New Take on a Great Design... ODs Magic Flute - Mark 2...

[olddog]

I'm not quite getting the new dephleg design. I see how it fits "inside" the tube now, but it's mentioned the dephelg is attached via tri-clamp above the top plate and vapor no longer goes up through the top. I'm not quite seeing that (ie., where does the vapor go if not up through the shotgun tubes in the dehleg?

The output is from the vapor chamber above the dephlegmater, it's just a straight takeoff 90 degrees to the column, many commercial builders like Carl and Holstien use this method.

The weir downcomer design again is used by commercial builders, and is designed to give a even flow across the plate, and virtually impossible to flood.

I would cut it down to 3 plates which could hold larger volumes to act more like thumpers

This could be achieved by raising the height of the weir to enable the plates to hold more liquid.
In my research on plates, I have seen examples where just a single larger bubble cap is used instead of multiple smaller ones, a single cap makes the plate construction simpler with less components.

In this example you can see the single bubble cap, the shotgun dephlegmater, and above the dephlegmater the vapor chamber with the laminair, which changes the vapor flow from turbulent to laminar for a better takeoff flow.


OD

[Centimeter]

Ok, this is getting out of hand old dog. I can understand the column, but an all copper boiler with a stainless port? Wher're you getting these fantastic materials? I could do what you're doing, but I'd have to employ the laser cutters downtown. Alright. I guess them's fight'n words. Get ready OD. You're about to see some serious outmatching going down-- American style. Some serious shit's being invoked right here!

[olddog]

Ok, this is getting out of hand old dog.

That's not my still Centimeter, thatá a photo of a Carl still.
I use information from the commercial builders and scale them down to hobby size.

I could do what you're doing, but I'd have to employ the laser cutters downtown.

I just use basic hand tools, but I do have a good 12 speed drill press, and a mini lathe, but no laser cutters.



OD

[Rum Bum]

I think the valves are gonna really make finding multiple sweet spots on the fly quite good.
Gonna help the whiskey guys land that barrel strength distillate. As far as I know current designs are rendering abv far too high for that heavier flavor that the old school potstillers prefer.

LWTCS that is the very reason I'm on the fence about building a flute. I consider myself an old school potstiller. I'm looking for barreling strength not 90%.

Though these designs are very impressive Samohon, it's obvious you've dedicated a lot of time and effort to put together this professional unveiling. I'm blown away and can't wait to see this put into copper.

OD I'd like to hear your opinion on the bubble cap vs perforated regarding flavor.

I would be fascinated to taste the difference myself, between the pref. and bubble cap. Maybe a side-by-side comparison of the two….

RB

[Centimeter]

Oh thank god. I was staying up pacing, thinking about spending so much money. Oh my goodness! No problem to match that. It's the copper boiler that gets me. I actually already had the laser cutters help with my project:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y26/Ce ... 41Edit.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I really dig the column idea. I hate to say that I've thought about doing this for ages, just never did it. Now it's out there so time to get going. I really do think this has a lot of merit as a whiskey still.

[olddog]

I'm blown away and can't wait to see this put into copper.

It's happening right now, here is the dephlegmater laminair, vapor chamber, and top plate assembly, and the 2"shotgun condenser. I will post more pics as I progress.

OD I'd like to hear your opinion on the bubble cap vs perforated regarding flavor.

The only other version of this still I have built was the 2 plate Prototype, which has now been sold to forum member Ben Cornish, It produced a nice flavorsome UJSSM with an output of 92ABV from a single pass at potstill speed. I can't give you a comparison with perforated plates, as the Magic Flute has 5 perforated plates compared with the 2 plates in the prototype so it's not a fair comparison.
The original Magic Flute will be offered for sale once I get the new version up and running.


OD

[radiatorboy]

what you plan to sell the holy grail of flutes

[kerinin]

Regarding the laminar fins... Laminar flow happens at Reynolds numbers below 2300 [1], and is determined by Re=V*4*A/v*P where

V: fluid velocity, I'll assume 5m/s
A: tube cross sectional area, those fins appear to be about 25mm x 50mm, so 0.00125m^2
P: Tube's wetted perimeter, using the above estimate .15m
v: fluid's kinematic viscosity. From the parent site [2] the viscosity of ethanol vapor is 108x10^-7 (kg/ms) while water vapor is 125x10^-7. The density of ethanol vapor is .0015 vs water at .001 (g/mL)

That gives us a Reynolds number (after some dimensional analysis) of Re=5(m/s)*4*.00125(m^2)/(108x10^-7(kg/ms) / .0015(g/mL) ) *.15m = 5,787

I'm using the kinematic viscosity of pure ethanol out of laziness. Anyway, what this seems to imply is that if the objective is to create laminar flow in the head, you might want to double the number of fins. Although I'm not really sure what you're gaining by forcing laminar flow in the head, if anything you *really* want turbulent flow in the condenser.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reynolds_number" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
[2] http://homedistiller.org/calcs/calc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[Samohon]

Heres the pdf for the making of the 2 types of plates. As stated in the document, there is probably more than one way to make these.
This is the method I will use unless OD, which I'm sure he will, shows me a different approach...

By the end of all these PDF's and images, anyone wanting to build one of these delicious stills will have a full and detailed set of instructions as well as a very highly detailed blueprint.

Heres the PDF...

Bubble Cap Plates.pdf

(820.49 KiB) Downloaded 1213 times

Next we will look at the laminair fins and the plate disabling system in more detail...

[Barney Fife]

I like the design so far, but those weir type downcomers... A simple 1/2" tube and 3/4" cap(or 3/8" tube and 1/2" cap) is way, way simpler and cheaper. Or am I missing something here?

[Samohon]

Its all about the speed that the liquid travels over and down the plated downcomer Barney...

I'm sure OD will elaborate on it, OD sent me a video of this being tested, I did'nt quite get it at first, but after a few viewings it clicked...

[Usge]

Might want to double check that last pdf download link samo.....I'm getting a "setup.exe" disguised as a .pdf from the link.

[blind drunk]

FYI -

Mine's fine, I get it as a PDF.

[Usge]

I got a file that says ".pdf" but it wont' open and says it's not a recognizable filetype. Then, when I right clicked on link and chose down load the (your file name.pdf)...I got the "setup.exe".

Just downloaded it again...got the pdf. Weird.

[Barney Fife]

I did'nt quite get it at first, but after a few viewings it clicked...

Ya might wanna post a link to the video, then, because i really don't "get it"... A downcomer's just a drain, set at a specific height to maintain a specific liquid level on the plate, no?

[Titus-a-fishus]

Hey Gents
Just wondering if when all of the build design has been discussed and worked out
Is there any chance there could be a seperate thread for the build details.
A locked thread that only OD and Samohon can add to.
That way it is concise and readable.
I am struggling to get throught the 94+ pages of the Flute thread.

This thread will no doubt get pretty big as well considering the amount of interest in the flute designs.

Also any chance of a diagram of the vapour path?
Also struggling with that.

Just a suggestion/request.

TAF

[LWTCS]

TAF
We have a read only.module/thread set up for all plans and diagrams.

Pretty sure Samohon will link every illustration to that thread

[olddog]

Ya might wanna post a link to the video, then, because i really don't "get it"... A downcomer's just a drain, set at a specific height to maintain a specific liquid level on the plate, no?

Unfortunately I can't post a link to this video, as it was sent to me as an email attachment by a third party. If anyone would like a copy of the video, PM me your email address and I will be glad to forward a copy to you.



OD

[Barney Fife]

How about explaining how it works, then? I think the overflow/weir thing has more than a few of us stumped.

[Prairiepiss]

+1 on barney fife's post.

[Rum Bum]

+2 on that

[Prairiepiss]

Wiers are common with commercial stills, they act as a dam / waterfall and once the plate is filled no vapor can pass. Wiers are almost impossible to flood. Very similar to a downcomer but liner instead of tubular.

I get that part. This is what I'm trying to figure out.

Its all about the speed that the liquid travels over and down the plated downcomer Barney...

By this statement I take it as the 1/2 downcomers being used in the other flute builds are not big enough? They need to flow faster? And what does this do to help the process? I was about to start on my plates. Was just trying to figure out if I could rearrange my plans to incorporate some of this thinking or close to it. And if it would be worth it to me.

[Barney Fife]

Very similar to a downcomer but liner instead of tubular

Linear, not liner.

DING!

Now I get it. I didn't see that the downcomer plate went all the way to the next plate, thus, being sealed off by the plate's liquid.

The only reason this plated downcomer system would be less prone to flooding would be because of its greater volume, but its volume is nearly identical to 3/4" tubing, therefor a 3/4" downcomer would handle roughly the same amount of liquid. I can easily see how in a commercial column, the volume of these plated downcomers(when scaled UP to the commercial column's dimensions) would quickly make much more sense than going to the equivalent pipe/tube size, since they'd be looking at huge downcomers that would take away from the available plate area, as well as add tremendous costs. But scaled down to our hobby still status, even at the 4" size in the drawings, there's not much advantage, unless one already has plenty of copper flat stock on hand. Otherwise, a short length of 3/4" copper, with slots cut in one end, will have a nearly identical surface area, thus volume handling ability as the plated downcomer.

And yes, having flooded my column twice now, I agree that we do indeed need some good flow from the downcomers. Mine are 3/8", and not nearly large enough. I was going to replace them with 1/2" ones, but now might as well go all the way up to 3/4' to be sure i'll never have to up-size them again.

By the way, if we need that much volume capacity to prevent flooding the plates, you'll also need to change the plans to use 3/4'" tubing and valves for the plates, otherwise, they may never truly be disabled. Otherwise, if the drainage system can't flow quickly enough(also consider that when disabling more than one plate, the flow through the whole drainage system will increase by the sum of the amount of plates disabled), the plates will retain liquid

[olddog]

It's not just about flooding, those who I have sent the video to will better understand. A conventional tubular downcomer can result in dead spots and pooling across the plate, with the curved profile at the bottom of the downcomer this is eliminated resulting in an even flow across the plate. This will give a better result in sending the undesirable liquid to the plate below while retaining the desirable liquid on the plate, this will result in a more accurate stacking for the column.


OD

[Barney Fife]

I see.. A small dam right next to the tubular downcomer, with the proper curvature and slots, should do the same, if this should indeed prove beneficial. Then again, how many of us have our columns very accurately plumbed, for every run? I bet most of our plates aren't dead-level, either.

Just trying to keep this thing simple enough for most of us to have a chance to build it, without getting too hung up on something that may not have too much of a bearing on the final performance. We don't all have your coppersmithing chops, OD!

[olddog]

Just trying to keep this thing simple enough for most of us to have a chance to build it

The original Flute was designed so that anyone with basic workshop tools could build it, this is why I kept the design to perforated plates as the are easy to make.
This is the next step with all the whistles and bells, feel free to use any feature to use in your existing builds if you don't want to go the whole hog.


OD

[condensificator]

awesome. that video was really neat to watch, and it has made me think about things in new ways. thanks for sharing OD!

[Rum Bum]

Great video OD, thanks, and thanks to the guy who emailed that to you! What's your prediction for the improvement in purity if you can send the "undesirables" back down the still???

What's that word for impossibly pure ethanol? How close will you be to that haha?

RB

[aqua vitae]

Is there any chance someone can upload the video somewhere (youtube.com etc) so it could easily be shared to all of us? Or is it copyrighted in some way?

[apollopimp]

here is the video for those that have not seen it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKNDVbQynqo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow