Yellow Diamond Whiskey - bringing out the oats flavor

[PalCabral]

Hiya distillers.

Last year I was planning on making 4 different Bourbons but ended up focusing in only on my Wheated Bourbon, Green Diamond, which I think I have nailed down now. viewtopic.php?t=94460 This year I will be picking up some of the projects I skipped and first one out is Yellow Diamond (I am sure you see a theme here... )

My idea with Yellow Diamond is a more classic Bourbon with rye and barley malt being the flavor components along with a 72-75% proportion of corn. I am planning to experiment a little with nixtamalized corn in this recipe, but in this thread I wanted to focus on the other grains. This Bourbon should have a traditional but not overwhelming rye taste to it and I am planning to use pale rye malt along with two barley malts to create some barley character to back up the rye - English Maris Otter malt and Extra Special malt from Briess. But what about oats?

I know oats is a background player and I want to include oats to add warmth, mouthfeel and maybe a tad of crackers/bisquit. I want it to be noticed although not flavor dominant, if it ever could be? Oats is a very discrete fellow. Here's the basic recipe I am thinking of:

74% Corn
8% Rye malt
10% Barley malt
8% Oats

For the oats, I have been planning a 50/50 mix of flaked oats and Golden Naked oats from Simpson's. Golden Naked oats is a crystal malt and is quite characterful in beer, but not sure about how it will do inside a Whiskey.

Do you think the 8% oats portion is going to be enough to provide the mouthfeel and warmth? Or will the rye and the barley malt totally conquer the flavor profile? I've been tinkering with this recipe on and off for a while, especially the rye vs oats proportions. Love to hear your thoughts.

[tommysb]

I think even 5% oats is perceptible. I think 8% is a good quantity to add. Over 10% and maybe you start to get the sticky gooey problems of oats;. However if you use that enzyme blend with B-glucanase, that will be well reduced. You could lightly toast some of them in the oven (maybe just 2%) if you want more character from them.

[PalCabral]

I think even 5% oats is perceptible. I think 8% is a good quantity to add. Over 10% and maybe you start to get the sticky gooey problems of oats;. However if you use that enzyme blend with B-glucanase, that will be well reduced. You could lightly toast some of them in the oven (maybe just 2%) if you want more character from them.

Thanks, Tom. Yes, I am cautious about the oats, and the rye, because of the beta-glucans. I have a bottle of beta-glukan enzymes from Destylacja that I hope will help a little bit. I was initially thinking 4% oats but upped it as I wanted it to show. Great input! And the rye, 8% is good, you think?

[tommysb]

Didn't you use another enzyme blend too? Endozym Brewmix Plus?

Yeah I know the anti-viscosity enzyme from Destylacja. I have some bottles of it but not properly tested on a Rye mash as started using one of those composite blends.

Recently did a 50% corn 50% rye mash using one of those enzyme blends - And absolutely no issues, so I think 8% is easy!

Not sure your mash protocol, you use a braumeister right?

If you use the Brewmix plus enzyme and dose at the beginning as you bring up to temp whilst recirculating mash water and bringing up to temp, it should 'just work'. When I do that, I dump the Brewmix plus equivalent (Called Ceremix Plus IIRC), and High-temp alpha in. I bring up to gelatinisation temp with steam. It never forms a thick porridge, just stays liquid the entire time. When i hit gel temp, leave it (usually overnight) and come back next day, dose with the beta-amylase as temp will have dropped to around 60c and no longer denature the beta.

Then cool to pitching temp and pitch (I am trying to use Kveik as requires less cooling to get to pitch temp, and higher ferm temp means fast fermentation too!).


For your smaller scale, on the heatup you might want to rest around 50-55c for a bit, before continuing to raise temp to give B-glucanase good working time in its ideal range. On my bigger kit, heatup is fairly slow, so it usually spends 30-60 minutes around this temp range anyway so I don't actively pause for the beta glucan rest.

[PalCabral]

Thanks for the great insights, Tom. Yes, I've am using Brewmix Plus for my normal mashes but I was actually thinking of using YLAY altogether for this project. I've used YLAY for my Emmer and Teff Bourbons and they have worked out well, much bigger head's portion though, for some reason.

I wanted to try YLAY again for Yellow Diamond and my impression is that YLAY also contains the enzymes that sorts out beta-glucans. My experience so far is that when I would have foam up issues with a regularly mashed wash, with YLAY no signs of it. If this project goes well, I have a fuzzy plan in my head to do a high rye Bourbon and then, if the high-rye went well, a rye whiskey using YLAY. My scorching experience is like a scar in my distilling soul...

[tommysb]

Hmm ok Yellow label changes things. I gather that it's a kind of Koji type enzyme/yeast blend. How do you use heat in your mash? With Yellow label do you typically get it very hot for gelatinisation, allow it to cool, and then pitch the yellow label?

How were you thinking to use your polish enzymes?

I think whatever you do, you need to find a way to do the glucanase rest and allow the glucanse to do its work on the rye, whether it's destylacja or Brewmix.

What makes you think that yellow label will sort out the beta-glucans? I have no idea if it will or not, but I would just try to build in some insurance in case it doesn't.

[tommysb]

Hi Pal just wanted to add - yesterday I did a 10% rye (90% wheat flour, 10% rye), and dosed the Polish enzymes and Alpha amylase at the start of mashing. Then proceeded to bring up to temp.

It got thick, but not unmanageable around 60c. Just kept stirring with a drill/paint stirrer and it was fine.

[PalCabral]

Hmm ok Yellow label changes things. I gather that it's a kind of Koji type enzyme/yeast blend. How do you use heat in your mash? With Yellow label do you typically get it very hot for gelatinisation, allow it to cool, and then pitch the yellow label?

How were you thinking to use your polish enzymes?

I think whatever you do, you need to find a way to do the glucanase rest and allow the glucanse to do its work on the rye, whether it's destylacja or Brewmix.

What makes you think that yellow label will sort out the beta-glucans? I have no idea if it will or not, but I would just try to build in some insurance in case it doesn't.

I was thinking of first trying without adding any enzymes. I've actually never heard anyone have major foaming or gooey disasters with YLAY. But I am having the Polish enzyme on standby if that turns out to be a misunderstanding. I wasn't planning on using the Brewmix at all with YLAY.

Hi Pal just wanted to add - yesterday I did a 10% rye (90% wheat flour, 10% rye), and dosed the Polish enzymes and Alpha amylase at the start of mashing. Then proceeded to bring up to temp.

It got thick, but not unmanageable around 60c. Just kept stirring with a drill/paint stirrer and it was fine.

8% rye + 8% oats. Hmm. Let's see. I will mashing later this week, will report how it goes.

[tommysb]

Just throw some enzyme in as a safety blanket, It's not going to hurt. I dosed at something like 30ml for 100kg of grain.

The cost is so low, that I don't see why you wouldn't add it, compared to the hassle of a bit gummy mess. Very cheap insurance!

[PalCabral]

On Tuesday I ran the spirit run of my Yellow Diamond Whiskey. From three stripping runs, I had 30L/8 gallons of low wines plus 6.5L/1.7g of leftover wash to run, sitting at 23% ABV. I had made up my mind to be conservative with the cuts as I want to be able to drink it sooner than later, but I ran it a tad harder this time too, so there was perhaps slight more smeering in the spirit run.

It took me 8 hours and in total I collected 13L/3.5g from the run. Today while mashing my Blue Diamond Whiskey, I finalized the cuts. The hearts constituted 5.9L/11.5g at 72% and 6.6L/1.7g of feints were collected for the next time.

And a next time it will be. This is a delicious Bourbon and it smells so good. I am sitting here now with a glass of hearts, diluted a bit and it is rich and fruity. The fruit and sweetness must come from the corn. The combo of yellow dent corn, coarse ground polenta and nixtamalized blue corn gives this whiskey sweet luscious flavor and I believe the oats plays a big part in the big mouthfeel this Whiskey got. It will be very interesting to see how this Whiskey develops with oak. I'll give it char 3 I think. Very happy.

[PalCabral]

IMG_7614.jpeg

Skål and happy easter!

[MooseMan]

Sounds like a complete success Pal!

Gotta love the oats man.

[PalCabral]

Autumn season is about to start and my first Bourbon out will be a second version of Yellow Diamond to be stored in my brand new 20L/5g barrel, that I brought with me from Portugal (we arrived home today).

I am just sipping the Yellow Diamond v.1, as above, at 4 months and it is developing into a nice whiskey. Corn sweetness, obviously, that barley backbone being subtle, and a slight creaminess that I imagine come from the oats. Can't say I taste the rye in this whiskey much, maybe a tad peppery flavors. I am sure this can become a great whiskey but I think it is a bit too "nice".

So, in my endeavors to make a perfect oated Bourbon, I will increase the rye component in place of barley malt and some of the corn. The oats component will stay the same. To dice it up, I will use yellow Portuguese Belgrano that I brought with me from Portugal and use 2/3 unmalted rye of a specialty rye variety called Warbro. I want the rye to show up and give the oats something to lace around. In my mind I think oats coating around peppery or herbal rye will work well.

Yellow Diamond V2:
72% Corn (50/50 feed corn and Belgrano corn)
12% Rye (1/3 malted rye, 2/3 Warbro rye)
8% Oats (1/3 crystal malt oats, 2/3 naked oats)
8% Barley malt

I am thinking of toasting the naked oats. What do you think? Should I go all in or only toast half?

[Username]

Are you going to use YLAY this time around again?

It seems to be a recipe that you're fine tuning, .
Would you do 2 versions, one with all toasted naked oats and another with the crystal oat malt, to see what each bring, you have a version with untoasted oats?

[PalCabral]

Are you going to use YLAY this time around again?

It seems to be a recipe that you're fine tuning, .
Would you do 2 versions, one with all toasted naked oats and another with the crystal oat malt, to see what each bring, you have a version with untoasted oats?

Yes. It's YLAY now for all my Bourbons. The process is well tuned in and I distill two and half week after I "mash in". But I will again co-pitch with USW-6. I tried it once but saw nothing special but I wanted to try it again.

I will need to do two spirit runs to fill the barrel so I could toast the first batch of three ferments and use the crystal oats malt for the remaining three. It's a good idea!

[tommysb]

This Recipe resurfaced a couple of days ago, it doesn't seem a million miles away - however you are swapping out wheat for malted barley (more character?):

viewtopic.php?t=72468

The toasted oats apparently really bring 'something'. In the CROW the oats are about 4%, but you are using barley instead of wheat, so upping the oats a bit is a good idea to let them compete with the other flavours present. I think that toasting half oats would work, then you are at the (roughly) 4% toasted as in CROW, and you just bring something ELSE extra with the 4% crystal oats.

What's the distilling version of relax don't worry have a homebrew?

[PalCabral]

What's the distilling version of relax don't worry have a homebrew?

I think it must be "relax, drink your own shine"?

I saw the old CROW thread surface and also reflect on it being similar. The oats in CROW is for mouthfeel creaminess and it seems 4-5% of it works. I wanted to see if I could get more flavor from the oats so I aimed at 8%, being careful not to get into beta-glukan problems. I am not sure if I can taste oats though in the sample I had yesterday. Not that I really know what oats taste like but there was a sense of something in the flavor, and I am guessing it was the oats. My understanding is that oats have some spice and that it could blend well with rye.

Wheat and oats together seems to me like having both margarine and butter. Both are mouthfeel influencers in lower proportions. Wheat needs to be in the high teens at least to make a flavor impact (which it is in CROW). Barley malt, on the other hand, always brings that malt base I like in a whiskey. Not sure how low you will need to go before it disappears from the flavor profile.