FLUTE TALK

[mash rookie]

Flan. Is that your name? (that’s Mexican custard right) You need to keep reading. Performance, quality, premium results? Pretty generic question there.
Both systems work great. It depends on what you want to make. Bubble cap stills are most commonly used on stills for making brandies and full flavored liquor.(fruit)
Perforated plates are more commonly used on whiskey and vodka stills. (grain)
That being said, it is difficult not to get heavy tasting booze with a perf plated still that only has four to six plates. They will achieve a high ABV but not allow separation of fractions.
Keep reading Amigo!

[Prairiepiss]

So my question is. Will providing a vapor expansion area around a condenser coil improve its efficiency?

It can't hurt, I'd be pretty sure of that. So I don't think you will lose anything, but you might have a bit to gain.
You might have to pave the way on this one PP.

How would you go about it? I'm picturing a big ball with a large-ish diameter coil- am I on the right track?

As the others have said, I find the 5 inch long dephlag I have responds ok, can knock down all I throw at it and really uses very little water when in partial reflux. I don't know how much more efficient you can make one of these.

Not far off Empty. 8" ball with duel coils that have separate controls. Kinda a two stage condenser setup.

And Myles got me thinkin about maybe a coldfinger in the middle? With the coils spaced off of it. The cold finger would push the vapors out and around it into the coils.

But my build is a little different then the standard plated builds. And I would like something that fits the design. Not trying to make a better dephlagmater. Just trying to bring a design together better.

[emptyglass]

[And Myles got me thinkin about maybe a coldfinger in the middle? With the coils spaced off of it. The cold finger would push the vapors out and around it into the coils.

What about a flat wound coil, or perhaps with a little taper? Myles might be onto it with the coldfinger....

Just farting, but I reckon a 8" ball squashed, in effect, would look cool. Sort of like a sat on basketball, 5 or 6" high. Would make fitting a coil easier, but I don't know how you would form it. Maybe make a ball and squash it ?

[Backflush]

Bypass Valve Question. I noticed that in all the builds have seen so far, I have not seen one with plate bypass valves on the side of the flutes so you can either use all the plates, or just one or two. Is it because it would be difficult to install? It would make the flute much more flexible to use depending on what your trying to acheive. I see that all the professional units have them.

[Prairiepiss]

You haven't looked hard enough.
ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2.
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 17&t=20947


Posting while Rad was.

[myles]

I don't think I would consider building one of these columns now without incorporationg:

1. Valves to individual disable any given plate. Either because there was something wrong with it or I just didn't want to use it.
2. A valve to take a liquid sample from the top plate and return it directly onto the lowest plate.

These columns seem to be evolving into more sophisticated and versatile devices almost every time I look in.

[mash rookie]

I don't think I would consider building one of these columns now without incorporationg:

1. Valves to individual disable any given plate. Either because there was something wrong with it or I just didn't want to use it.
2. A valve to take a liquid sample from the top plate and return it directly onto the lowest plate.

These columns seem to be evolving into more sophisticated and versatile devices almost every time I look in.

Now you are starting to touch an ignored subject Myles. Is anyone understanding how and why plate valves are used. Are we still just trying to copy commercial units without understanding how they work? How does a master distiller use disabling to drive his still?

They are positioned above liquid level. When in open position they allow vapors to bypass upper plates. Potentially collapsing upper plates and producing lower ABV and fraction separation. Why?

Used as intended as a disabling tool they are worthless on a 4-6 plate column. Our down sized flutes already don’t have enough height to separate fractions well. They can only make heavy flavored liquor. Why would you want to disable a plate on a 4-6 plate still?

My plate valve design is used as a drain to mimic additional plates with the goal to provide better separation of fractions. Positioned below liquid level at the top plate and central in the bottom chamber, it can be used for either function. Recycle or bypass. Using a site glass above a valve and no trap the valve can hold back just enough liquid to prevent vapor from bypassing. Liquid drains to lower plate where it goes through the system again. In full open position raw vapor races up preventing most liquid return. My still becomes more like a pot still.

[Odin]

The way a Hollstein is run, is not like you guys run your flutes. The big difference is in a bigger dephlag and in using that dephlag to create equilibrium to concentrate and then seperate off heads.

In a Hollstein, Old Dog's inspiration for his Magic Flute, a different approach is used. Fist, I think it is important to state that they were originally designed to make fruit brandies. And since each fruit gives off more flavor or less flavour / more heads or less heads, 4, 5, 6 plated Hollsteins are used. They are versatile and can deal with all fruit brandies/Schnapps.

For a fruit that gives off a lot off flavour and a lot of heads, they will set the dephlag so to fill up plates and to get a higher abv. They know it will cost them some taste, but the strong fruit can have that. And a higher abv output gives them a more precise head cut.

Note: they will not get an equilibrium. Dephlags, if used at all, create some extra reflux to up the abv.

For fruits with less taste and more or less heads, they use different approaches. I have some books giving all de details on settings. In German. I will try to copy some pages that give this info, so we can all have a look at it.

For fruits with less taste (and hopefully less heads), they will not put on the dephlag at all, and take out most of the plates.

My conclusions on how "master distillers" use these big babies:
- As a fortified pot still;
- Not taking advantage of the possibilities to concentrate and seperate out heads;
- Not taking advantage of the fact that a flute like design can give you increadible taste, even above 80% abv (the old master distiller's rule: "above 80% you start to looze out on taste").

So in an important aspect of the craft "we" are much further than they are. They have the tools, but started from a pot still perspective, where, on this site, the strategy of running a VM or LM is applied to a flute: equilibrium, draw off heads, collect hearts, etc. In the mean while the intense reflux and plate action strips out all tasty components and brings them over to the final likker. Two advantages, that is, that on a regular Hollstein management are not achieved.

Odin.

[mash rookie]

Odin, That was to be my second part of my rant. Guys don’t understand that bubble plates are just mini thumpers intended to keep flavor in. To my knowledge they are only used on Hollsteins and other Brandy stills.

That does not make them very versatile for artisan distilling unless you only want to make flavored product.

In fact, our perforated plate flutes are run like a Holstein. I don’t believe we are ahead of them. In fact it is difficult to strip any flavor congeners with a flute. We use the dephlag to stack the plates and hold back distillate until water has been separated and higher ABV is achieved. Separation of fractions is not achieved. You can make 90% birdwatchers that tastes like crap.

It is my understanding that on taller commercial perf plate stills the dephlag is only used at start up for equalization and then left off for the entire run. Allowing the natural fraction separations within the taller column.

Back to the original question. How do master distillers use plate disabling on columns and why would we want to? We have yet to build a flute that will strip flavors. Once we do being able to disable or detune for flavored drink may be desirable.

[myles]

Mine is definitely intended to be stacked thumpers (offset from the boiler), and as such each plate will have a greater liquid depth than some of the other flute builds. 5 chambers with liquid depths varying from 30mm on the 5th plate to 45 on the 2nd, with 100mm on the 1st. As for the plate disables I am going to incorporate a plate drain function into each one so that I can empty plates at will.

I am anticipating varying the number of plates that are used not only between different products but also (perhaps MAINLY) during the run. Not having run one yet this is speculation, but I expect to run 5 plates for the heads phase and then probably drop to 3 plates whilst collecting hearts.

When running fruit brandies I want to keep dilution to a minimum (to maintain flavour) so will be adjusting the plate count to get my product as close to final cask proof as possible. If I am bottleing with fruit in the bottle I will be looking for a few points higher proof.

When runing vodka I will use all 5 plates, and when producing neutral as a base spirit for gin I am retaining the option of adding an additional offset packed column. Although I might just keep the packed column completely independent and on its own boiler. In fact with the option of returning a sample of liquid from plate 5 to plate 1 it might be possible to get the neutral clean enough without further processing - I just don't know yet.

Edit: I have read elsewhere, that if you run the column slowly enough, you can get the vapour to condense inside the bubble caps and then flash boil on the plates - resulting in very high proof but at a slow product rate. Has anyone tried it to see just how clean a product it is possible to get from a plated still? Its probably the opposite of how most folks run their still.

[myles]

[And Myles got me thinkin about maybe a coldfinger in the middle? With the coils spaced off of it. The cold finger would push the vapors out and around it into the coils.

What about a flat wound coil, or perhaps with a little taper? Myles might be onto it with the coldfinger....

Just farting, but I reckon a 8" ball squashed, in effect, would look cool. Sort of like a sat on basketball, 5 or 6" high. Would make fitting a coil easier, but I don't know how you would form it. Maybe make a ball and squash it ?

I have been reconsidering this. The big coldfinger is one way to do this, but if you are using a shotgun style dephlegmator then the entire lower surface is ALSO a coldfinger. It is just annother option. I am going to be using a shotgun dephlegmator with 2 coolant outputs so I can have just an inch of liquid in the dephlegmator for partial reflux and then run the shotgun full for total reflux.

[mash rookie]

When runing vodka I will use all 5 plates, and when producing neutral as a base spirit for gin I am retaining the option of adding an additional offset packed column. Although I might just keep the packed column completely independent and on its own boiler. In fact with the option of returning a sample of liquid from plate 5 to plate 1 it might be possible to get the neutral clean enough without further processing - I just don't know yet.

Miles you will not be able to produce neutral with five plates. Disabling is different than a drain system. Disabling allows vapor to pass while a plate drain allows liquid to recycle through the system. With five bubble caps you should be able to achieve high flavour and ABV. If you are going to use a recycle drain system there are two things you need to know. One; leave the drain closed until you have taken heads or they will remain in the system and tend to smear. Two; it will slow take off and require much less coolant at your reflux condenser. It will clean up taste but is not as affective as height.

I like the idea of a add on packed column. You always have interesting ideas and build unique equipment.

Edit: I have read elsewhere, that if you run the column slowly enough, you can get the vapour to condense inside the bubble caps and then flash boil on the plates - resulting in very high proof but at a slow product rate. Has anyone tried it to see just how clean a product it is possible to get from a plated still? Its probably the opposite of how most folks run their still.

Interesting. Next time I run my flute I will power at the lowest possible temp that maintains a boil (reduce vapor speed) and check ABV produced without using the dephlag. I am guessing that it will drop to that of a pot still and not be any cleaner.

I have learned from experience that cold fingers and coils just do not have enough surface area to work at the speeds we are now running at. My I robot used a flat coil. It was not as affective as I had hoped.

[myles]

MR I hear what you say, but I might be thinking about this from a slightly different point of view.

I am going to fit a "drain" to the top plate so that I can take some high proof liquid to be returned to the lowest plate, probably as a sample point a bit lower than the downcommers on the top plate, so that I am not able to completely deplete the liquid load on that plate. Althouhg I am also considering simply diverting the downcomer.

My plate "disable" will completely empty the liquid load on the plate onto the next one down. This will free up all the vapour path (bubble cap risers - if i was using them ) for vapour to by-pass the disabled plate. With no liquid on the plate the vapour path has no liquid seal at all. The disable line may well have vapour and liquid passing in contraflow dependent on the flow down the downcomers from the higher plates.

At this point I can't think why I would wish to re-cycle from anywhere other than top plate to lowest plate, so I am not intending to build that option in.

[NcHooch]

Are you intending to do this to increase proof?
How do you plan to keep the vapor from traveling up the tube, and preventing to liquid from coming down?

it's quite obvious to me after many runs with my flute that there is a significant pressure difference from the bottom to the top of a flute. (top being near ambient) ...I should test that next run, but my guess it, the boiler may be somewhere between 1-2 psi when all the plates are stacked.

[mash rookie]

Miles that is about how mine works. It is placed slightly above the plate so It will not completely empty it. My top plate typically holds more liquid anyway. There is no reason to drain anywhere but to the bottom for complete cycling.

I am still not sure why you would want to bypass plates unless you are going to build a ten plate still but want to make brandy. Even five or six plates will make full flavor whiskey rum and brandy.

[myles]

Miles that is about how mine works. It is placed slightly above the plate so It will not completely empty it. My top plate typically holds more liquid anyway. There is no reason to drain anywhere but to the bottom for complete cycling.

I am still not sure why you would want to bypass plates unless you are going to build a ten plate still but want to make brandy. Even five or six plates will make full flavor whiskey rum and brandy.

I am only intending 5 plates but think that sometimes that might be too many. With fruit brandy for example I can see how I might want to use all 5 at the start but then reduce to 2 or 3 for the hearts. Just to get product at cask strength without diluting too much. Expecially as some of the fruit flavours are a bit "light" anyhow.

[emptyglass]

it's quite obvious to me after many runs with my flute that there is a significant pressure difference from the bottom to the top of a flute. (top being near ambient) ...I should test that next run, but my guess it, the boiler may be somewhere between 1-2 psi when all the plates are stacked.

I agree. There is the weight of the fluid on the plates that the vapor is pushing through, plus the regular stilling pressure.
When I first made mine, on the test runs, the bottom sight glass seal started to weep, but only when the plates fully stacked for the first time. Easily fixed, but it did provoke some thought as to why it didn't leak on the wash and test run.
I put it down to extra pressure at the bottom.

[mash rookie]

No doubt Hooch. There is greater pressure at the bottom plate chamber. If you are going to return distillate without vapor pushing past you do have to take preventative measures. A trap alone might not be enough and would lack control. How is your new girl running? She is a looker.



edit to add,

aaaaaaaand that's why I'm at the kiddy table. I even commented in that thread. Thought a dephleg was a condenser.

You do know he is screwing with you dont you Frosty? Yes a dephlag is a reflux condenser.
I thought I would throw a table scrap your way.

[mash rookie]

Exactly Rock. Perfect. But dont tell Frosty

[NcHooch]

No doubt Hooch. There is greater pressure at the bottom plate chamber. If you are going to return distillate without vapor pushing past you do have to take preventative measures. A trap alone might not be enough and would lack control. How is your new girl running? She is a looker.

I'd tend to agree, a trap alone might not be enough, but I cant quite imagine what else yall would use.

as far as the bugle, it looks like it might be the perfect whiskey still, during the cleaning run it was putting out fores at 90%, and then once the hearts came it was streaming out at a steady 80% ....what more can you ask for ?

[mash rookie]

as far as the bugle, it looks like it might be the perfect whiskey still, during the cleaning run it was putting out fores at 90%, and then once the hearts came it was streaming out at a steady 80% ....what more can you ask for ?

Not much! sounds like a sweet unit. I run mine full throttle on Uj and take off at 80 -85% Good job Bugle man.

I'd tend to agree, a trap alone might not be enough, but I cant quite imagine what else yall would use.

Consider weight and gravity VS your vapor pressure. Maintaining enough liquid volume above a given drain point will offset your pressure. (Key) Maintaining.

[Frosteecat]

Thanks for clearing that all up for me.

I'm not a smart scientist guy like y'all...

[myles]

For the automation inclined returning liquid from the top plate to the bottom plate, against the pressure differential, is not an issue. All this requires is a simple tube and 2 valves, 1 at the top of the tube and 1 at the bottom. Set to cycle so that 1 is open and 1 is closed, determined by a timer. Provided the bottom of the tube opens into vapour space above the lower plate, then the drain tube will alternately fill with liquid and then dump the contents onto the plate.

For everyone else this could be an option.



I would imagine the inner tube would need to be longer than the total liquid depth on all the plates. Vapour pressure would balance the weight of the liquid in the outer chamber at first, but once there was sufficient liquid to overcome the pressure it would get to the bottom plate. It would probably surge though, and it might even pulsate (self empty cyclicaly due to the auto-syphon effect). Don't know without trying it.

(I didn't show it but I would also put in a second valve to empty the outer chamber for cleaning purposes)

Whether this would provide a slow constant flow onto the plate, I don't know.
Edit: the simple tube and 2 valve option might work manually if the flow into the tube was greater than the flow out of it to maintain a head of pressure. Possibly using one of these:

[mash rookie]

You don’t need two valves but your design does show what is necessary. Increased volume behind the valve and restriction. If the line, valve and exit orifice are the same size when fully open all liquid will pass and empty allowing vapor to rise.
There either needs to be a restriction past the valve or the valve kept partially closed to keep liquid backed up. That is how mine works. The problem is knowing how far to open the valve. I Solved this by putting glass tubing inline above the valve. I wait until heads are taken and tube is full before partially opening the valve allowing liquid down, keeping a level within the site tube. It works. Its cool, but an easier solution would be to have a drilled restriction below a valve.



edit to add; Frosty that is the funniest damn video ever. We have all shot ourselves in the ass with a rocket a few times. (Figuratively) Most good lessons I learn the hard way.

[myles]

I do like the idea of a visual indication with a glass level indicator. What sort of flow rate are we talking about anyway? If building head against an orrifice works, then that seems to be a good solution.

Are we talking about a 1/2" outlet and 1/2" gate valve feeding a 1/2" level indicator into a 1/4" orrifice. or is that too much. Not having run one of these yet I have no idea of the scale of liquid volume (or flow rate) that wants to be returned to the bottom plate.

For all I know it might be more appropriate to use a 1/4" needle valve, 3/8" level indicator and a 1/8" orrifice. For those of you that actually do this what are you using, and just as importantly what boiler input is it matched against, so we can sort of put it in perspective.

[mash rookie]

You can return a pretty fair amount of liquid. Mine is a ½” copper and 3/8”NPT stainless gate valve. It is compact and has very little restriction when wide open.
My pipe threads directly into the valve. You can thread ½” copper with a 3/8” NPT die. Not real deep threads but plenty good enough to tighten well with Teflon tape for a great connection.

I don’t want to give up ALL my tricks but in the spirit of HD I will explain how simple, cheap and easy it is to make a site tube.
15mm heavy wall Boro tubing is about $5 for 5’. So for about 50 cents and some copper we can make a site glass. Cut a six inch piece of glass tubing and two 8-10” pieces of copper tube. Using a sander or stone ease the cut edges on the glass tube so that it does not have sharp corner. Clean and slightly flare one opening on each pipe. Clamp the other end of pipe in a vise. I cut off and throw away a couple inches later that have been flattened.
Have a block of wood handy. With map gas torch in one hand and glass tube in the other start heating the top two inches of pipe. You will heat until it turns red. As you are heating the pipe I like to heat the end of the Boro for a second or two every ten seconds or so while heating the pipe. You do not want the glass tubing hot. Just a little warm to reduce any shock. It can handle shock and this is probably not necessary but I do it.
When the copper pipe is hot enough to turn red, it has expanded enough to accept the glass tubing. Set down the torch, insert the glass tubing and give it a few gentle taps with the wooden block It should go in about 1-1/2” Allow to cool undisturbed. Once cool, remove and clamp second copper pipe in your vice and repeat. After it cools you can polish the copper and solder it into your system. The copper will have contracted to a perfect pressure seal. I tested my first one to 100 psi.

[poboy]

Hi all, wanted to run this by the flute guys. Haven’t seen this discussed anywhere else but I’d appreciate being pointed in the right direction if it has….

I would like to build a flute with 6 perforated plates that can each be rotated to vertical. I would do this by brazing a rod to the underside of the plate through it’s centerline that would extend out the side of the column so that turning the rod would rotate the plate from horizontal to vertical. Plate seal in the horizontal (working) position would be achieved by a couple of “half moon” stops fixed to the inside of the column that would stop the plate in the horizontal and achieve an adequate seal for proper plate behavior. I want to do this so that I can physically bypass plates to change flavor profiles, and because I’m going to install a set of sprayers on the backside of my column that will spray into the plates when rotated vertically for cleanout. Got that idea from the Arnold Holstein still I learned on.

My question is: how would you guys go about making a seal around the rods (probably ¼ or 3/8 stainless) poking out the side of my column?

That Holstein still also stored all the hot water that came out of the dephleg / product condenser to use for cleaning the still after a run. I thought that was genius, but that discussion probably belongs in another thread.

[Prairiepiss]

1/4" or 3/8" compression fittings. It has been discussed. But I can't for the life of me remember where?

[mash rookie]

I think you have a wonderful idea. PP is correct. Use a compression fitting. Or ½ of one and replace the tube ferrule with Teflon tape. The nut will make a nice seal. Grainger sells stainless fittings. Even if you use brass there I recommend using stainless rods in the vapor path. Most brass contains lead or zinc.

[myles]

I do a simmilar thing with my temperature probes. They go through a compression fitting. I put the compression nut on the probe (shaft in this case) then put in a washer and wrap ptfe tape to form a bung. I dont use the compression ring. The ptfe "bung" goes into the body of the fitting and is compressed by the washer to make a good seal when you tighten the nut.

In reality it is just a variation on the packing used on some valve stems - so it is not a new idea. But it works.