My new boiler. Time to modify.

[shadylane]

Shady had a very interesting thread recently. Looks like you both got lucky with jacketed boilers recently! Congrats!

Here's a question: do you think the inside of the jacket on yours is clean enough, or could be clean enough? There is a fella on another forum who made one that runs water in the jacket, and the outlet from the jacket goes into the liquid in the boiler. So during most of the run it's not adding anything, but after the temps get higher in the mash it starts to directly inject some steam.

Have you got a link?

[shadylane]

I didn't find much info other than Swede did it.
Here's how I think it was done.
The heater warms the water and therefor the mash in the bain marie.
The water doesn't boil until the mash gets hot enough to quit stealing heat from it.
Once the water starts boiling, the steam is injected into the mash.

[yakattack]

That's pretty much exactly how I pictures it. That's my tentative plan. We will see how this looks inside the double wall. Hoping to open it up this weekend. We shall see.

I appreciate your imputed shady and brutal and others that have chimed in. I will try to keep very good detailed records for everyone

Yak.

[shadylane]

I'm not sure the water jacket on my bain marie will hold enough water to be used as a boiler.
Filled all the way up it will hold 11 gallons and I'll need some headspace for the steam.

[yakattack]

11 gallons? Run 7 to 8. You'll have more than enough.

[shadylane]

I was looking through some of my notes on steam distillation.
The water boiler was using somewere in the ball park of 1.5 gallons per hour.
I'll definitely need a sight tube to keep track of the water level.
And probably some spare heating elements.

[yakattack]

Keep in mind it will be much more efficient because it isn't losing the efficiency in heat up. The more I think about it the more I am sold on the potential of this system.

Yak

[shadylane]

One of the problems with steam injection was, the mash got heated unevenly, which led to smearing.
Using this idea, the mash will be heated on the bottom, sides and steam will be injected in the middle.

[shadylane]

On a side note, less water will be used by the boiler
and less dilution of the mash with condensed steam.
Basically it's steam distillation with the thumper inside the boiler.

[yakattack]

My thoughts exactly shady

[Brutal]

I've not been able to find those pictures. Sucks because I found them a long time ago when I first started out and had no aspirations of doing something like that lol. I've messaged him and I'll post up when he responds.

Another thing to think about. With the added mass of the jacket is it will take a little longer to heat up. There is no reason, if using the injection design, not to put a propane burner under the boiler and run the electric at the same time for the heat up. Yak if you are going to replace the bottom of yours anyway maybe you could do it with this in mind.

[yakattack]

I appreciate you going out of your way for that brutal.
It is Def an option to still use propane. But I plan on adding 2 element so should not need to. I'll be putting a ss bottom on I think. (Though copper sheet is possible. )

[shadylane]

We are on the same page. I'm planning on using two elements also.
Instead of cutting the bottom off, I'll cut at the top.
My idea is to raise the inside, so there's room for more water under it.

[yakattack]

This should be interesting to see how both builds developed. I have a feeling my double wall holds more than yours as it is. But if your modifying it add a drain and a fill port for the double wall for sure.

I want to add a copper ring with hole drilled out around it at the top so I can rinse from the too of the double wall by hooking up a water line. This way I can flush the double wall on demand. This should allow me to run cleared wort/wash easily.

Yak

[UnSub]

Not sure if anyone put this option out there but H20 with an expansion tank would eliminate the loss of fluid and still be pretty low pressure (2g bladder boiler exp tank & ?15psi safety valve?)

[yakattack]

Because I'm modifying the tank I will not be putting it under any pressure as a safety precaution. The hybrid boiler should work the way I want it to, and I can honestly see a shift towards this type of boiler in the none to distant future. It encompasses the best of the bain marie and direct steam injection with the simplicity of a single boiler, able to run on the grain. Electric or propane fired and with a big drain valve. What more could I ask for.

But I do appreciate the imput.

[DFitz]

This is a pretty solid consideration for a heating medium. There are many options for various temp requirements.
http://www.paratherm.com/industries/biodiesel-index/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
It is expensive though and the company recommends circulation so that it doesn't eventually create deposits onto your elements. The representative I spoke to offered the idea of a glycol based oil as a less cost prohibitive consideration. Water on the other hand combined with steam injection is a resort that has its drawbacks.

[yakattack]

DFitz. What drawbacks do you see? I haven't found much info on them and am purely running on speculation atm.

[Worm Food]

I too am interested in any "drawbacks", and definitely looking to learn more about this 'double-wall' concept.

I happen to have on hand some ss material that is either 'gold' or 'garbage'. Thinking about starting another thread about incorporating 'it' so that I don't side-track or hijack this thread.

Keep it coming, and more to follow, at the same time.

Thanks.

[DFitz]

Heating water to a boiling temp. will not heat or control heat of your mash enough for good distilling. You can combine steam injection for better control however unless your reservoir is large enough to to provide enough steam to continually maintain your distilling temp you'll have to add more water. Another issue is that the more steam you add to your mash, the less alcohol content you'll have. Where efficiency is concerned I'd consider these draw backs. This however doesn't mean that eventual distillation can't be accomplished.

[yakattack]

Worm food. Feel free to post here. If it is about a double walled boiler it's fair game.

DFitz. - while I am not an engineer, I don't think you are right. And here is why.

The double wall section should hold about 1/4 the boiler charge. So lack of water is not an issue.

2 - while we are heating the water to boiling. It will not actually boil as fast as you think. This is because once the mash (which is also being heated by the hot water bath directly below it ) gets to the temp that alcohol is evaporating, it will have driven off a lot of the alcohol.
This is removing some of the energy that we are putting into the water.


3 when the steam injection does kick in, a lot of the alcohol will be gone. But because this is going to be powering my plated column, the issue of diluted mash is gone.

4. Power in -power out. We don't run a still by temperature control. We run it by power control. If I wanted I could run the element low. Which would keep it from boiling and injecting steam, this would still allow me to drive off almost all of the available alcohol. Even tho I'll have stopped collecting before then. Cranking up to full tilt will of course create a faster run as I am putting more power into it. Once it stops being able to transfer as much power into the mash through the boiler the steam will again give me the boost in speed.

I could be wrong but I don't think I am. I guess I'll find out when I run it. But I honestly expect to have at least 90%+ control of the run that I do have now with my immersion element in the wash.

Yes it will be slightly slower. But it will still be faster then having to squeeze the grains, and do multiple strip runs as I have to do now. Simple trade off that I'm still ahead in my opinion.

[Brutal]

Yak, you are right.

Fitz, steam has drawbacks and downsides, just not the ones you mention. Its an extremely viable distillation method used by distilleries world wide. Using it in the context implied here will not only work for the members here, it has worked for many before them. We are not really breaking new ground here. Its just rare at the hobby level to come up with a jacketed boiler without breaking the bank or having amazing skills.

[DFitz]

I think you take my implied temp to mean the temp of the wash rather transferred than thermal units. It'll be interesting to see the outcome of your boiler. I hope too see you succeed.

[shadylane]

Yak
I've cut my Bain Marie open and started modifying it into a hybrid.
Your getting behind in the experiment.
Better get started, so you can also tell us about what works or fails.
My opinion isn't enough, we need more.
I'm prone to getting the wrong idea's

[yakattack]

Yak
I've cut my Bain Marie open and started modifying it into a hybrid.
Your getting behind in the experiment.
Better get started, so you can also tell us about what works or fails.
My opinion isn't enough, we need more.
I'm prone to getting the wrong idea's

Haha I know. I know. I just dropped what I saved on some parts for the build. 500 and change

And that's without furrels minus a few 4 inch for key parts( 4 inch fill drain. Columns connection)

I am trying to source a small oxy acetylene setup for under 600 right now So I can do the mods myself. Silver solder just won't cut it for replacing the bottom.

I will probably open it up next weekend to see what I am working with.

I should have the parts in within a week or two. Dam the exchange rate sucked. 64 cents on the dollar.

[Worm Food]

I'm still looking to probably build something along these lines. I have aquired some (what I think is) beautiful st. st. tube that is 12" in diameter and (I think) 39" tall. IIRC it is 10 ga, and I have a piece of 10 ga to also blind off one end.

Due to my/our interest in the intended finished product, I'm thinking that pot wins over column and jacketed/steam injected wins over any other heat method.

Highest potential of scorch prevention, right?

The remainder can be configured out of copper sheet and fittings, right? (I enjoy building/making/machining/welding things)

My primary hesitation though, is to do this once, and do it right, and make as many mistakes on paper as possible so as to better my/our chances as well.

Pictures of parts so far can follow, if anyone wants to see. My biggest thing is, I don't want to start off wrong.

[still_stirrin]

I'm still looking to probably build something along these lines.... My biggest thing is, I don't want to start off wrong.

Then I suggest reading for a good while. Know and understand the different (existing) designs. Learn and understand the operational advantages and disadvantages of each. Learn the different types of spirits and which type of still is best suited respectively.

When you know the answers of these questions...then you will be ready to proceed with designing and building your own. It may take you 6 months or more to be ready to build. Don't start until you know you know what you want to build and how you want to build it.

I don't mean to sound disheartening. I just want you to hit the (right) mark with the first shot. So many here don't because they don't spend the time reading and learning.
ss

[yakattack]

Agreed ss. I've had this boiler for months before even bringing it up here s I was doing research. But even still Lo and behold brutal suggested a hybrid design that I hadn't come across, that incorporates the two designs I was debated between. Do your research. And know what your limitations are.

Yak

[still_stirrin]

Yak, Shady, Brutal and others,

This is an interesting engineering thread. The Bain Marie "double-walled" boiler is a way to distribute the heat input to reduce hot spots and the resultant scorching of the slurry within the boiler.

This design in concept, parrots a steam jacketed kettle/boiler. Except instead of heating the kettle with 250*F steam at 15 psig, you're producing the steam at (nearly) atmospheric pressure in the jacket chamber...a steam boiler within the kettle jacket.

The saturation temperature of the steam (at nearly atmospheric pressure) will be 210*F plus or minus depending on altitude and back pressure from the mash's liquid height in the kettle/boiler. Keep in mind that the motivation for heat transfer from the jacket through the SS inner wall of the Bain Marie is temperature differential. So the "thermal resistance" to the heat flux will consume some of the temperature difference, thereby reducing the rate of heat transfered to the mash by conduction and convection.

In other words, due to conduction and convection alone, the mash would only approach the temperature of your steam asymptotically....likely not even reach 210*F before running out of water in the jacket.

The advantage to the added direct steam injection is that it adds additional heat (still at the steam's vapor temperature) directly into the mash slurry. This little boost will assist bringing the mash to a boil quicker than the jacket alone can. Of course, the BTUs/minute (kW for metric guys) of heat transferred by the steam injection will depend completely on the lbm/second of steam produced...and that would likely be improved if a water make up system were utilized to ensure the generator doesn't run out of steam.

I apologize for the long oratory here...my mechanical engineering mind is revitalized by this thread. So thanks to all the participants.

Great job guys.
ss

[shadylane]

Thanks for putting our thought's into understandable words