Malting corn question?

[Brendan]

No one in my family (I'm the fourth generation) ever used yeast in a mash

Well at least you'd never have a hangover!

[Prairiepiss]

The statement that a malted grain will ferment a wort. Is just an uneducated false statement.

The statement that a person fermented something without yeast. Is also an uneducated false statement. You have to have yeast to ferment. Whether its wild or store bought is what should be addressed.

And the statement that not using yeast stops the headaches. Well I already addressed part of that. And the headache part is taken out by making proper cuts. So again a uneducated false statement. Can there be less heads that cause headaches when fermenting with wild yeast? Is a question that is to broad to answer easily. So yes and no. Depends.

The statement that a malted grain will have wild yeast on it. That can ferment a wort. Is true. To a certain extent. Yes there may be some wild yeast on a malted grain. But if you mash that grain. The mashing temps will kill off any yeast present on that malt. Will the wort start fermenting on its own? Yes but not from the yeast that was on the malted grains. That was killed in the mashing process. It will start fermenting from the yeast that is present all around the fermenter. Or from the fermenter itself. In the case of wooden barrel fermenters. If it wasn't mashed in the barrel. Again heat would kill off any wild yeast. Where that fermenter is. Will dictate what wild yeast is collected. Generally it is thought that you will get a better strain from outside in nature. Where inside a home or garage. The air quality and environment doesn't support good healthy wild yeast. The season the yeast is collected plays a roll also. Not many yeast can survive the cold of winter. Or maybe the hottest summer day either. Areas like vineyards and orchards will produce good wild yeast. While a inner city backyard will not.

I'm getting way off topic here. And there are many threads about wild yeast. Here in the forums. Where you can get more info then you will ever need.

[scout]

Sorry Mr. Piss, I did not specify exactly how I set up my mash. I don't add my malt to a hot mash and yes I use wooden (oak to be accurate) barrels for mash, which have wooden lids that sit on the barrel rim and overhang about a half inch. I air dry my malts, and crush instead of grind them. Oh and yes I live in the woods not a city, just work a day job there. I meant that I don't add store bought yeast. Obviously you have to have yeast, if not, you don't get any alcohol. I totally agree with you on the hangover. I also use copper pot stills, made by me, with thump kegs (also oak). I didn't mean to offend anyone. Sorry if I did.

[Prairiepiss]

Didn't offend. And my post wasn't really towards you.
At least you understand what's going on. And sounds like a setup many of us would kill for.

[Truckinbutch]

Sorry Mr. Piss, I did not specify exactly how I set up my mash. I don't add my malt to a hot mash and yes I use wooden (oak to be accurate) barrels for mash, which have wooden lids that sit on the barrel rim and overhang about a half inch. I air dry my malts, and crush instead of grind them. Oh and yes I live in the woods not a city, just work a day job there. I meant that I don't add store bought yeast. Obviously you have to have yeast, if not, you don't get any alcohol. I totally agree with you on the hangover. I also use copper pot stills, made by me, with thump kegs (also oak). I didn't mean to offend anyone. Sorry if I did.

I don't think you offended anyone . It's just that your presentation left an area of potential confusion for newcomers . Like me , you assume that everyone should have some basic knowledge of what you are talking about .
Unfortunately , that is not always the case . We have to learn to be more basic to help new initiates .

[scout]

Very true Truckingbutch, I will be very specific from now on. I think it is more from growing up around it, and keeping family secrets all these years (I'm past the half way mark going by biblical life spans (120), LOL) I leave out things that I don't mean to. I'll get better at dispersal of experience, that's a promise.

[ewa lani]

Thanks for the advice. The 1/4 beer is something I've never thought of. Great idea. I'm going to take a small bucket of mash and a little burlap sack of malted corn, leave it in the Hawaiian woods for a few days and see what happens. If I can get some fermentation going I'll use in a larger batch. Thanks again

[MichiganCornhusker]

Depends on the recipe. However it is always just a part of my grain bill, typically between 30 and 40 percent.

I'm posting to this thread because is seems to have the most info specific to malted corn.
I'm working on my third run at malting corn and I'm finally having great success. My first try gave me about 1% of the corn sprouting, the second run about 60%. This run seems to be close to 90%, so I will soon have enough to actually do something with.

My question is about whether or not the malted corn adds to the sugars in the mash because it cannot be cooked first because it will denature the enzymes. I know that with unmalted corn it must be cooked to gelatinize the starches to make them available to enzymes for conversion to sugar. These temperatures are too hot for the malted corn, it will kill the enzymes. So, my understanding is that the malted corn is only used at mash temps of 140-150. This all makes sense to me, but, if not cooked first, will any of the starches in the malted corn be converted? Or, is the malted corn only providing the enzymes to work with the gelatinized non-malted corn? Most of what I've read seems to indicate that the malted corn is really only strong enough to convert itself, but Woodshed is using about 30%-40% malted and the rest un-malted. I've also read that you can just mash 100% malted corn without the need to cook it because the process of malting makes the corn starches available to the enzymes without the need to gelatinize first. Is there something about the malting process that makes the corn mashable without cooking?

My current plan is to use about 40% malted corn, 60% unmalted corn for an all corn batch. I'm going to cook the unmalted corn and then mash with the malted at 140-150 degrees. I'm thinking this will certainly produce sugars, but would I expect my yield to be based on the 60% unmalted, or the total amount of corn used, malted and unmalted, or somewhere in between?

[Axdelmar]

ok..my heads going to explode now...I'm stuck in the logic train where Michigan is. Trying to build a better mousetrap ain't easy.

[Usge]

If you are using malted grains...it's ready to go. Just bring it up to mash temps and mash it out. If you are using unmalted and malted grains....cook your unmalted grains first, then add the malted grains at mashing temps.

Way I learned it...malt corn can convert itself and not much more. So, if you plan on using it...best way is to use "all" malt corn and just mash it out. If you need to convert a lot of unmalted corn or other grains that you've cooked to render the starches out of, using barley malt or store bought enzymes probably a better way to go.

[MichiganCornhusker]

Thank you for the response, guys, I didn't know that the malting process could actually replace the cooking process for making corn starches available to enzymes. Since I asked this question I have finished drying some malted corn, and it tastes sort of sweet, and the kernels are much more brittle that unmalted,
Looking forward to getting it into a mash! Thanks again for the replies.

[Usge]

Some people take the time to remove all the little dried rootlets...some don't. Easiest way is after it dries good...put it in a pillowcase and shake/bang it around good. That will usually knock most of the little rootlets off if the are dry. If you need to separate it more, you can spread it out on a table and blow a fan across it while you move it around. After that, make sure to grind it up good before you try and mash it. Some people just grind it up rootlets and all.

And just to note, you "can" mash "green" malt (while it's still wet). It's a bit messy, and offers a slightly different taste than doing it dried.

[Seymourbeer4131]

Hi everyone here (I'm a newb to HD, but have some experience in mashing, and malting), this is the subject I am very much involved in right now, I have 20 lbs of corn successfully sprouted to 1 inch chitlets, ready to process, and this is my 3 batch.
So I have read everything I could find here so far, but have a 3 nagging questions. A portion of my 25 year homebrewing history might be some help in explaining, short version:
1 homebrew extract kit, 2 bulk bakers malt with added amylase and glen brew yeast, 3 all grain oatmeal, rice, and cream of wheat beers, and wines ( left over bulk cereal from summer camp I worked at), with use of BA 100, and GA 100 from mile hi distilling. Handmade double boiler providing long duration temperature controlled mash tun. 4 Now, malting and mashing my own grain.
Now the questions

1 leave the chitlets on or take them off, they dont taste bitter to me?
2 dry and toast the corn or use it green and as is right into mash tun
3 using ba100, and ga100 from mile high, I would mash at 155 degrees to reduce the starches first with ba100, then reduce temp to 135 for ga100 and convert to sugar. (That's their instructions) BUT, now I read while mashing with the malted grain I sprouted, do it the opposite, 135 degrees first , then 155 .
I apologize for any clumsiness concerning etiquette here, I am new an learning. I have read tons of the stuff here, and googled , and made phone calls, but it seems as there is many different ideas out there, some good, some bad?
I see questions 1 and 2 are more of a personal opinion according to what I read, but question 3 is the highest importance , thanks

[still_stirrin]

Now the questions:
1 leave the chitlets on or take them off, they dont taste bitter to me? <— they don’t add any starches to your grain, so they’re of little value to a mash. But, obviously they can be a PITA to remove, so the added value of getting rid of the rootlets is questionable...ie - value vs effort. Malt houses remove the chitlets during the drying process and because they process large amounts of malt for sale. The malts are not used immediately after malting, so the rootlets are best removed (they add weight to the product without potential sugar value).

2 dry and toast the corn or use it green and as is right into mash tun? <— Well, if you’re going to be using it all right away, then you probably wouldn’t need to kiln it. But, if you’ll store it, even for a week, you’ll want to kiln the malt so it doesn’t start to mold. Again, malt houses do kiln the malts to remove the moisture absorbed during the malting process. Molds LOVE to grow on moist, warm, grains that are kept in the dark (bucket or bin).

3 using ba100, and ga100 from mile high, I would mash at 155 degrees to reduce the starches first with ba100, then reduce temp to 135 for ga100 and convert to sugar. (That's their instructions) BUT, now I read while mashing with the malted grain I sprouted, do it the opposite, 135 degrees first , then 155 . <— Upward infusion is typically the way beers are brewed because the lower temperature enzymes prefer thicker mashes. The exception would be the high temperature enzymes used for helping to gelatinize corn. And for a saccarification temperature for distillation beers, shoot for a temperature between 145-150*F. It’ll be more fermentable, which is the objective of this hobby.

I apologize for any clumsiness concerning etiquette here, I am new an learning. I have read tons of the stuff here, and googled , and made phone calls, but it seems as there is many different ideas out there, some good, some bad? <— Of course, there are many opinions and we all have varying experiences. Plus, paradigms vary greatly. But what matters is whether or not you’re satisfied with your product, since this is a personal hobby.

Be safe, responsible, and discrete.
ss

[Seymourbeer4131]

Great response still stirring, thanks. So this batch I guess I will start at 140 and slowly raise the temp to 155 what do you think? Good idea?.
Sorry more hard to resolve questions
1 mash out, or not, (if I understand it correctly) , ie increase temp when total conversion is done to denature/ kill all enzymes, or leave it diastatic( spell, and application correct?) , all enzymes intact and ferment.
2 also I have read a few recipes that actually suggest fermenting everything, liquids and solids left without sparging and straining, to me that sounds like..."Oh the horror....", what kind of esters and off tastes await us ! Lol, but yet it's out there, is that really an idea of any sense? Some suggest that by using good old fashioned fleischman bread yeast in all that mixed mess one will actually increase their alcohol content and good flavors by fermenting left over elements of starch and sugars left over in the solids, again .. "oh the horror" .. but is there any truth to this idea too? I know in a good wine, I use whole grapes, skins, stems, and seeds for a week of contact time for unique flavor infusions, so maybe? (Ps I usually use red star blanc)
3 aerate or not. that is my last question...lol. I know again on a fruit and skin contact wine I push down the cap twice a day and aerate, but with a all grain wine or beer the oxidation word shines a red light. I read some recipes where they recomend pouring back and forth a few times to thoroughly aerate,...... again a very cynical look from me.
Thanks again for everyone who responds

[still_stirrin]

Great response still stirring, thanks. So this batch I guess I will start at 140 and slowly raise the temp to 155 what do you think? Good idea?. <— No. Mash at 145*F ONLY. You don’t need a rest at 155*F...that would make un-fermentable sugars...not what you need when distilling.

Sorry more hard to resolve questions
1 mash out, or not, (if I understand it correctly) , ie increase temp when total conversion is done to denature/ kill all enzymes, or leave it diastatic( spell, and application correct?) , all enzymes intact and ferment. <— No mash out required. That’s what you do when brewing an ale. Just hold your 145*F temperature until the iodine test shows you’re done. Then, rack to your fermenter.

2 also I have read a few recipes that actually suggest fermenting everything, liquids and solids left without sparging and straining, to me that sounds like..."Oh the horror....", what kind of esters and off tastes await us ! Lol, but yet it's out there, is that really an idea of any sense? <— Some do ferment “on-the-grain”. I don’t. But a lot of distillers do. The difference is more “grain flavor” in the beer if you leave the grain in. But, the disadvantage is that you’ll have to separate the solids from the beer before distilling. When lautering, you simply rack the cleared beer off the trub, just like when kegging a beer.

Some suggest that by using good old fashioned fleischman bread yeast in all that mixed mess one will actually increase their alcohol content and good flavors by fermenting left over elements of starch and sugars left over in the solids, again .. "oh the horror" .. but is there any truth to this idea too? I know in a good wine, I use whole grapes, skins, stems, and seeds for a week of contact time for unique flavor infusions, so maybe? (Ps I usually use red star blanc) <— Bread yeasts are great for making a full flavored spirit like a whiskey or a rum. They’re inexpensive to inventory and ferment well and fast. I use bread yeast for my bourbons all the time.

3 aerate or not. that is my last question...lol. I know again on a fruit and skin contact wine I push down the cap twice a day and aerate, but with a all grain wine or beer the oxidation word shines a red light. I read some recipes where they recomend pouring back and forth a few times to thoroughly aerate,...... again a very cynical look from me. <— Yeast need oxygen during their reproduction phase (budding). So yes, it is highly recommended to aerate the wort when you pitch the yeast. Also, if using dry yeast, be sure to rehydrate the yeast in warm water before pitching. Dry yeast is brittle and the cells can fracture if pitched into a high sugar wort. Rehydrating in warm water 30 minutes before you pitch the yeast will restore the cell walls and fill the cells with water so the osmotic pressure from a sugar solution won’t cause the cells to “explode”. Many distillers compensate for pitching dry yeast by over-pitching. It can work, but is probably not the best way to ferment the best products.

Thanks again for everyone who responds

Many practices are parallel to beer brewing in the homebrewing hobby. But some things are different when your product will be distilled. OK?
ss

[Seymourbeer4131]

Again thanks for accurate smart responses and your sensitivity to my ignorance Still Stirrin. Definitely some points for me to mull over in this new batch.
My last amyzaki , amylase saki came out quite good, but I had to boil down to increase the sugar to get above 8 percent alcohol.
True, when do I screen off the solids, doing a grain in ferment means I have to expose the fermented wort, or must to oxygen and potential vinegar bacteria more , trade off for more flavors?
Again thanks

[MichiganCornhusker]

...the malting process could actually replace the cooking process for making corn starches available to enzymes.

I need to jump in here to update my belief about this.

In my experience, corn malt still needs to be cooked at high temps, same as raw corn, if you want good conversion. Perhaps things are different if you let the acrospires grow past an inch long, but I usually only go 1/2” - 3/4”, using the malt mostly for flavor.

And if you’re using another source of enzymes anyway there is no reason not to boil the corn malt.

[still_stirrin]

I agree MCH.

I didn’t men to allude that corn doesn’t still need a high temperature step to prepare it for saccarification. I gelatinize the corn before I add it to the mash tun. Der Wo outlined a process of “2 waters”, that is, a bottom up mash for rye, oats, wheat and barley malts and a top down mash for the corn meal, malted and unmalted.

I know that flaking corn will gelatinize it so you can go straight to saccarification. Otherwise, I would want to take the corn to 190*F until it’s a nice soft corn pudding. And the HTL enzymes helps with that. Incidentally, I put the corn in the oven set at 190*F while I do the upward infusions of the other cereal malts.

After upward infusing my rye and wheat and barley, I dough the corn pudding into the mash tun and add warm or cool water as needed to get to my sac temperature. Then I dough in my oats flakes too and hold until converted.

My method of bidirectional infusion steps is more effort. But it has improved my extract efficiency. And it is the method I use to make my 5 grain bourbon.
ss

[Seymourbeer4131]

Well I hope I didnt ruin my enzymes but I just peaked at 165f for 15 minutes. I was trying to get above 135f before a sat down for dinner. I checked 4 times 15 min apart after that and was holding at 147f, and then I had a heating coil malfunction and peaked at 165 or so before I caught it.
I immediately cooled it with ice to 150, but the foaming stopped.

[still_stirrin]

Do you have any liquid enzymes? Because at 165*F beta amylase is denatured very quickly..like within 15 minutes. Alpha amylase is slightly more tolerant but it is what produces non-fermentable sugars.

[Seymourbeer4131]

Well I can add some from mile hi distilling if necessary, but after the cool down and returning to 140 degree range the foaming has resumed somewhat and the mash is quite sweet now at 1 hour of total mash time. I dont know how so many of you get a complete conversion in such a short time, but I have always been used to mashing for several days before iodine would show a total conversion. Maybe because of using external enzymes. I was hoping to get faster mash times by malting my own corn. I will leave it mash till tomorrow at least and see what gravity 20 lbs of corn in 8 gal water gives me. I usually see a foaming activity with the grain being suspended in the mash when it's still converting, and the poof, all of a sudden it all settles to the bottom of the pot and the foaming stops. That's usually my cue my mash is done l. That and a couple of iodine tests on just the liquid.
Maybe I'm crazy and all wrong here, but I have been successful so far at getting the super sugary sweet liquid from grain each time so far. And now the batch I am working on now tastes like its halfway there. Will see in the morning, and post. Thanks for everyone's intelligent helpful remarks

[Seymourbeer4131]

Ok ,so this morning it seems everything is back on track with foaming and grain suspension. I dont know for sure how long it was at 165f or if I gelanitized or cooked my corn enough in the process, but the sugary water is much sweeter this morning. This is a first time for doing an all out corn malt to mash. I did let the chitlets get quite long, 2 inches on some, I even saw one had "leaves' lol! Also I did not dry or kiln them. I went right from the sprouting tray, straight into the modified meat grinder, and then off into the mash kettle. I was quite impressed how fast the corn broke down into a fine slurry, almost as soon as it hit the 140 water.
So I dont know about all this hi temp gelanitizing talk, and bringing my hard work of sprouting corn with all those hard won lovely enzymes up to such a high temp, but next time I think I will pass. Theres a lovely chart someone posted on HD somewhere else that shows a gelanitizing temp as high as 170f for malted corn, but that's too scary for my liking.

[Seymourbeer4131]

Heres the chart