Equilibrium?

[wv_cooker]

if some one could just post some temp numbers that go with this convo it would be great. I know a boka runs much differently than a pot still .not try to side track the thread .but to me... equilibrium has to do with running your rig .why aren't temps mentioned?

I guess im confused about how you make cuts with a reflux still , im well read up on pot stilling. boka is my new project and I want to learn, yoda please teach me the way

Temps aren't mentioned because they control themselves, you have no way of controlling them. As dad mentioned he doesn't even use a thermometer. The fractions come off at the temp they want. As for cut's they are made the same on any still by taste, smell, and feel. A good read on making cuts is also in the reading lounge.

[T-Pee]

Excellent answers and discussion to my query, gents. And yes, I do understand pretty much everything that has been said because I've been reading my eyeballs red since I joined. A MUCH steeper learning curve than I had expected but that's pretty normal if you're gonna do it right, right?

tp

[jarheadshiner]

Outstanding discussion guys! Dad300 you have had a good while to learn your rig now and it obviously sounds like you have got it figured out. I'm finishing up a 2 inch just like yours. Seeing as how your method of running it is a bit different than the traditional method, any chance of giving us a how-to in your build thread or a new one? Don't wanna drag this thread off topic but several of members seem to be giving your rig a shot and it would save us a lot of growing pains. Would be much appreciated.

[DAD300]

I haven't bothered to mention my rig much, because I don't see any difference in any column that uses reflux to advance the ABV.

Fores come out of the boiler and up the column before heads, then hearts and tails...they depart the boiler at slightly different temps, a few degrees hear and there...but science says all the stuff we want to get rid of comes to the product condenser FIRST. So, why in the world would anyone want to take the shit, headache causing, poison alcohols and drop them back down the column, mixing them into the stuff we want to keep.

I don't see a difference between a pot still, Boka, VM, LM or true laboratory fractionating column. Fores (let's say acetone) come off at a slightly lower temp than heads,...and so on...gt rid of the nastiest...then go for what reflux is needed to get the ABV you desire and let it run...

If we were in a lab, we could measure the atmospherics (temp, humidity, barometric pressure,...) the boiler charge ABV, the temps to within half a degree and guess what? The fores come off first, as the temp rises, the heads, hearts (pure azeo ethanol),...and the tails

So every day, the run will very just a little...but the components will still come off the takeoff in the same order,...unless we induce 100% reflux and mix them.

My column is a 3" x 36" column over an uncut keg, on a gas burner I've match up to ~5,000 watts for heatup and ~3,000 for run. It has a VM head on it with a 3" take off. It could have a Boka style head on it and I would run it the same. I have stuck with the VM because of the high takeoff I get and the ability to control the ABV anywhere between 85%-azeo. I have built another for a friend and stuffed it very tightly with scrubbie and a 2" take off...It made azeo on the first run, about 25% slower, but has trouble degrading down to 85% right off the still because the smaller takeoff induces more reflux..

Yes Manu was the first one to ever show me a movable condenser.

Here's the basic ideas of my build and the Condenser Controlled VM...the only thing I've changed in two years is the Product Condenser several times trying to simplify the construction. Less parts, no valve. http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 17&t=41579

People want to use thermometers, valves and timers for one purpose...there is a human need to fidget with things, they get board watching a proper still make alcohol.

Build a column that makes the alcohol you want, let science and the still do it.

[jarheadshiner]

Thanks for the response D3. I follow what you are saying. Sounds like I am trying to make things more complicated than need be Apologies for making you restate what you had plainly stated before.

[Hound Dog]

Hey WV, on my boka, if I have the takeoff valve open right from the start, wouldn't I prevent that first bit of condensed vapor from going back down the column? I mean the plates overlap and I if am using a 1/2" O.D. takeoff tube and valve it should let it drain faster than spilling back into the mix shouldn't it? Would this not have the same effect as the VM?

I just ask because I have thought this before but never heard it discussed between more experienced guys like yourselves. I will also probably not be in a position to test it out soon

Great discussion though!

[woodshed]

D3 is spot on. These early alcohols want out at a lower temp. Let them go. Then go for stabilization. It's all in knowing how to run your still.

[wv_cooker]

Hey WV, on my boka, if I have the takeoff valve open right from the start, wouldn't I prevent that first bit of condensed vapor from going back down the column? I mean the plates overlap and I if am using a 1/2" O.D. takeoff tube and valve it should let it drain faster than spilling back into the mix shouldn't it? Would this not have the same effect as the VM?

I just ask because I have thought this before but never heard it discussed between more experienced guys like yourselves. I will also probably not be in a position to test it out soon

Great discussion though!

You would get most of it out in reality and as dad stated the rest would work its way back to the top as the still stabilizes. remember this information is what we have all learned as we first started. Once you get the jest of how it works experimenting is the way to get it for yourself. Dad300 has been a leader in that department. And I certainly appreciate all that I have learned from him.

[Hound Dog]

I think this still keeps with our topic so I am going to throw it out there..... How big of a part does insulation play in this? I can see where being outside in the wind or in a very cold environment it might be important. I distill in a garage so no wind, in the winter my burner along with a heater gets it reasonably warm pretty quick (I have open rafters and soffits for plenty of ventilation). I can see energy efficiency of insulating the boiler, but I mean column efficiency in specific.

[bellybuster]

. On a LM vapor must reach the condenser and be changed back to liquid before it can even be taken off. Once it is changed back to liquid at least a percentage returns back to the column either through a tube or through the center of the column itself as reflux. Now I ask the question what happens to that returning foreshots that returns back down the column while you are removing a percentage as well.

It's quite possible to have zero reflux and 100% takeoff on a LM still head. If not, I would suggest the takeoff to be too small a diameter.

I see this as incredibly simple, now, pot stills are quite effective at removing fores, leave it that way and then make use of reflux for its benefits. Reflux does not benefit fores removal.

[wv_cooker]

. On a LM vapor must reach the condenser and be changed back to liquid before it can even be taken off. Once it is changed back to liquid at least a percentage returns back to the column either through a tube or through the center of the column itself as reflux. Now I ask the question what happens to that returning foreshots that returns back down the column while you are removing a percentage as well.

It's quite possible to have zero reflux and 100% takeoff on a LM still head. If not, I would suggest the takeoff to be too small a diameter.

I see this as incredibly simple, now, pot stills are quite effective at removing fores, leave it that way and then make use of reflux for its benefits. Reflux does not benefit fores removal.

Was not possible on mine as it had no valve as recommended by a mentor here when I first started. as soon as liquid started part went down the return tube and part to the Take off. So we are talking different stills have different ways of running them but the definition of equilibrium doesn't change just because we can run our stills differently.

[DAD300]

Hounddog...about insulation...

You need to keep the wind off the column and boiler, as this will cause some weird fluctuations. And I do distill outside, on my porch, all year round.

I've had a moderate amount of trouble insulating my boiler (over gas). I'll admit, I have set the insulation on fire...more than once! So now I worry most about insulating the top of the keg and not the sides.

Column insulation...for me, is very dependent on the type of packing. With SS Scrubbies, I used the foam plumbing insulation and taped or tied it in place from boiler to takeoff.

I found out this was too much insulation when I went to SPP. The increased mass of the SPP was so dense it had almost no temp gradient from top to bottom. So, I have a very loose cloth cover over the bottom 2/3rds of column now. Just to keep the wind off.

On Odin's rigs...the bottom SS column is insulated and the top portions are glass. I bet that is not just for show. I assume the glass allows for a temperature change.

Bellybuster...sounds like your LM is proper...my biggest concern with most LM's, is most don't allow the operator a range of takeoff necessary to control the take of and reflux ratio for any product other than azeo.

If everything else is right (column height/dia/packing proportions) you shouldn't need a 15:1 reflux to takeoff azeo. And when you want, you should be able to get as close to 1:1 as possible.

A 2" column with a 2" takeoff VM can get 1:1 or 15:1. A 2" LM (Boka) with a 3/8" take off can only get ~10:1 at max. And that may be a good thing for the guy who wants only azeo out of an LM. Kind of makes a Boka a very slow one trick pony!

It also depends how tall your column is. If I had a 2" x 90" monster tall column full of marbles, I'd be very concerned about max insulation. With a 3" x 36" of SPP...not so much.

ANECDOTAL
Here's another thing that happens with over refluxing right from the start. If I reflux for 30 minutes before taking off anything. I get a small amount of fores that are really nasty. So bad no one would consider them anything but waste...then I immediately get azeo that smells clean of acetone...it is on the verge of being so pure that I can't smell the heads even after it airs. So, where did they go? Did I compress them so tight that they were really in the fores?

Hell no! I just spread them so well over the next three quarts that they are tolerable. If you use a lot of reflux, you can smear the heads over the next three quarts of azeo...and at 95+%, it's very hard to tell they are there. Please don't tell me you have condensed the heads, by refluxing them to death, unless you can hand me a quart of heads.

[humbledore]

So if I understand your position, a refluxing LM still will smear fores and heads worse than a pot still. Because a pot still takes the vapor as it comes up.

[DAD300]

So if I understand your position, a refluxing LM still will smear fores and heads worse than a pot still. Because a pot still takes the vapor as it comes up.

A refluxing LM still has the potential to make a high ABV product and smear the fores and heads all the way through...the higher the reflux, the longer the reflux before takeoff and the larger the LM cup, the worse the smear, if the fores and heads are not removed before the hearts start up the column.

But same potential for a poorly run VM or CM...

A simple pot still has very little chance to smear anything. Now a poorly designed product condenser (that pools too much product) and a big parrot can surely do it smear a pot still output...and bad cuts/blending.

[sambedded]

A refluxing LM still has the potential to make a high ABV product and smear the fores and heads all the way through...the higher the reflux, the longer the reflux before takeoff and the larger the LM cup, the worse the smear, if the fores and heads are not removed before the hearts start up the column.

Dad, looks like you completely misunderstand how fractioning column works. And now you are confusing newbies.
There is no "smearing" during full reflux its a fraction separation. Yes, bad column design can lead to a smearing (for example big collection cap etc) but it's a different story.

A simple pot still has very little chance to smear anything.

And a simple pot still does smearing all time. Because it can't really separate fractions you always have a contamination of your product by head and tails.

[Maritimer]

sambedded,

You may as well be talking to the wind.

This is another human fable. Humans want to turn simple science (the idea that the bad stuff comes off first) and make it more complicated (refluxing unnecessarily and tinkering with valves and worrying about temperatures) when science says the bad stuff comes off first, collect it and dump it. Then concentrate the hearts...

The vapour is a combination of all the components of the wash with vapour pressures for each component determined by the vapour pressure of that component multiplied by the mol fraction of that component in the wash mixture. This is Raoult's Law for Liquids (p. 149 of The Compleat Distiller).

DAD seems to have the idea that the components just march out of the wash in order of lightness. Sorry, DAD, nature doesn't work that way.

M

[DAD300]

Sam, yes, I agree, the components are never pure, at our hobby level. But they are more pure at lower ABV's then they are at higher. You have a better/cleaner chance of making cuts off a pot still than off a reflux still.

Do the components or do they not vaporize/boil/rise at different temps? And do we agree on the order?

One of the problems in all these discussions is that we tend to want to fluctuate back and forth between pure science and the good old boys folklore of making moonshine!

If you want to tell me they don't come off the boiler on a schedule of their natural components/boiling points, you can't turn around and tell me they stack themselves in the column on that same natural order. Especially when you are condensing and boiling and condensing and boiling and condensing and boiling and...trapped in a vessel (column) with this cycle going on and you are mixing them to the fullest extent.

[Maritimer]

If you want to tell me they don't come off the boiler on a schedule of their natural components/boiling points, you can't turn around and tell me they stack themselves in the column on that same natural order.

This statement starts off with a false premise (that the components come off in order of their boiling points), and then comes to the conclusion...

Cardinalbags explains very clearly on the first page of this thread http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 3#p7135500 .

You have an idea in your head that is not in accord with nature. Read Cardinalbags's post and understand it. Try to get that wrong idea out of your head. You are contaminating others with that wrong idea.

M

[Cardinalbags]

The concentration of the components that makes up the fores and heads are the highest at the beginning of any run. That speaks true of all the fractions in the wash.

Being a lighter component of the mixture, based on this higher mole fraction it will tend to boil off more at the beginning of the run but still leaving some amount still in the wash. Its just that this remainder of fores and heads is a lot less in concentration in the wash now that it is beyond our capability to smell or taste them. They all dont just go floating out of the wash at the front end of the run. Nothing in nature is so absolute as being described there. It is coming off in diminishing concentrations.

To further try and illuminate: The ABV coming off a pot still starts at a higher number and then diminishes over time as the alcohol is drawn off. Fores and heads components concentrations are no different.

Now in the fractionating column, this same concentration will still boil off at the beginning of the run, and still leave some in the wash, but the heat transfer effect over time which sets up in the column due to the reflux will create the temperature gradient in the column which is so important to stacking the fractions and allow the lighter components to stay near the top of the column.

if left in this mode for a good long time, more lighter components would continue to boil off and find their way to the top. If no other moves were made, the lighter components do not smear back down the column. This is why fores CAN be concentrated at the top of the column. if any smearing starts, it is because the takeoff rates are too high for the efficiency of the column.

if the boiling points of the various components are close to each other, then the height of the column needs to be taller to efficiently allow the heat transfer to work to separate the components. Drive past any refinery and look for a tall but skinny diameter tower. It will be one of the tallest towers on the site. This tower would be called the depropanizer which, as its role, separates the propane from butanes and higher components. propane and butane have very similar boiling points.

Back to my setup, I let the column stabilize for a good long time while i putter around the garage. Jar #1 is total crap and makes paint thinner smell good. Jar #2 through 4 dont smell of acetone anymore but are more sweeter smelling and can still taste the bite of the heads. Jars 5 through 18-19 don't have much smell or taste at all. Jar# 20 and greater have the tails smell and taste coming in and fast. now all of this is for my rig with the wash that i run it, the way. I run it. (For reference, the jars are 500ml mason jars that. i fill about 450-475 ml full.)

I am not saying that I have removed all the fores in jar#1, again that is speaking in absolutes that just dont exist in nature. But I have concentrated as much of them in Jar 1 for as much time that I was willing to invest in letting the column stabilize.

[Prairiepiss]

I find this thread amusing.

Now the term Equilibrium.

It was posted that Equilibrium is a term for larger commercial continuous stills. That use a multiple takeoff system. And that it shouldn't be used for batch hobby reflux stills.

I don't see why not. It has been used for a long time. And just because some book doesn't refer to it as such. Doesn't mean that this term hasn't been adopted for something needing a term. It does describe what its intended to. So I don't really see the big deal?

A reflux column reaches equilibrium when. The temps stabilize or equalize. Creating a natural temp gradient in the column. Or a state of equilibrium.

It's a term that has been used for a long time. So why try to change it now? That would just cornfuse more people. Many terms and or words have many different meanings. Beer for example. Most know it SSR the stuff you drink from a can. But distillers use beer to describe a finished fermented whiskey wash. Is that wrong? It doesn't have hops in it so it can't be beer? No it just adds another meaning to the word beer.

I will let the rest of you carry on about the other stuff. I know what works for my still. And it involves 100% reflux. Otherwise I wouldn't ever get over 85% ABV. And the heads and tails would be smeared like a pot still. But maybe I'm just doing it wrong. Oh wait without 100% reflux. Mine is just a pot still.

[wv_cooker]

Yes sir thank you Cardinalbags! Some of us are just dumb ole country boy's who don't have the education to explain mole fractions and scientific stuff, but we do understand fraction separation and fraction equilibrium. Excellent explanation. And for those that want a good read that helps understand it even better here is a good one. Though long and about a different subject the same content is explained very well by some of the old timers.

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =1&t=39751

[DAD300]

wv..you quoted mash rookie, "I am still batch distilling. I just have better control. With the ability to apply 100% reflux I compress heads better than a pot still. With the ability to maintain good equilibrium all fractions are taken in the order of BP. I have the ability to “smear” them as I choose."

"They are taken off in order of boiling point." Nature/science
"I have the ability to smear them as I choose." He refers to blending after collection...

Cardinalbags...we agree that there is nothing here absolute...your idea of a tall and skinny tower being used in a fractionating still is more to my point that in a lab setting they have the ability to draw the components off at different points and save or quarantine them as desired. We don't have a quarantine for the dif elements, but we still need to get them out of the still asap. And yes there will always be some compromise and some residuals left behind in the "mix."

And I can agree with PP about the term has been used for a long time...so write an HD definition about Equilibrium of power vs temp, not about stacked components in a column. PP congratulations on your 85%. You are happy with your product and that is a good point.

Do you still say you can forcibly stack vapor components in an open atmospheric system (column), while you send the mixed components up as vapor and down as refluxed liquid?

Pot still 15 gallons and get XXoz of fores/heads. Reflux still the same 15 gallons, should you get the same XXoz of fores/heads?

If you don't get the same amount from the reflux still, where did they go? Did you compress them?

I say you are doing a great job of mixing/smearing them during 100% reflux, before any take off.

[Prairiepiss]

Apparently you didst get what I ment by my statement. Congrats aren't in order. The reference to 85% is saying. If I did what you say. That's all my still would produce. But if I do use 100% reflux to my advantage. I can achieve 95% no problem. My fores and heads are also much more concentrated when I do it. So how is it that I can stack my column with higher ABV and concentration the lower bp fractions. Getting more usable product. Then if I was to not do this? If smearing was a problem. Then I would get less usable product. From what you're saying. Would I not?

[wv_cooker]

Yes I quoted Mash Rookie but I was really hoping that folks wold look at Usges great explanation of cuts and how the fractions are compressed in a reflux column. He posted some pretty nice graphs.

Sorry dad but you left out a part of that quote in your explanation.

With the ability to apply 100% reflux I compress heads better than a pot still.

[wv_cooker]

Do you still say you can forcibly stack vapor components in an open atmospheric system (column), while you send the mixed components up as vapor and down as refluxed liquid? No we do not forcibly stack them they naturally stack themselves as the water and contaminates are removed through forced reflux.

Pot still 15 gallons and get XXoz of fores/heads. Reflux still the same 15 gallons, should you get the same XXoz of fores/heads?
This really shouldn't even need an explanation but here we go - of course there will be less from a reflux column because the water and contaminates have been removed. That is the entire reason for having a reflux column, purity. A pot still does not.

If you don't get the same amount from the reflux still, where did they go? Did you compress them?
Yes and we also remove more of the water and contaminates and return it to the boiler.

I say you are doing a great job of mixing/smearing them during 100% reflux, before any take off.

Sorry for the second post but was thinking about it after a reread a couple times. I stand by equilibrium by it's definition, I also agree that there are many ways to run a still to achieve your personal goals. In my original post I quoted 15 min. to 1 hr as a time frame simply because that is the general consensus in many post's around this forum. Do I believe it takes an hour, No I have done it many ways and for me 20 to 30 minutes seems to give my column enough time to establish it's heat gradient and stabilise. 1 hr never changed anything it was wasting time to me.

[Spokerider]

Well it would appear that the million dollar question is;
Do the vapors mix and smear in a tall thin column [under 100 percent refluxing] or do they separate into distinct fractions within the top of the column?

[Cardinalbags]

I think the answer to that is the heart of the argument is it not?

[googe]

I'll use my stills for an example, my pot used to collect around 600ml of heads, because a pot can't compress the fractions, that heads collection would be let's say a ball park figure, 20ml fores, 500ml heads, 80ml hearts. Next I'd collect say 3L hearts, that hearts collection would be 2.8L hearts, 200ml tails. My plated column, which compresses fractions nicely, will be tight cuts, my heads cut is about 400+ml, the fractions won't smear over.like the pot, I get more hearts at higher abv, the tails will just come through in a split second!, that's what compressing fractions is like, they just change so fast compared to a pot.

[DAD300]

Hey...

HAPPY NEW YEARS & a good drink to all!

Luv you guys...

[wv_cooker]

Happy New Year Dad and same to Ya!!!!!!!