piggyback some booze on yer beer

[mbz250sl]

So since this just came off a ferment, is there any need to add a new yeast starter? If I'm using 118 will it be strong enough to convert all of the sugar? Thanks

[NcHooch]

When I make this, the grain just came outa the mashtun...not a fermenter, so there's no yeast.

So since this just came off a ferment, is there any need to add a new yeast starter? If I'm using 118 will it be strong enough to convert all of the sugar? Thanks

[Prairiepiss]

I'm glad this one popped up again. I searched for this thread the other day.
I was wondering do you get any off flavors from the hulls?

[mbz250sl]

Nchooch - I'm working on your tried and true recipe and really enjoy it - until I can build up some stock Ive ben adding a little sugar to boost my yields - just went from the mash tun to fermentation on the grain - was going to piggyback on the grain once the fermentation is complete and I'm ready to run it - plan is to strain off the grain, put the grain in a bucket add hot water and then add inverted sugar to get me back up to 25L - saw a post or two here they mentioned there would be enough yeast left on the grain to start back up again - does this sound correct? Am I going down the right path to piggyback or am I confused by reading too many different threads over the past few days?

[NcHooch]

I'm glad this one popped up again. I searched for this thread the other day.
I was wondering do you get any off flavors from the hulls?

I have a bottle of this white that is very tasty .... I wouldn't say it's just hulls, right? ... it's typically 12 pounds of various barley for a craft beer that's been mashed for an hour and sparged .....there's definitely some starch and flavor left, and the flavor comes across real nice once it's run . It would prolly oak real nice to an irish style whiskey, but I aint tried it cause it's so good white.

[NcHooch]

Nchooch - I'm working on your tried and true recipe and really enjoy it - until I can build up some stock Ive ben adding a little sugar to boost my yields - just went from the mash tun to fermentation on the grain - was going to piggyback on the grain once the fermentation is complete and I'm ready to run it - plan is to strain off the grain, put the grain in a bucket add hot water and then add inverted sugar to get me back up to 25L - saw a post or two here they mentioned there would be enough yeast left on the grain to start back up again - does this sound correct? Am I going down the right path to piggyback or am I confused by reading too many different threads over the past few days?

thanks mbz
well typically, this was done with grain out of the mashtun , not grain out of a fermenter.
But there's no reason you couldn't give it a run with grain out of the fermenter...
you'll need to keep the heat down if you want to keep the yeast healthy (under 95)
and remember that the grain's gonna be somewhat sour from the ferment.
also keep in mind that the grain'll be double-spent after mashing and then fermenting .

[Barney Fife]

I was wondering do you get any off flavors from the hulls?

I never thought about it, so thinking back, I have to say the answer is a definite "no". And more interestingly, the flip-side of the coin might be that the grain and hulls -add- good flavor, because I've noted more than once that, at least in the white, the "sugarhead" version was tastier than the original mash, once distilled.

Also, remember that nearly all commercial distillers ferment, and distill, on the grain. Nobody's complaining of "off-flavors" when they buy a bottle of mufti-hundred dollar whiskey.....

[mbz250sl]

Thanks NcHooch - good thing I've started reading these post multiple times and asking more questions as i learn - looking for a good neutral spirit that isn't all sugar and thus thought the piggy back idea seemed like a good way to recycle and make me feel likel neutral wasn't all sugar - does the grain lose that much flavor/starch/sugar during the ferment - please excuse my lack of scientific knowledge as I just jumped into all grain recently - figured fermenting on the grain was more for convenience since it is a pain to separate prior to adding the yeast - will go reading, but what recipe are you using for your neutral spirits?

Greatly appreciate the sharing of knowledge

[Prairiepiss]

Thanks both NCHooch And Barney for the response. What got me thinking about it was the fact that everything you see for homebrew says the hulls can give you off flavors with temps. And fermenting on grains. But you don't see it much on this side. Well maybe the temp thing. But soon I will doing some heavy experimenting with it.

[NcHooch]

I don't know how Barney feels, but my guess is that the beer mash and sparge prolly takes about 80% of the starch and flavor out of the grain ...so, whatever's left goes in your piggyback recipe.

I typically don't go for a neutral , I just go for light flavor washes if I'm not making whiskeys ...
Gerber, Allbran, piggyback, and UJSSM all make nice white dawg.

Prairie, I hear ya about the off flavors for hulls, but isn't bran just grain hulls? ....I wouldn't make a beer out of bran, but Rad's allbran recipe sure is tasty ...I guess it doesn't seem to matter in distilling.

hope that helps

[Prairiepiss]

The bran is the outer layer of the grain itself. The hulls are the protective layer on the outside of the grain. The part that can be peeled off. Or falls off when rubbed in you hand.

[kiwistiller]

I like this idea . I throw away so much grain... Would like chooks but them next door won't like that. Last night I made chocolate chip cookies with spent grain from a porter, but it only uses a few cups... Based on what unboiled grain mash does at my place, it must get a raging lacto ferment going after a while? It occurs to me that with the right timing, you could sparge a grainbed with hot backset as a second batch sparge....

I've been doing a similar thing at the moment with cider. Got given a trailer load of apples, so I built a cider press and got going. In the last few batches through the press, I've been saving the pulp, and chucking it into big bins with some extra pectinase, dextrose to bump it to 8% plus whatever is left in the pulp, and a neutral wine yeast. After leaving it to ferment for a month, there isn't actually much pulp left. I've been feeding it back to the press before distillation (because why not?), but I would have no worries distilling this on the pulp in a keg on a burner. Tastes pretty good white. Not quite as strong in flavour as the all-fruit stuff but pretty good nonetheless.

Brewing tonight so I'll have a play around with this.

[Prairiepiss]

I never even thought of sparging with some backset. That sounds like it could make it even more interesting. More stuff on the todo list. That freakin list is getting to long.

[maheel]

thanks astro for dragging this thread into 2012

now it's got me thinking...

what if once you have mashed you beer and drained the mash etc for beer you
1. add back some water to the mash tun and then add some un-malted corn / barley / wheat / boiled rice / sweet feed /or ?
2. let the original enzymes go to work on the "new mash" for a while
3. drain this / sparging etc maybe a bit of sugaz if you want
4. ferment this ?

will the enzymes still be working ?

i am just putting together a HERMS beer rig and can see myself having a play with that hot grain after the next beer mash-in

[NcHooch]

sounds like you're over-thinkin it Maheel...
Heat slowly denatures enzymes, so I wouldn't expect much by throwing any sort of unmalted grain in.

this is a good way to quickly get a sugar mash goin when you do an all-grain beer.
Quick, easy, and makes a damn fine spirit.

[Prairiepiss]

I was thinking about maybe adding some cracked corn to the mix. But I wasn't thinking for conversion. I was thinking just for some flavor kick. To make it more of a faux American whisky. To change it up a little from time to time.

But I'm with you NC don't think you would get much conversion if any. At that point.

[heartcut]

Just ran some strong ale piggyback that tasted so good, I wanted to do it again. Siphoned hot dunder (without burning my lips) on top of the spent grain after milling a couple lbs of pale malt on top of the pile (just for added flavor). I tasted it after it sat for an hour and enough conversion had occured to make it taste like sweet & sour sauce. Going to have to try the same thing on top of some malt and cracked corn. Hmmm.

[rgarry]

I usually do batch sparing and finish off at a higher temp (160-170), that would inactivate the enzymes. I usually just dissolve some sugar into water, dump on grains, pitch yeast. I used to invert the sugar and boil away but found it unnecessary. I do heat the water enough to kill the bad stuff. If you don't do your final spar get higher temp, the enzymes will still be there.

[NcHooch]

I usually do batch sparing and finish off at a higher temp (160-170), that would inactivate the enzymes. I usually just dissolve some sugar into water, dump on grains, pitch yeast. I used to invert the sugar and boil away but found it unnecessary. I do heat the water enough to kill the bad stuff. If you don't do your final spar get higher temp, the enzymes will still be there.

X2
One of the best tasting and most reliable sugar washes I've made (for only the cost of a bag of sugar).
I'm going to make a brown ale tomorrow ....might just hafta make some piggyback too !

[heartcut]

That strong ale piggyback #2 soured and was cloudy as hell. Damn it's good- barley with sour corn flavors without the corn. Wish I could claim it was planned, but I'm going to do it again. Going to do some testing tonight.

[heartcut]

On jar 7 and the flavor is unlike anything I've ever had. It's just a little after 10:00 and it's hard to stop tasting.

[NcHooch]

On jar 7 and the flavor is unlike anything I've ever had. It's just a little after 10:00 and it's hard to stop tasting.

lol ...gettin after it early there HC ?

[RevSpaminator]

Wow. I just stumbled across this. What a freakin' great idea. No matter how complete I try to convert, I know there is a bunch of goodness left in the grain that I usually just throw away. I'll have to play with this a bit. Besides, now I'll have an excuse to make beer for friends who've been complaining that I only distill anymore.

[NcHooch]

Give it a try RS ...it always turns out nice for me.

I'm getting ready to do a 10 gallon batch of IPA ...I recon I might just hafta make a batch of piggy too

[NcHooch]

brewed a 10 gal batch of IPA today, so at the end of the brew session, I took 1/3 of the grain (~9 lbs) and mixed it with 2 gals water and 8 lbs sugar. .....disolved well, and topped up to 7 gals total. Here piggy piggy

the OG if the IPA was 1.069 .... I didn't measure the piggyback but I suspect about the same.

[Durace11]

This is like a Parti-gyle wash. So many great ideas on this forum and another great way to recycle all that spent grain for all the AG homebrewers.

[RevSpaminator]

As long as it makes good likkur!

[heartcut]

I'm running a piggy from a strong Belgian, has as much flavor as an AG light malt. Gonna have to check it again to make sure. Good way to spend the morning.

[NcHooch]

Damn, i gotta telll yall, every time I do a run of this, I'm amazed at the product ...the hearts are clean and have a nice hint of barley ...might actually be great on oak , but I've never done any because it's so good white. reminds me of an expensive vodka. the last one was from the grain of and IPA ...but they've all been equally good.

[Barney Fife]

Glad everyone's enjoying their piggy-back whiskies! Me, well..., my wife took a liking to my spent grain and makes bread, cookies, and muffins with it, so I rarely get to "keep" my spent grain! The upside is that spent-grain bread is uber-excellent! And now i have a good excuse to do all-grain whiskey again....

One-Bullet Barney; always the optimist!