Trying to salvage a 30 liter barrel

[higgins]

I think something might be amiss with posting - specifically, quoting a post with images.

In my last post when I clicked the quote the pictures didn't show ... in their place was "image.jpg". I'm sure that I have used the quote in the past and it included the images. I ended up copying the image link and pasting it into my response.

Here's what it looked like when I hit the quote button:

Thanks for the encouragement. In fact, I am seeing some improvements. The side that sat with the bottom down over night seems to have sealed fairly well and it’s now floating when I turned it - I had to weigh it down a bit, see last picture.

But the other side, the stave in which the bung hole sits is still with a huge crack, where the first picture is taken. As you can see, the whole stave is pressed in and not aligned with its’ neighbor stave. Second picture.

image.jpg

image.jpg

image.jpg

I tried a different web browser and got the same thing. Has anyone else noticed this?

(I couldn't find a forum more appropriate for this so posted here where the problem occurred ... mods - feel free to move this if you want)

[PalCabral]

Pal, when I refurbished my 5 gal / 19L barrel I used a rubber mallet to hammer on the staves to help align the surface between them. By hitting on the stave that is higher it seems to pull the adjacent stave up so the seam is more even. That seems to have worked well for me. You could use a hammer - if so, use a bit of restraint so you don't smash wood fibers.

Thanks for the tip, higgins. I have been thinking about this as perhaps the biggest challenge, thinking I might have to open the barrel to "bang it" in place from the inside. When I come to it, I will try your approach instead. I have a rubber mullet which I am using, applying the correct weight to the blow is another matter. Good to know it is possible to align the indented stave with its' neighbors the way you suggested.

The barrel head leaks are in specific places. At least one of them was like a small sink drain, frothing almost as it was "slurping" in the water I had filled the barrel head with when it was standing. It's not slurping anymore but still leaking. I am hoping barrel wax will do the trick but we'll see.

[Username]

Pal, when I refurbished my 5 gal / 19L barrel I used a rubber mallet to hammer on the staves to help align the surface between them. By hitting on the stave that is higher it seems to pull the adjacent stave up so the seam is more even. That seems to have worked well for me. You could use a hammer - if so, use a bit of restraint so you don't smash wood fibers.

Thanks for the tip, higgins. I have been thinking about this as perhaps the biggest challenge, thinking I might have to open the barrel to "bang it" in place from the inside. When I come to it, I will try your approach instead. I have a rubber mullet which I am using, applying the correct weight to the blow is another matter. Good to know it is possible to align the indented stave with its' neighbors the way you suggested.

The barrel head leaks are in specific places. At least one of them was like a small sink drain, frothing almost as it was "slurping" in the water I had filled the barrel head with when it was standing. It's not slurping anymore but still leaking. I am hoping barrel wax will do the trick but we'll see.

If it helps Pal, I recently popped the head off a 10L barrel by tapping off the hoops from one side. This left things quite intact. I realise with staves that have dropped away it will be less so, however I was encouraged by how easy this was to do and then put back together.

[PalCabral]

If it helps Pal, I recently popped the head off a 10L barrel by tapping off the hoops from one side. This left things quite intact. I realise with staves that have dropped away it will be less so, however I was encouraged by how easy this was to do and then put back together.

I really hope I won't have to go there, username. It scares me to "destroy" the barrel and never be able to put it together again. #childhoodtrauma

[higgins]

Pal, here's my topic on reviving my 5gal/19L barrel

/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7796180

It did leak a slight bit for a few weeks, but it hardened into barrel candy and sealed itself. No more than a few ounces leaked over that time. I'm still using it for my solera bourbon.

[PalCabral]

Pal, here's my topic on reviving my 5gal/19L barrel

/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7796180

It did leak a slight bit for a few weeks, but it hardened into barrel candy and sealed itself. No more than a few ounces leaked over that time. I'm still using it for my solera bourbon.

Thanks Higgins. Will read until eyes bleed

[Yummyrum]

It did leak a slight bit for a few weeks, but it hardened into barrel candy and sealed itself.

I’ve never heard of that term used before Higgins , but it describes perfectly what happened to a leak around the tap on my barrel . What looks wet is hardened toffee stuff I can scape off with my fingernail .

IMG_4719.jpeg

[Copperhead road]

I have never heard of Barrel Candy also. you never stop learning different terminology's here on HD.

[higgins]

Smells wonderful, but don't taste it - it is vile!

[PalCabral]

Smells wonderful, but don't taste it - it is vile!

There are two different people: 1) one that smells it and puts it in their mouth, 2) one that smells it and then looks around to find someone else who can put it in their mouth. Which one are you, higgins?

[PalCabral]

Today I have started to only hydrate the barrel from the inside. Three (or four) leaks are obvious. On both heads there are leaks, and on the very bottom stave, opposite the bung stave, I have the same problem as with the bung stave as in that the stave itself is pressed in and not aligned with its' neighbor staves, meaning there are leaks on both sides of the stave. But this one is dropping slower now, so I am thinking the hydrating on this inside will help further. I will carry on like this now for a couple of days.

On a side note, when I had dried the barrel over night I had to smell the inside of the barrel. My oh my, what a lovely whisky (scottish spelling is in order here) aroma. The inside is full of it. Rich malt whisky aroma. If I manage the fix the leaks, this barrel will do wonderful things to finish my whiskies.

image.jpg

[Yummyrum]

. The inside is full of it. Rich malt whisky aroma. If I manage the fix the leaks, this barrel will do wonderful things to finish my whiskies.

You lucky bastard

[30xs]

I would think keeping the ends wet would be the fastest way to hydrate the staves. Capillary action from the end grain should be the fastest route. The inside and outside by design should off the least permeation.

[Username]

Smells wonderful, but don't taste it - it is vile!

I don't know, I've only ever had mine, from a fresh badmo clone, new american white oak. Tasted quite good to me worth a taste just to learn I'm inclined to say

[tommysb]

Every morning I have been grabbing a coffee and checking on how Pal's barrel is doing

[PalCabral]

Thanks, Tom. Today, there’s not much action on the barrel front, I am continuing to hydrate it, although at this point I’m not having any high hopes for the 3-4 leaks I have left. But for sake of completion I’ll pull the plug on Sunday night.

Obn a different note, I picked up beeswax today. Had to order it on Amazon, didnt find anything Portugal.

IMG_4731.jpeg

Yummy Edit : I turned your coffee up the right way , couldn’t have it running all over the bees wax.

[Copperhead road]

Bees wax with your early morning coffee... noice Pal.

i still have confidence in your Barrel swelling and sealing....

[Corn Cracker]

It's trying to seal up, it took a few years for it to dry out like that, it will take a bit to rehydrate it, your definitely making it happen

[tommysb]

Yummy Edit : I turned your coffee up the right way , couldn’t have it running all over the bees wax.

I think it already was the right way up Yummy, just that you were viewing it from the wrong side of the world!

[PalCabral]

Yummy Edit : I turned your coffee up the right way , couldn’t have it running all over the bees wax.

Lol. Thank you. I don't know how to make pictures stand in the correct way in this forum, I never seem to make it work right, but we can't have members spilling coffee at breakfast. It ruins the whole day!

I think it already was the right way up Yummy, just that you were viewing it from the wrong side of the world!

[30xs]

I’d try popping the one end and try getting the staves better aligned around the center. It’d think that it trying to swell out of alignment may not be letting it seal since the mating surfaces aren’t where they need to be.

[Homesweethome]

I’d try popping the one end and try getting the staves better aligned around the center. It’d think that it trying to swell out of alignment may not be letting it seal since the mating surfaces aren’t where they need to be.

I think so too.

[Homesweethome]

It is only logical that staves have to be into place before swelling them. Swelling the staves when they are out of place is bound to deform them and make the problem worse...

[PalCabral]

So today I emptied the barrel. It's been hydrating with water since Thursday last week, so 4 days with water inside, regularly topping up with hot water. Initially, the leakages were prominent, lots of dripping. But after 2-3 days all leaks but one started slowing down, but none of them stopping completely.

Here is a couple of picture from the bottom of the barrel, where I have a leak along the stave joint. Initially, the leak was the entire length but after 2 days it shrank to be the very bottom, where you still can see where the moist from the leak. What you can't see so well in this picture is that the neighboring staves are not fully aligned with the bottom stave. About a millimeter difference where they meet.

I will attempt to bang them a bit closer using a rubber mallet, but I will be ever so careful. After that I will rub barrel wax along the entire stave joint, both sides, to see if I can plug this leak from the outside.

Bottom 2.jpg

Bottom.jpg

Middle crack.jpg

[Peaty Jones]

Hi Pal!

Its hard to see whats going on from just pictures but i think 30xs is right. I also took a look the first pictures you sent in this thread and that stave which were the bung is seems to me that it has some misaligment also. There seems to be gaps
Between the hoop and the stave. Also the picture where you see the barrel end to me it seems like the narrower ”key stave” is a bit off also. But like i said its hard to see just from pictures. All the staves should meet the hoop. If they dont i would also tap out one hoop loose and try to smack them on their place. Sorry i didnt read all of the posts but If its american white oak its really hard and you can use something like birch or pine wood between the hammer and the barrel to not cause tremendous marks on it. French oak on my experience is much softer.

Good luck with your quest!

[PalCabral]

Hi Pal!

Its hard to see whats going on from just pictures but i think 30xs is right. I also took a look the first pictures you sent in this thread and that stave which were the bung is seems to me that it has some misaligment also. There seems to be gaps
Between the hoop and the stave. Also the picture where you see the barrel end to me it seems like the narrower ”key stave” is a bit off also. But like i said its hard to see just from pictures. All the staves should meet the hoop. If they dont i would also tap out one hoop loose and try to smack them on their place. Sorry i didnt read all of the posts but If its american white oak its really hard and you can use something like birch or pine wood between the hammer and the barrel to not cause tremendous marks on it. French oak on my experience is much softer.

Good luck with your quest!

Thanks, Peaty! It's American oak, as far as I know. I will take the hoops off tonight, one side first, then the other. Not all of us have a cooper in them that wants out

[Peaty Jones]

I recommend you to try it with only one hoop bit loose and try to adjust it like that. If that doesnt give enough loose then the whole hoop off. Dont take them all or it can get quite trick to get it back.

Coopers usually belt sand those barrels from the outside for the looks so when they leave the factory those staves are flush to each other. This is the case usually but ofcourse i cant speak/know for everybody. Those staves ar kind of like wedges and if you think about it that when they dry they shrink and if a wedge piece shrinks they become loose on those hoops. Some staves shrink more and other less.

After getting them in place i suggest you get some sort of bigger vessel where you can submerge it fully so it swollens from every side equally. Wetting it from one side can make them misalign again.

But don’t take what I say as gospel, these are just my thoughts. Like i said, its hard to say anything from just pictures and also i dont claim to even be an expert on this field.

Now go and show that barrel what you’ve got!

Hi Pal!

Its hard to see whats going on from just pictures but i think 30xs is right. I also took a look the first pictures you sent in this thread and that stave which were the bung is seems to me that it has some misaligment also. There seems to be gaps
Between the hoop and the stave. Also the picture where you see the barrel end to me it seems like the narrower ”key stave” is a bit off also. But like i said its hard to see just from pictures. All the staves should meet the hoop. If they dont i would also tap out one hoop loose and try to smack them on their place. Sorry i didnt read all of the posts but If its american white oak its really hard and you can use something like birch or pine wood between the hammer and the barrel to not cause tremendous marks on it. French oak on my experience is much softer.

Good luck with your quest!

Thanks, Peaty! It's American oak, as far as I know. I will take the hoops off tonight, one side first, then the other. Not all of us have a cooper in them that wants out

[30xs]

That was my thoughts. Swelling a stave/wedge that isn’t aligned only creates excess pressure on the points that are out of line and doesn’t create a seal, because of alignment. A dead blow hammer is highly unlikely to cause enough deformation no matter the wood. You can raise dents in wood using a wet cloth and an iron. Once in place water should seal it to be ready for spirits.

[PalCabral]

Here's a small update before real work starts. On Monday I spent the evening releasing hoops, first on one side, to smear in barrel wax along the stave joints where I have detected leaks. Then back on with the hoops and a hard tightening of them. Then off with hoops on the other side and rinse and repeat. The tightening of the hoops was definitely necessary. The quarter hoops were moved at least 2cm more inside with this operation.

After this, I've been repeatedly filling the barrel half full with piping hot water. Rotating the barrel every so often, including so that the top staves were wetted and steamed. Initially, there were quite a lot of drops but then it sealed up perfectly. Not a drop from the bottom stave, not from the top stave, where the misalignment of the staves are most visible. First operation is a success.

But as the sign says on I-70 as you are descending from the continental divide down to Denver, "Attention truckers, you're not down yet"! Now it's time for the second operation, sealing the barrel heads. This evening I will melt beeswax and pour into the croze on each of the heads. Here it still leaks and I am not sure from exactly from where. Using beeswax will be a first try. If it fails, I may still need to open the heads but I and hoping I will not have to as some of the work I've done so far then will have to be redone. But ok, it is what it is.

However, so far the lenghty process is going in the right direction, so far so good.

[Username]

Well done Pal, your dedication is paying off. It will be great to have a barrel that size in your arsenal

Edit: I think the whole community will miss the drama though, it's been like waiting for an episode of your favourite show to drop