Home Distiller

I think its like 2.5% a year average for a 53 gallon barrel.

Lets hope my math is ok....

So over 18 years thats a large amount
2.5% loss per year
Year Gallons
1 : 51.69
2 : 50.41
3 : 49.16
4 : 47.95
5 : 46.76
6 : 45.61
7 : 44.48
8 : 43.38
9 : 42.31
10 : 41.26
11 : 40.24
12 : 39.25
13 : 38.28
14 : 37.33
15 : 36.41
16 : 35.51
17 : 34.63
18 : 33.77

So after 18 years there is only about 33.77G left in the barrel.

B

You are right.
This is one reason, why the 18year old Abelour costs 70€ and the 10yo only 35€ in my country. Each barrel gives either 41.26gal 10yo (or 33.7gal 18yo. (And of course time is money and of course the market determines the price.)

And it's the main reason, that the 18yo has more aroma, because it has been concentrated in the barrel. The aroma of the 10yo were concentrated by 53/41.26 = 1.28 = +28%, of the 18yo by 53/33.7 = 1.57 = +57%. And not only the oak aroma but also the grain aromas. So more oak is no complete substitute for more aging, because it only rises the oak aroma but not the grainy ones. Only the headsy aromas were reduced while aging, so perhaps a 10yo is too sharp or a 18yo too mellow.

Of course this is still much simplified. And the numbers can vary much.

But my conclusion is, if I want a between oak and grain balanced whisky:
- The amount of heads I don't cut will determine more the character than the quality of the aged whisky (within limits).
- The ratio between grain aroma and tails has to be high, both will get concentrated. Hopefully the tails age out faster than they were concentrated.
- Not too much oak, because it gets also concentrated. And you could always add sticks into the barrel or more sticks into the aging jar after a while, if you see it will turn out too light.

And it's a good lesson for aging malt whisky to look at one, which is not colored with caramel. The most ones are colored. Especially the ones without sherry barrel would look very light without it. A famous non colored non sherry example is Ardbeg Ten.

Barreled up a batch of corn malt bourbon.
I found a very nice piece of 1-1/4" thick 1/4 sawn oak, about 9" wide and 8' long. I can cut barrel heads from it in one piece.

Filled it up with almost 6 quarts, bashed in the plug, will open it up next spring.
Not looking to store this for more than a year, so I also tossed a couple toasted/charred sticks in with it, too.

Starting out with 1.35 kg of whiskey. Will check weight each month.

MichiganCornhusker wrote:Barreled up a batch of corn malt bourbon.
I found a very nice piece of 1-1/4" thick 1/4 sawn oak, about 9" wide and 8' long. I can cut barrel heads from it in one piece.

Filled it up with almost 6 quarts, bashed in the plug, will open it up next spring.
Not looking to store this for more than a year, so I also tossed a couple toasted/charred sticks in with it, too.

Starting out with 1.35 kg of whiskey. Will check weight each month.

Bravissimo! It looks beautiful! I'll be interested to hear how the tannins are after a year, too.

I don't wanna derail this thread, but why is there so much talk of heads here. Are you guys not making tight cuts on the whiskey you intend for aging?

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Hillbilly Popstar wrote:I don't wanna derail this thread, but why is there so much talk of heads here. Are you guys not making tight cuts on the whiskey you intend for aging?

Others will correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that the longer you intend to age, the wider the cuts should be. Headsy hearts and tailsy hearts develop into pleasing complexities over long aging under the right conditions. But maybe I'm crazy and that's all total BS.

Badmotivator wrote:

Hillbilly Popstar wrote:I don't wanna derail this thread, but why is there so much talk of heads here. Are you guys not making tight cuts on the whiskey you intend for aging?

Others will correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that the longer you intend to age, the wider the cuts should be. Headsy hearts and tailsy hearts develop into pleasing complexities over long aging under the right conditions. But maybe I'm crazy and that's all total BS.

No. That's 100% true. But more heads or more tails? What ages out more? Each aging technic acts different. For sure there is a difference in heads aging, if you use thin or thick wood for your bad-obama-barrel , or if you have a closed or open jar for sticks aging.

Ok, thanks for the heads up (pun not intended).

I had read elsewhere that if you intend an earthy flavor like in many scotches you should dig deeper into the tails and if you intend for a more fruity/floral profile like with rum, you dig deeper into the heads.

At any rate this just adds one more level of complexity and control to my product. I love it!

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Hillbilly Popstar wrote:I don't wanna derail this thread, but why is there so much talk of heads here. Are you guys not making tight cuts on the whiskey you intend for aging?

As far as commercial distilleries are concerned, alcohol is alcohol and the bean counters, and TTB here in the US, want to sell or tax every proof gallon distilled... We, as hobbyists, answer to ourselves and therefore can make as tight or wide of cuts as we care to live with... We can retain as much or as little headache in our blended spirits as we desire... Or we can omit everything but the clean crisp hearts... We have options...

An interesting learning tool is to acquire a small bottle of unaged white spirit from one of the big guys. Examples I've acquired are the readily available Buffalo Trace rye and wheat mashes. Compare them to the various aged versions of the new make. Sample side by side, new make vs aged. Think about aging time. Compare to your own new make. It's quite interesting and not exactly what I was expecting. I tend to revisit these bottles of new make when doing my own cuts. I think it helps keep things in perspective.

buflowing wrote:An interesting learning tool is to acquire a small bottle of unaged white spirit from one of the big guys. Examples I've acquired are the readily available Buffalo Trace rye and wheat mashes. Compare them to the various aged versions of the new make. Sample side by side, new make vs aged. Think about aging time. Compare to your own new make. It's quite interesting and not exactly what I was expecting. I tend to revisit these bottles of new make when doing my own cuts. I think it helps keep things in perspective.

How much do you think BT ages their white?

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Are you sure the white dog is the same they normal age in barrels? I read somwhere about another big distillery, they distill it seperate with stricter cuts. I forgot, where.

When I was at BT, they told me it was the same as what is put in the barrels and it is not aged before bottling. I did taste mash #1 right at the spirit safe and as I recall it was not noticeably different. This was information from a guide that has been there many years and is on the tasting panel. I dont' take any of this as fact, just what I was told.

Considering, that the big brands never gave infos without forcing them by the laws, I think, a spirit with good cuts in combination of a selling "moonshine" image is the way they have to go or another brand makes the profit.

A few examples:

-It needed a long time, until the distillers had to write it on the bottles (at least in Europe), if they color their whisky with caramel. Now we know, the most malt whisky is colored.

-We still don't have a proof, that JD and JB adding enzymes for converting the grain. We know it, but you will not find a proof.

-Search infos about the malt they use. Google gibberellic malt. You find much scientific stuff. But google gibberellic malt with JB or JD. You will find nothing.

-Search infos about barrels. You will find infos like, JD toast for 4h at 450F before charring. Everyone who tried this in his kitchen and compared the resulting color of the wood with JD chips or blocks, knows, that this info is bullshit.

-Woodford advertises with "potstill distilled". But it's not easy to find out, which of their spirits is really potstilled or at least, if the advertised as potstilled whiskey is 100% potstilled or a part of it were buyed from another distillery using continous distillation.

There is no place in our economy for someone using not all legal tricks.
Sorry for being off-topic...

Remember those wine barrel staves? I got a few Badmo Barrels made from some. The wood is French oak, from a Mondavi winery, used 7 years, or so says the seller.

Chopped, steamed, pressed flat:
Barrels made and marked:

The cave is really coming along:

Those wine barrel heads look great!
In your research have you learned anything about different porosities of different species of wood?

I'm thinking about making a head from cherry, and another one from maple, both 1/4 sawn, but I'm a little concerned about giving easy access to the angels, especially with the cherry because it just feels lighter.

MichiganCornhusker wrote:Those wine barrel heads look great!
In your research have you learned anything about different porosities of different species of wood?

I'm thinking about making a head from cherry, and another one from maple, both 1/4 sawn, but I'm a little concerned about giving easy access to the angels, especially with the cherry because it just feels lighter.

Thanks! My wine guy loves the look of the old weathered oak and the hoop marks.

I haven't read anything very specific about relative porosity except the general idea that oak is preferred because tyloses something something something. My guess is that 1 inch of oak loses the same as, say, 1.2 inches of cherry and 1.3 inches of maple. Or whatever. If (when!) I was going to make barrel heads from woods other than oak I will just plan on going thicker than oak. I hope you go first, though.

Hmm...
You'd think the loss of oak would be greater due to the open grain structure. Cherry has a very tight grain.

Jesus turned water into wine, we turn wine into shine.

Oak is used cause of its grain structure. I believe maple is open pored (gonna be generous to the angles), cherry not sure about.

Sugar maple is much tighter grain than soft maple even though its still considered a hardwood. Sugar maple grain is pretty dense.. I would say a little more dense than cherry.. Both Sugar maple and cherry are pretty hard. But I feel on average sugar maple is the hardest of them all.

Hardest wood that grows around here is ironwood. will make your saw spark if you try to cut it if its too dry.. OMG its hard to work with.

I have some sugar maple, must get some and try it on some whiskey... its all air dried and about 10-15 years old also... HMMMM Maybe some Maple smoked whisky on maple with some maple syrup mixed in... hmmmmm Not enough smoke to know its there just complement the whiskey with a very light maple smoke undertone. The trick is how much... I was thinking barley, wheat, oat and maybe 2-3% rye be nice and mellow....

B

Just a thought,
So how much of an influence do you think humidity plays on aging? Could it be helpful in distress aging? Do you think the barrel heads would hold up to temperature and humidity changes? I am build a large cold smoker (using an old warming cabinet) and a sausage curing chamber. I was thinking a set up like this could be used to distress age the barrels. You could place the barrels in the warmer for a period of time and then move in to the curing chamber to cool. It may be worth an experiment.
Medstiller

Medstiller wrote:Just a thought,
So how much of an influence do you think humidity plays on aging? Could it be helpful in distress aging? Do you think the barrel heads would hold up to temperature and humidity changes? I am build a large cold smoker (using an old warming cabinet) and a sausage curing chamber. I was thinking a set up like this could be used to distress age the barrels. You could place the barrels in the warmer for a period of time and then move in to the curing chamber to cool. It may be worth an experiment.
Medstiller

The only thing that I've heard that ambient humidity has an effect on is the rate of water loss from the barrel, which is possibly the smallest part of the set of effects which we call "aging". (The others that come to mind being alcohol loss, loss of more volatile components, oxidation and other chemical changes, addition of flavors from the wood, "filtering" or adsorption by the char of undesirable big molecules).

These barrel heads would almost certainly hold up to humidity changes. I bet I could take a full barrel from 0% RH to 100% RH and back again and the head wouldn't fail.

I have noticed one or two of my barrels weep a few drops after certain changes in ambient temperature, but I think even commercial casks do that. My newer barrels (made using up-to-date methods) have not yet shown the weeping.

Here's what the weeping looks like: The spirit weeping out carries with it, and deposits, this amazing tar-like stuff. It's sweet and smoky and fascinating. You might describe it as concentrated bourbon essence.

OMG, I was searching for "gibberellic" and this thread came up.
WOW, nice work Badmotivator. I've learned a lot of different things from this thread.

I'm a new kid on the block, but wow so much creativity and thinking outside the box around here.
Hats off to all of you!

Bamo, awesome product here! I genuinely think you have something you can take to market. I myself will be trying this in the near future. Thanks for laying this out for me. I look forward to see more post on this, especially abv and volume loss over time.

Hope to see your product on amazon soon

Fart Vader wrote:OMG, I was searching for "gibberellic" and this thread came up.

Dude, that was Der Wo! I don't even know what the hell he's talking about!

Fart Vader wrote: WOW, nice work Badmotivator. I've learned a lot of different things from this thread.

I'm a new kid on the block, but wow so much creativity and thinking outside the box around here.
Hats off to all of you!

Mtez44 wrote:Bamo, awesome product here! I genuinely think you have something you can take to market. I myself will be trying this in the near future. Thanks for laying this out for me. I look forward to see more post on this, especially abv and volume loss over time.

Hope to see your product on amazon soon

You guys are very nice. I really appreciate your kind words. I'm pretty proud of the idea and the development and the realization. The thing that excites me the most is that Badmotivator Barrels enable home distillers to age their spirits traditionally, so to speak, at very very low cost, and using their own materials, tools, and labor.

I may sell these to the public in the future. There are a couple of investment hurdles in my way on there, though. Who knows? Time will tell.

If you do make your own, I would be extremely grateful if you'd share a picture, thoughts, problems, improvements, etc. We will grow together.

No spigots. By design.

Very nice Michigan.
You're all over this forum. Do you have time for a day job?

Fart Vader wrote:Very nice Michigan.
You're all over this forum. Do you have time for a day job?

ADHD.

Very nice MCH....

Why no spigots Temptation