baker's yeast and sugar washes

[Odin]

To sumarize, if we want to use baker's yeast in sugar washes, with the goal of creating taste rich product:
- Add backset to the next generation;
- Go for a low pH (4.0) for more esterification;
- Aeriate prior to starting up a new ferment, so the yeast can propagate and add organic compounds to the fermentation for even more esterification;
- Ferment at higher temps (28 to 34 degrees C).

Esterification is the process where alcohols and carbon, in a sour environment, create esters. Esters are flavour molecules we can taste and smell. A more sour fermentation ups the esterification process. As does the higher temperature of fermentation.

Regards, Odin.

[midwest shinner]

Great thread Odin! Thank you for once again instigating a conversation that pushes our boundaries and makes us think about things that we do

[Titus-a-fishus]

Just thought I'd throw my 2cents in fellas.

As I live in the tropics, most of my brewing is done at or above 30 deg C.
I get great mileage out of bakers yeast.
Few years ago I was trying to get flavour out of UJSSM.... without success.
Odin may remember our many discussions on the UJSSM thread.

No matter what I did including using frozen sweet corn... feed corn, cracked and who knows what else, couldn't get flavour in the wash.
So I gave up and now make neutrals using the same UJ recipe.

But... there have been times when I've pitched the Lowan's bakers yeast at 38C and had plenty of success in making a good neutral.
In fact the temp went up from there, as the yeast got busy.
My ferments that did this were from 50ltrs up to 250ltrs at a time. .... go figure

Here is a link to pitching yeast while doing UJSM back in 2011 UJ page32 (look at the bottom of the page)

Another factor I've read recently is that the higher the ABV your wash is (within reason) the less flavour you will get.
Most of my washes are in the 11- 12% range. So yeah.... I get washes with very little flavour that make great neutrals.
UJSSM my adventures in no flavour
TAF

[Odin]

Ah ... the no flavour UJ story ... Yes I remember. I have the same problem over here. UJ (corn) just doesn't work, does not bring over taste. Good thing is it made me migrate to rye and rye bread and corn flakes, and they all do the trick.

I think higher abv's in the ferment give you a more neutral outcome, because of the alcohol to grain ratio. For esterification to take place, alcohol and organic (carbon) material reacts. It does so more in a sour and hot environment. So ... let's say you have a certain amount of alcohol related to grain (UJ: 3 kilo's of corn, strike abv of around ... 8%?) and it does get you taste ... now, if you add more sugar, the abv will rise, but the amount of organic material does not. So esterification, as related to the total alcohol produced may actually become less.

Regards, Odin.

[Odin]

Great thread Odin! Thank you for once again instigating a conversation that pushes our boundaries and makes us think about things that we do

Thanks Midwest! I am preparing a similar post on how we can distill taste rich. But it starts with fermentation, so we need to have this discussion first!

Regards, Odin.

[bellybuster]

So ... if we ferment "hotter" ... we seem to get better results. How come?

Sorry, maybe I missed it, but I haven't read here where better results are achieved with bakers yeast at higher temps vs low temps. Just that folks ferment at high temps and are happy with it. I use bakers at low temps (65F to 70F) and am happy with the results. Anyone done both low and high temp ferments with bakers yeast and can compare the results?

This is my result as well, I ferment on the lower scale of most all yeasts I use with great success. I would love to see an honesty side by side with ferment temps. Bakers certainly slows at lower temps but does continue to chug along.

I've red here many times that bakers stalls below 75, I can for sure tell you it does not.

[Odin]

This is how I put it on a Blog:

"
Many believe that it’s the distillation procedure or equipment that defines how taste rich a product will be. But that’s only partially the case. What we distill, rather than how we distill, is the key. It is during fermentation that essential tastes are developed.

Distillation concentrates tastes and can help you get rid of some unwanted flavours. But if you have a poor tasting fermentation, distillation, by no means, is going to add great tastes!

My point being? If you are after a great tasting product, start by putting more effort in your fermentation procedures. Distillation does play a role, but it starts with fermentation.

What the starting-points to a great and taste rich fermentation are? Let’s dive in deeper!

Creating taste is about creating taste molecules. Taste molecules are also called “esters” and the process by which they are formed is called “esterification”.

Esters are formed when organic (carbon) molecules react with alcohol. And for esterification to take place effectively, a sour environment is needed. What’s also important is that chemical reactions – and that’s what esterification is – take place at a much faster rate in warmer environments.

So, if we want to make taste rich product, and aim for the best whiskey, brandy, or rum, and if we want to focus on our fermentation procedures, these are the ingredients we need:
- Alcohol;
- Organic molecules;
- Sour and hot environment.

Alcohol forms during fermentation. In the beginning there is no alcohol in the fermentation, towards the end there’s more and more of it. This gradual increase of the alcohol percentage has to be taken into account. Don’t crash cool a ferment, because your distillation scheme says you need a wash. Rather, give it time to ferment dry. Most esters (due to the increasing alcohol percentage) are formed in the last two days of the fermentation, so don’t rush things.

Organic molecules are introduced into the fermentation by the fruits or grains the sugars are extracted from. So if you are after taste rich product, what you want to do is ferment “on the grain” or “on the pulp”. Don’t ferment clear beers, ferment dirty uncleared beers and wines. If “beer” and “wine” we can call it.

Also, a lot of organic molecules are introduced by the yeast itsself, during the aerobic, reproductive, cell wall build-up phase. This is important: for maximum taste, you want the yeast to have an aerobic phase. You can achieve this by, prior to pitching the yeast, aeriating the wash. Stir it. Add bubbles to it. Pitch a relatively low amount of yeast (no problem, since they reproduce during this first aerobic phase). Do not use a yeast starter.

The third “ingredient” to a perfect, taste rich ferment is an environment where the yeast and esterification process benefit the most. Hot and sour.

Higher fermentation temperatures like 28 to 34 degrees C are fine. And a lower pH of around 4.0 helps the esterification process a lot.

Fermenting with a yeast strain that works good in high temperature environments is a prerequisit. Actually, most baker’s yeasts work very well under these conditions. No need to go all fancy with expensive yeast strains, when cheap and readily available baker’s yeast is doing a great job.

The sourness can be managed by adding backset from a previous strip run to the new fermentation. Backset plays an essential role in both rum and whiskey making. Backset makes the fermentation sour, which helps the formation of esters. Backset is also full of taste, nutrients, and organic compounds. If pH drops too much (under 3.5), use bicarb to up the the pH. Or turn it around: add even more bicarb, when starting up a new fermentation, so you can add more backset for even more taste transfer and more of the much needed organic compounds for maximum esterification.

To sumarize, the starting-points for taste rich fermentations are:
- Use backset to sour up the next fermentation;
- Keep the ferment at or slightly under pH 4.0;
- Add oxygen, prior to starting up a new batch;
- Add a relatievely small amount of yeast;
- Ferment on the grain;
- Ferment between 28 and 34 degrees C.
"

Regards, Odin.

[Getsmokin]

Alcohol forms during fermentation. In the beginning there is no alcohol in the fermentation, towards the end there’s more and more of it. This gradual increase of the alcohol percentage has to be taken into account. Don’t crash cool a ferment, because your distillation scheme says you need a wash. Rather, give it time to ferment dry. Most esters (due to the increasing alcohol percentage) are formed in the last two days of the fermentation, so don’t rush things.

Also, a lot of organic molecules are introduced by the yeast itsself, during the aerobic, reproductive, cell wall build-up phase. This is important: for maximum taste, you want the yeast to have an aerobic phase. You can achieve this by, prior to pitching the yeast, aeriating the wash. Stir it. Add bubbles to it. Pitch a relatively low amount of yeast (no problem, since they reproduce during this first aerobic phase). Do not use a yeast starter.
Regards, Odin.

All brewing literature that i have ever read states that the majority of esters are produced during the lag phase (aerobic phase) at the beginning of fermentation. Also that pitching really high as well as really low will increase ester production, both can cause an incomplete fermentation as well. Now, i don't have much experience with bakers yeast, but i have a lot with sach strains and can't believe they are any different.

[cb_j]

croweater, as a differing opinion on that;
I found the tandaco the better performer. It does take forever in cooler temps, but it finished all ferments, even the higher SG ones.
Lowans always seemed to start slower and took forever regardless of temperature.
Having said this though, due to travelling, maybe I'm getting old stock at some places? Tandaco is handy in its packets, and due to the social nature of our people the larger packs of lowans would be less favourable (except to old wog grandmas baking 24/7)

[thecroweater]

OK my experience with that yeast was not good and I know at least two others that felt the same, could have been old stock or could be the weather conditions here but I had a couple of goes at it and gave up, its still in the cupboard here waiting for a bake off