with rye.
viewtopic.php?t=84306

Looks like there are two enzymes from Enzyme Inovation. SEBFlo TL Beta Glucanase and ViscoSEB L Hemicellulase Blend. I only see the ViscoSEB for sale in a samller amount from Moonshine Distiller.

I can't find much info on it. At what temp do you add it to the mash? At this point I'm really wondering if it will work post saccharification, during fermentation??

[Windy City]

This is the data sheet.
I don't believe it will work in the fermentation stage.
It needs to be done at protein rest temperature before you bring it up to saccrification temperature

image.png

[The Booze Pipe]

This is the data sheet.
I don't believe it will work in the fermentation stage.
It needs to be done at protein rest temperature before you bring it up to saccrification temperature


image.png

optimum temp is 104 to 149. So it could work on the lower end of the sacc rest. The temp I hit was 143, so it would have been a perfect time to add this enzyme. I'll have it on hand the next time I do a high rye.

[The Booze Pipe]

This rye whiskey:
50 lbs malted rye
35 lbs flaked rye
10 lbs Two Row
5 lbs cornmeal
(50%, 35%, 10%, 5% respectively)
100 grams gypsum, 15grams DAP, 8 grams magnesium sulfate, 60ml RedStar DADY (75-100 grams? I can't remember the weight).

Mash-in #1: 25 gallons water @ 165f dough-in the malted rye, pre-gelled corn, & gypsum, let mash for 90 minutes at 153f.

Mash-in #2: 15 gallons @ 160 dough-in the remainder rye & barley at 143f for 120 minutes. For sure would add ViscoSEB at this time/temp. It turned good and sweet. Cooled to 90f and pitched re-hydrated yeast with nutrients.

I could only fit 40 gallons of water into the tun at 2.2 pounds/gallon. I'll lower that ratio next time to 2lbs/gal. OG came in high at 1.078, ph around 5.2. It's a slow start but bubbling away, smells like rye but funky. It's also very thick and sticky.

It takes me forever to chill down a 50 gallon ferment, using a 3/8" copper coil sized for a five or ten gallon ferment. I would love to hear how other folks are cooling there mashes down. I don't like it sitting overnight as it tends to introduce "other" things.

[The Booze Pipe]

at 10 days it stalled out at 1.012. I pitched a couple fist fulls of the Stuff for a second fermentation. Its working away furiously again!

[The Booze Pipe]

This finished out what I think was dry, but the hydro read 1.010 so 9-10% got it all stripped to 10 gallons of low-wines. No foaming issues at any point wit this rye mash and strip.

[shadylane]

It takes me forever to chill down a 50 gallon ferment, using a 3/8" copper coil sized for a five or ten gallon ferment. I would love to hear how other folks are cooling there mashes down. I don't like it sitting overnight as it tends to introduce "other" things.

Stirring greatly increases the heat transfer. You can feel the change in the water temp coming out the wort chiller.
Even wiggling the chiller will suddenly make the waste water out get hotter.

1.010 is a decent FG when using malt only, maybe having a slightly lower mash temp and more time at temp would lower the FG but not by much.

[subbrew]

It takes me forever to chill down a 50 gallon ferment, using a 3/8" copper coil sized for a five or ten gallon ferment. I would love to hear how other folks are cooling there mashes down. I don't like it sitting overnight as it tends to introduce "other" things.

My pot is only 14 gallons so I have to do 4 boil/mash for a 40 gallon mash. I do all my distilling in winter, so it is usually 30 to 40 degrees in the shop. After I mash one batch I put it in 3 5 gallon buckets and put a fan on them. By the time the next boil is done and I need the buckets the temp will be down around 105F assuming I have stirred the buckets a few time.

Only other thing I have done is ice or snow in the cooling water the chiller is drawing from and continually swirl the chiller around.

[Windy City]

It takes me forever to chill down a 50 gallon ferment, using a 3/8" copper coil sized for a five or ten gallon ferment. I would love to hear how other folks are cooling there mashes down. I don't like it sitting overnight as it tends to introduce "other" things.

Stirring greatly increases the heat transfer. You can feel the change in the water temp coming out the wort chiller.
Even wiggling the chiller will suddenly make the waste water out get hotter.

1.010 is a decent FG when using malt only, maybe having a slightly lower mash temp and more time at temp would lower the FG but not by much.

If you installed a whirlpool it would greatly reduce the time to chill that.
I used to use a small immersion chiller like yours on a 55 gal Blichman pot and it worked very well

[The Booze Pipe]

It takes me forever to chill down a 50 gallon ferment, using a 3/8" copper coil sized for a five or ten gallon ferment. I would love to hear how other folks are cooling there mashes down. I don't like it sitting overnight as it tends to introduce "other" things.

Stirring greatly increases the heat transfer. You can feel the change in the water temp coming out the wort chiller.
Even wiggling the chiller will suddenly make the waste water out get hotter.

1.010 is a decent FG when using malt only, maybe having a slightly lower mash temp and more time at temp would lower the FG but not by much.

Yes, I stir often when cooling! Good to know about the FG, Shady. I likely didn't need to do the addition of YLAY but I wanted to see what it could do. The mash had a lot of good smells prior to the YLAY, and tasted fairly dry. I wonder if I took away from some of the character the whiskey might have ended up with? as in I'm wondering if the YLAY changed the esters from the first yeast I used, DADY.

[The Booze Pipe]

It takes me forever to chill down a 50 gallon ferment, using a 3/8" copper coil sized for a five or ten gallon ferment. I would love to hear how other folks are cooling there mashes down. I don't like it sitting overnight as it tends to introduce "other" things.

Stirring greatly increases the heat transfer. You can feel the change in the water temp coming out the wort chiller.
Even wiggling the chiller will suddenly make the waste water out get hotter.

1.010 is a decent FG when using malt only, maybe having a slightly lower mash temp and more time at temp would lower the FG but not by much.

If you installed a whirlpool it would greatly reduce the time to chill that.
I used to use a small immersion chiller like yours on a 55 gal Blichman pot and it worked very well

Can you give an example of what this whirlpool is? If it does what I am imagining, I can see that working out well!

[Deplorable]

My Mashes are usually around 26 gallons in a 30 gallon drum, and I use my old copper coil as well, and also suited for rapidly chilling a 5 or 10 gallon beer wert. To chill my whiskey mashes, from around 105 down to 70 takes about 30 minutes. I agitate the chiller up and down in the mash to keep the outflow water hot. That in itself creates a gentle stirring of the mash to aid in more rapid cooling.

[Windy City]

image.png

This is my 55 gal Blichman beer boil kettle with built in chiller and whirlpool.
The whirlpool is the top short curved tube.
The pump draws from the bottom up into the whirlpool constantly spinning and recirculating.
It is very effective and efficient.
Before I built this I used my small immersion chiller like yours and it worked very well

[The Booze Pipe]

image.png

This is my 55 gal Blichman beer boil kettle with built in chiller and whirlpool.
The whirlpool is the top short curved tube.
The pump draws from the bottom up into the whirlpool constantly spinning and recirculating.
It is very effective and efficient.
Before I built this I used my small immersion chiller like yours and it worked very well

I see, thats a nice setup! I wonder if the Bru Haus pump I have will circulate the mash.. I'm not sure that will pump all the grain, especially corn.

[The Booze Pipe]

My Mashes are usually around 26 gallons in a 30 gallon drum, and I use my old copper coil as well, and also suited for rapidly chilling a 5 or 10 gallon beer wert. To chill my whiskey mashes, from around 105 down to 70 takes about 30 minutes. I agitate the chiller up and down in the mash to keep the outflow water hot. That in itself creates a gentle stirring of the mash to aid in more rapid cooling.

I toss in the chiller, and use a stainless "motor" mixer on a drill motor to create a vortex 2-3 times an hour. It'd be a little much to run the mixer nonstop. and it takes hours to cool it down!

[shadylane]

For chilling the mash. I use a drill powered agitator with a timer that cycles 5 seconds on and a couple minutes off.
The prop is 6" wide and located at the bottom of the mash barrel and blows upward.
Here's a pic of the speed control. 1/2 throttle seems to be a good speed

[Windy City]

image.png

This is my 55 gal Blichman beer boil kettle with built in chiller and whirlpool.
The whirlpool is the top short curved tube.
The pump draws from the bottom up into the whirlpool constantly spinning and recirculating.
It is very effective and efficient.
Before I built this I used my small immersion chiller like yours and it worked very well

I see, thats a nice setup! I wonder if the Bru Haus pump I have will circulate the mash.. I'm not sure that will pump all the grain, especially corn.

I bring all my grains down to meal/flour and use a March nano brewry pump with no problems

[The Booze Pipe]

image.png

This is my 55 gal Blichman beer boil kettle with built in chiller and whirlpool.
The whirlpool is the top short curved tube.
The pump draws from the bottom up into the whirlpool constantly spinning and recirculating.
It is very effective and efficient.
Before I built this I used my small immersion chiller like yours and it worked very well

I see, thats a nice setup! I wonder if the Bru Haus pump I have will circulate the mash.. I'm not sure that will pump all the grain, especially corn.

I bring all my grains down to meal/flour and use a March nano brewry pump with no problems

That's a much more serious pump than I have! My little pump will move wort, but I doubt it would move a thick whiskey mash.

[The Booze Pipe]

This rye turned out pretty great! I got five gallons at 55%. Although I'm not sure how... I initially thought I had four gallons at 60%. It has great flavors of spice, fruit, and honey.
Its now up in the attic on staves. 26.7" per gallon of new charred oak. Looking forward to it in a couple of years!

[OtisT]

This rye turned out pretty great! I got five gallons at 55%. Although I'm not sure how... I initially thought I had four gallons at 60%. It has great flavors of spice, fruit, and honey.
Its now up in the attic on staves. 26.7" per gallon of new charred oak. Looking forward to it in a couple of years!

Hi Booze Pipe.

All of my rye mashes have produced significantly more alcohol yield than calculated up front. Based on actual yields, I’m convinced that rye grain has much more sugar(carbs) than other grains like corn, wheat, barley. I’m fairly anal about calculating my yields on every batch, for jar planning while collecting product, and I’m typical spot on except when rye is involved. Ive not seen any distiller calculators that show this, but I’ve read several nutritional articles that confirm that rye has a lot more carbs/sugar than those other grains.

[The Booze Pipe]

This rye turned out pretty great! I got five gallons at 55%. Although I'm not sure how... I initially thought I had four gallons at 60%. It has great flavors of spice, fruit, and honey.
Its now up in the attic on staves. 26.7" per gallon of new charred oak. Looking forward to it in a couple of years!

Hi Booze Pipe.

All of my rye mashes have produced significantly more alcohol yield than calculated up front. Based on actual yields, I’m convinced that rye grain has much more sugar(carbs) than other grains like corn, wheat, barley. I’m fairly anal about calculating my yields on every batch, for jar planning while collecting product, and I’m typical spot on except when rye is involved. Ive not seen any distiller calculators that show this, but I’ve read several nutritional articles that confirm that rye has a lot more carbs/sugar than those other grains.

Right, I recall you mentioning this! My problem is, I keep notes during collection. According those notes I should have collected 4.2 gallons at 60% (after a small dilution for aging). I knew I missed recording a heart cut along the way, but not a whole gallons worth! Anyway, it worked out just fine and the flavor is fantastic, so I'm happy.

[Flustered]

I have some ViscoSeb L and a goodly portion of a sack of flaked rye I’ve been wanting to incorporate into a whiskey.

My technique is dumping boiling water into milled cracked corn in my 55 gallon blue barrel and using my barrel heating blanket to bring it to 180F and hold a couple hours for gelatinization, then cool to under 150 for the gluco enzymes.

If I were to first throw in my rye and bring it to 115F ish for the ViscoSeb hold until deslimed and then throw in my corn with boiling water and take it up to 180 would my rye suffer any ill effects from that?

I want to keep the relatively easy large batch process I’ve been having good results with if I can.

[The Booze Pipe]

I have some ViscoSeb L and a goodly portion of a sack of flaked rye I’ve been wanting to incorporate into a whiskey.

My technique is dumping boiling water into milled cracked corn in my 55 gallon blue barrel and using my barrel heating blanket to bring it to 180F and hold a couple hours for gelatinization, then cool to under 150 for the gluco enzymes.

If I were to first throw in my rye and bring it to 115F ish for the ViscoSeb hold until deslimed and then throw in my corn with boiling water and take it up to 180 would my rye suffer any ill effects from that?

I want to keep the relatively easy large batch process I’ve been having good results with if I can.

Flaked rye doesn't have any active enzymes like malted grain does. But it is already "cooked". So mash in your corn and let it gel, then bring the temp down into the 150's high 140's to add the flaked rye and ViscoSeb, along with Gluco Amylase.