Stop cutting for heads while distilling!

[OtisT]

I’ll just reply to your post, not the whole thread, that you should consider making head cuts by taste, not smell. Just my personal opinion that I find this more definitive/repeatable than cuts by smell.

[Rrmuf]

Thanks!!!! I will.

[Saltbush Bill]

Different strokes for different folk......my nose works fine.....I'll trust my nose for cutting heads over taste any day. Think it depends on the person.....is there a right or wrong way?

[NZChris]

I cut by smell making neutrals. Flavored products I cut by tasting prospective blends.

[LWTCS]

I've definitely noticed an in between jar that tasted much better than it smelled. But that's coming from a place where the dead center cut was the standard.
My standard has definitely evolved.
I reckon everybody's does.....

[OtisT]

Ya, different strokes.... and please consider my advice in the context of the question asked. The poster In the previous message I replied to said he could not tell a heads cut point by smell and asked for advice, so I gently recommended he consider trying by taste. I smattered my response with “just my opinion” and such language so as not to envoke the wrath of others more experienced than me. I use my nose too at times and wasn’t trying to imply there was a right way. Otis

[shadylane]

All Ya got to do is fill a jar up partway and do it again.
The fun part is what you blend together.
I kinda like to keep all the cuts separate of a while.
Just to see what I have, before permanently putting it all together

[nerdybrewer]

90% plus of what I've ever made is rum.

Thought I had to get that out of the way.

With rum I plan to put it all in a once used Bourbon barrel and leave it there as long as I can stand it.

I do a stripping run to get all my low wines collected.
Then I add some wash left over from my ferment to my boiler with my low wines and do my "1.5" (or 1.3 or whatever it turns out to be) run.

I take off fores and keep them for parts wash or charcoal lighter.

Then I collect down to oily tails and turn off the still.

All that goes into the barrel, for however long it takes to make the magic.

And magic it is, my fervent belief is that 99% of the magic happens in the barrel - maybe what we do accounts for a little more I don't know, seems like what comes out is that much better than what goes in.

[googe]

I have always struggled with the end of heads into hearts, taste does it for me. Heads, lip, tounge burn, hearts, back of throat, warming sensation.

[Rrmuf]

+1 googe: ... and by the time you get to tail cuts, you just don't care as much

[tiramisu]

Read this thread tonight. Not sure whether I learned anything. But I have a lot of questions.
Changing flavor through modifying the fermentation process seems pretty obvious.

Differing ester production at different temperatures within the yeast range, initial SG seems like it could be a thing. Worth playing with. PH again probably worth playing within a narrow range. Secondary fermentation. Yeast types. Bacterial infection. Grain Bill. The original objective of reducing heads seems almost irrelevant to the questions of what esters are created when at what temperature, PH, etc. Flavours that you are targetting for a rum are different than those you are targeting for an Irish whiskey. Any biochemists in the house that have published on this kind of thing?

[Rrmuf]

So, a year on from when I ran into this thread, I do find I am making cuts for neutrals based on smell. And I do find that 50% of the neutral runs, my heads are really narrow. For reference, my washes are always between 8.5 & 9.5% ABV.

[bluc]

I cut by smell and taste.
I definately aim for zero heads or tails I used to cut EVERY run into seperate jars and only keep what I class as hearts(i have experimented blending some late heads early tails. It aint for me.)
After quite a while I developed my smell and taste. I now often do a large container hearts with few jars either side of the large jar.
With whiskey whisky On my plater I often find a half stubbie of very grainy flavour right before tails. That is about as deep as I go..

[Rrmuf]

I definitely rely more on smell. I will try a bit on tongue, lips. I also find that the astringency in the heads sometimes will only become apparent with a day of rest under seal. I did take a narrow heads cut this last batch, mostly based on an abundance of prudence and absolutely no greed. It was clean and would have felt like a waste were it not for the fact that I can re-distil in my next stripping run.

[fzbwfk9r]

Just a thought
if 90% of the budget is spent on fermentation
and 10% spent on distillation

what the heck do they do with the booze??? pour it on the floor?

the math does NOT add up!
(just say'n)

[Metalking00]

I think that the idea of trying to have the best ferment possible to prevent unnecessary bad stuff from being made is right, but Odin, when you say a pro distiller often does a 3-5% fores cut based on charge volume, what volume would that be? If you did a 5% "fores" cut on 100l of low wines that would be 5 liters. Seems to me that would be just grouping "fores" and a part of "heads" and simply calling it fores, and chooing a somewhat arbitrary stopping point to give a desired cost/quality balance to the final product. If i seperated the first 10-15% of my usual runs as "fores", i may not be making a "heads" cut, but i would still be doing it- just by a different name, no?

Edit: didnt realize i missed many, many pages of the thread....will go back and read them

[shadylane]

Edit: didnt realize i missed many, many pages of the thread....will go back and read them

It's not a sin to bring the discussion back to the OP's question or statement.

[Rrmuf]

A couple things related to the last few comments:

1. "What do they do with the booze": There are numerous topics on what to do with the foreshots, heads and tails (and backwash) so search that, but the bottom line is if it is unpleasant volatiles and not clean spirit then it's a by-product: we don't drink it.
2. 90% on fermentation / 10% on distillation is a purported equipment budget and not really a % of the resulting run: Odin's and others point is there is ALOT more attention to mashing and fermenting required to make a great tasting spirit.
3. Yes: 5% of 100l is 5l.

Odin suggests in this topic that you can minimize (or even eliminate) a heads cut which I found interesting because I was religiously taking a heads cut off my neutral run on a sugar wash eventhough it seemed like I was cutting off clean spirit ... then I run into this thread that said maybe that is not necessary! I do a foreshot sacrifice for sure! Now, I do make smaller samplings at the beginning. BUT if after a day there is *any* question on whether a jar is clean, I pitch it into the feints jar anyways.

... and now I am much more motivated about taking care of my fermentations!

[NormandieStill]

One of my planned process changes is a temperature controlled fermentation cabinet, but this will have to wait until I have a dedicated space for fermenting and stilling. My ferments are currently in the house, which doesn't vary much from day to day in the winter, but tends to have larger swings in the summer.

And following recommendations on here I now dry my teabags and then soak them in fores as a firelighter. This winter I've not had bought any firelighters, and I find that the teabags light the fire faster than the commercial ones I was using.

[EricTheRed]

Yup and your welcome

And following recommendations on here I now dry my teabags and then soak them in fores as a firelighter. This winter I've not had bought any firelighters, and I find that the teabags light the fire faster than the commercial ones I was using

[Rrmuf]

Yes. Temperature control for fermentation is a big improvement depending on your environment (like mine). I just use a seedling heater .... and I think it's the one place where we can honestly recommend a PID temperature controller. . It should, in theory, help reduce your heads.

There are a few other threads on uses of foreshots. Maybe the teabag firelighter is a new one to be added there.

[Steve Broady]

In the spirit of threads like this, I am trying an experiment. I made a sugarhead on a bourbon mash, and let it sit for a good couple months (mostly out of necessity, partly in hopes that the yeast would clean things up over time). I stripped it on my new continuous stripper, and then diluted it down to about 15% and ran it again. No heads cut, no fores, nothing. I kept everything that came out.

It pains me a little to do that. I was more than a bit hesitant. But.. nothing ventured, nothing gained. So let’s see what happens! The spirit came off at 66%. Some I saved white for comparison, most got diluted to 58% and stored in glass with some toasted and charred barrel staves. We shall see what happens innocent the next year or two. I will say that even the white spirit, when diluted to 40%, was about less bad than I expected. I’ve had worse, at least.

[subbrew]

In the spirit of threads like this, I am trying an experiment.

Steve,

What yeast did you use and where you able to keep the temp in the happy band for that yeast?

I think temp control is a bigger factor than clean up time so wondering if that factor was removed as a variable. I used US-05 on a 38 gal batch. I cooled it to 68 degrees for pitching but just internal generated heat soon had the temp over 80, well out of the 66 to 74 degree range that US-05 likes. I didn't have a way to cool it. That batch had the largest heads cut I have experienced. I usually get 2.5 to 3 gallons of hearts from a 38 gal batch. I had under 2 gallons of hearts from that batch.

[Steve Broady]

In the spirit of threads like this, I am trying an experiment.

Steve,

What yeast did you use and were you able to keep the temp in the happy band for that yeast?

It started out life as S-04, but I’ve been propagating it for well over a year so who knows what it is now. Thigh like you, I was not able to keep it in the low temp range that S-04 likes. The bourbons I’ve made with the same yeast and process have not had unusually high heads cuts. In fact, they seemed remarkably clean. I won’t venture to guess why, because I freely admit that I don’t know enough.

[Yummyrum]

I can’t believe I haven’t seen this old Topic here before .

Anyway , I find it an interesting one .
First up , when I am making a Neutral and run it through my reflux still , even if I have the best fermentation and use Shadys Sugar Shine , I will still have several jars of heads that are clearly not Neutral .So no way will I be keeping them in the mix .

However , getting onto Rum . I have always taken a reasonable heads cut . Even though I always felt that it was strange as none of the commercial guys do. Heads have always had the burn and I could taste similarities in the Rum heads as I could detect in Neutral heads . So I always left them out . Now, I don’t get headaches like a lot do but regardless , I always made a big heads cut especially on the Pot still . When I was using the Plated still , I still ended up with a fair amount even though it tended to compress them way more than the Potty could .
Switching to using a Thumper , I had started to realise that maybe I was rejecting too many jars and started including a few more , but it felt like I was going against everything we do here .

So roll on last week and I git to use my Dual Thumper ( retort) setup .I’m lining up the jars and they all smell so good except maybe the first ( fores) and the second .

So I decide to make a blend including all the jars I would have normally rejected and Woow . Really nice new make Rum and seriously not really the burn over all that I would have expected .

Did this on a few runs and yup , I’m converted . As far as Rum goes , from now on , I’ll be ditching the first jar and keeping everything until I detect tails .

At this stage I still don’t now if there is any magic in what the Dual thumper does . I’m wondering if all these years I was being too tight , even on the Pot still , I may have ended up with a better product if I had kept the heads in the mix .

This a pic of what I ended up with the other day . One jar of Fores/heads , the next two are hearts cut and the last two are High/Low Wines ….. basically tails

[Bolverk]

One thing that's not really mentioned here that i saw (because its not the point of the thread) is distilling to minimize the need for a heads cut.

Talking about pot or pot thumper here...

By running "low and slow" through your "heads" will help with separation, then you can speed back up for your hearts, then slow down again when you hit your tails to extend the hearts cut a bit longer.

(This is why pros are so protective of their cut points)

[MooseMan]

One thing that's not really mentioned here that i saw (because its not the point of the thread) is distilling to minimize the need for a heads cut.

Talking about pot or pot thumper here...

By running "low and slow" through your "heads" will help with separation, then you can speed back up for your hearts, then slow down again when you hit your tails to extend the hearts cut a bit longer.

(This is why pros are so protective of their cut points)

Yes I do this on a pot still run religiously Bolverk, and assumed that most people do?

Heat up hard and fast until I feel the base of the riser getting too hot to keep my hand on, then drop to about 30% power. (2kw)
Take all temporary insulation off top of the still.
Drippy foreshots at very low power until I feel the nastiest is gone.
Slight power increase through heads, just about a solid stream.
As soon as it seems I'm in the last heads jars, power up to a solid stream and keep it there until I detect tails.
Back off again for a few jars of extra goodies, then switch to the feints corny and ramp back up to full blast to strip the rest.

On my most recent grain run, I extended the cuts well into tails and got probably an extra 2L at the end of the clean hearts cut, by backing off the power again.

[Bolverk]

Yes I do this on a pot still run religiously Bolverk, and assumed that most people do?

Heat up hard and fast until I feel the base of the riser getting too hot to keep my hand on, then drop to about 30% power. (2kw)
Take all temporary insulation off top of the still.
Drippy foreshots at very low power until I feel the nastiest is gone.
Slight power increase through heads, just about a solid stream.
As soon as it seems I'm in the last heads jars, power up to a solid stream and keep it there until I detect tails.
Back off again for a few jars of extra goodies, then switch to the feints corny and ramp back up to full blast to strip the rest.

On my most recent grain run, I extended the cuts well into tails and got probably an extra 2L at the end of the clean hearts cut, by backing off the power again.

My process is very similar to yours, but from what I see this is not really the norm. You see distilling YouTubers teaching to run fast for warm up, dial back to a steady stream at first drips, and as you go through the run you are slightly increasing power to maintain a consistent stream. I see a lot of guys doing it this way...

[Yummyrum]

Yes I do this on a pot still run religiously Bolverk, and assumed that most people do?

Heat up hard and fast until I feel the base of the riser getting too hot to keep my hand on, then drop to about 30% power. (2kw)
Take all temporary insulation off top of the still.
Drippy foreshots at very low power until I feel the nastiest is gone.
Slight power increase through heads, just about a solid stream.
As soon as it seems I'm in the last heads jars, power up to a solid stream and keep it there until I detect tails.
Back off again for a few jars of extra goodies, then switch to the feints corny and ramp back up to full blast to strip the rest.

On my most recent grain run, I extended the cuts well into tails and got probably an extra 2L at the end of the clean hearts cut, by backing off the power again.

My process is very similar to yours, but from what I see this is not really the norm. You see distilling YouTubers teaching to run fast for warm up, dial back to a steady stream at first drips, and as you go through the run you are slightly increasing power to maintain a consistent stream. I see a lot of guys doing it this way...

Thats all well and good . But the big question is , do you include the heads in the hearts cut or put them aside ?

[Bolverk]

Thats all well and good . But the big question is , do you include the heads in the hearts cut or put them aside ?

Lol fair point.... yes, i make a heads or first cut. it's generally only the the top 15% (fores/high heads) +/- and it's put aside for recycling.