Home Distiller

Saltbush Bill wrote: ↑Wed May 04, 2022 5:30 pm

Stonecutter wrote: ↑Wed May 04, 2022 3:34 pm Have you ever made a jam out of em Salty?

No Jam , just an experimental batch of Spirit which turned out very well. Not sure I will do it again as picking them is a shit of a job.....you need thousands and thousands , all most all need to be picked individually as they dont all ripen at once.....a form of torture maybe.

Cheese and Rice! Thousands and thousands by hand…
Ok so would you rather…Collect them devil berries for that Brandy or help Shadylane with his famous horse apple shine?

Edit: collect and ferment them both and blend for the ultimate Hell Raiser hooch!

Stonecutter wrote: ↑Wed May 04, 2022 6:29 pm
Edit: collect and ferment them both and blend for the ultimate Hell Raiser hooch!

Sounds berry $h!tty to me.

Jonalthor wrote: ↑Wed May 04, 2022 9:32 am

NZChris wrote: ↑Tue May 03, 2022 2:25 pm If Schmickl's book hasn't got you making nice spirits yet, I'd suggest you bin it and start doing the research that Schmickl should have done before writing the book.

To be honest, the things I have made using his method have been very good. I have Serbian friends who make this stuff professionally in monasteries and the things I’ve made were comparable in quality. Especially the apple and quince rakija were amazing.

If you are happy with what you are making, just carry on doing the same. Simply swapping to different yeasts without changing other protocols in your method may result in stuck ferments.

The ferment ABV's are a giveaway that his methods involve adding a lot of sugar and adding sugar dilutes the flavors from the fruit. How much sugar are you adding to your ferments?

Are you double distilling using a pot still? One run and done with a pot still? Using some other type of still and method?

NZChris wrote: ↑Wed May 04, 2022 11:14 pm
If you are happy with what you are making, just carry on doing the same. Simply swapping to different yeasts without changing other protocols in your method may result in stuck ferments.

The ferment ABV's are a giveaway that his methods involve adding a lot of sugar and adding sugar dilutes the flavors from the fruit. How much sugar are you adding to your ferments?

Are you double distilling using a pot still? One run and done with a pot still? Using some other type of still and method?

I think I will experiment with the suggestions given here and see how it goes.

The sugar is calculated differently for each different type of fruit, naturally. I use a guide in the book above for sugar content of various fruits and a chart in the book that tells how many grams you need of sugar per liter of fermenting fruit to yield a certain percentage ABV. My target percentage has been 18% but I think I will lower it in the future.

I've heard that more sugar leads to less flavor but my experience is otherwise. The authors actually state that the higher alcohol pre-distilling facilitates the vaporization of more of the volatile flavor compounds and thus gives you more flavor. (Many compounds are more soluble in and have more of an affinity with ethanol than water, which make sense.)

I do a single distillation in a alembic pot still. I also have a small gallon electric still for micro batches and experiments.

Off topic but when I do sugar head brandies I'll also try to reserve some fruit material for macerating my feints-cut to then be recycled into next batch - or to infuse like a gin using cut brandy and a second small batch boiler/vapor infusion - eg;using grape pomace or whatever... Ongoing experiments with that and a sugarhead grappa in my near future with fresh pomace available later this season for some variations on grappa'ish spirits..

I find the best ferment ABV for my likes is to be in the 10%abv range to not stress the yeasties into producing off flavors and encourage experimentation and living on the edge - along with appropriate temp and nutrient schedule for best ferment environment.

Cheers!
-j

jonnys_spirit wrote: ↑Thu May 05, 2022 9:36 am Off topic but when I do sugar head brandies I'll also try to reserve some fruit material for macerating my feints-cut to then be recycled into next batch - or to infuse like a gin using cut brandy and a second small batch boiler/vapor infusion - eg;using grape pomace or whatever... Ongoing experiments with that and a sugarhead grappa in my near future with fresh pomace available later this season for some variations on grappa'ish spirits..

The gin method sounds like how Germans do Himbeergeist (raspberry spirit). They put fresh raspberries in a basket and the steam pulls flavor out of them into the distillate.

I find the best ferment ABV for my likes is to be in the 10%abv range to not stress the yeasties into producing off flavors and encourage experimentation and living on the edge - along with appropriate temp and nutrient schedule for best ferment environment.

Sounds good. What ABV do you generally end up with?

Jonalthor wrote: ↑Thu May 05, 2022 9:42 am

jonnys_spirit wrote: ↑Thu May 05, 2022 9:36 am Off topic but when I do sugar head brandies I'll also try to reserve some fruit material for macerating my feints-cut to then be recycled into next batch - or to infuse like a gin using cut brandy and a second small batch boiler/vapor infusion - eg;using grape pomace or whatever... Ongoing experiments with that and a sugarhead grappa in my near future with fresh pomace available later this season for some variations on grappa'ish spirits..

The gin method sounds like how Germans do Himbeergeist (raspberry spirit). They put fresh raspberries in a basket and the steam pulls flavor out of them into the distillate.

I find the best ferment ABV for my likes is to be in the 10%abv range to not stress the yeasties into producing off flavors and encourage experimentation and living on the edge - along with appropriate temp and nutrient schedule for best ferment environment.

Sounds good. What ABV do you generally end up with?

Schladerer is a favorite so experimenting with permutations of that protocol for the various Geist spirits..

In general I'll ferment to about 10%abv, three strip runs to somewhere between 25-40% total low wines abv then spirit run hearts cut ends up in the 120 proof range depending on cuts and spirit run charge abv... Pot stilled. I'll often top up the spirit run with low wines from strip runs, a feints cut from previous spirit runs, and some fresh wash/beer/wine for somewhere between a 1.5-double distillation protocol...

Cheers!
-j

NZChris wrote: ↑Tue May 03, 2022 2:25 pm If Schmickl's book hasn't got you making nice spirits yet, I'd suggest you bin it and start doing the research that Schmickl should have done before writing the book.

Six Rules to Buy or to Construct an Alcohol Still by Yourself
1. An alcohol still should be equipped with a steam thermometer, otherwise the still cannot be used appropriately to distill alcohol. Without a thermometer the heads and tails cannot be separated accurately with ease...

Taken from Schmickl's website.

I'd be interested to test this theory of a high abv wash carrying more flavour, but it does fly in the face of the real world experience of (I think) everyone here who's ever tried it. And having persued the website a little I'd be extremely cynical about anything he says.

Jonalthor wrote: ↑Thu May 05, 2022 8:15 am I've heard that more sugar leads to less flavor but my experience is otherwise. The authors actually state that the higher alcohol pre-distilling facilitates the vaporization of more of the volatile flavor compounds and thus gives you more flavor. (Many compounds are more soluble in and have more of an affinity with ethanol than water, which make sense.)

It might make sense to you, but I've never seen any research to back that up.

Adding sugar does not lead to less flavor, you get the same amount of flavor, but it is diluted by the extra alcohol from the added sugar.

Just my $.02 here, and yall take it for what its worth. Not much. I ain't got a white lab coat, aint got any degrees, running a simple pot and tried it a few different ways. Plus, I ain't got near the experience with fruit as some others on here have.
But, for MY taste, I use wild yeast mostly, but sometimes bakers or wine yeast if I find it.
No sugar. I ain't selling so I'm not worried about amount. I'm more concerned with taste.
Long slow cool ferment for fruit, except blackberries. (Those usually come up dry pretty quick.)
Stripping + Spirit run with a fruit loaded thumper. I've done slow singling runs and they're okay, but not great.
I tried a turbo yeast one time and decided that that stuff was not for me. Ended up using it to kill weeds, clean tools, etc...
But to make a long story shorter, I prefer wild yeast for fruit ferments.

This is just my opinion. And now I'm gonna take a nap and quit sipping during the day.
SF

This is all great input. I'd be curious to know what sort of methods the professionals like Schladerer use. So many people keep their trade secrets, so it makes it hard for us common folk to catch up with knowledge they have handed down from generation to generation--often keeping it in the family.

Makes me very grateful for this forum.

Jonalthor wrote: ↑Tue May 03, 2022 1:10 pm
What yeasts work for you to get the best tasting fruit brandies?

I get mashes close to 18% ABV and have done single distillations with a pot still.

Most likely, to get 18% alcohol means sugar was added.
Just my drunken opinion that's not the best way to make good brandy.
Traditionally, folks would ferment fruit with wild yeast.
EC-1118 is good, but according to Bubba, K1-v1116 is a better option.
On a side note.
Instead of adding sugar to a fruit fermentation. He will ferment the fruit with the sugar it naturally has.
Then add DIY neutral spirits a day or two before distilling, to extract the most flavor.

Last but not least.
Redistilling is always better than one run and done.

That Bubba sure do come up with some interesting concepts and advice.

shadylane wrote: ↑Thu May 05, 2022 8:22 pm
Most likely, to get 18% alcohol means sugar was added.

I've gotten a lot of negative responses about adding sugar yet Tater's "tried and true" fruit-berry recipe on the forum calls for this.

The only fruit micro-distillery I ever visited also added sugar. They made a very fine plum brandy (slivovitz)

Just my drunken opinion that's not the best way to make good brandy.
Traditionally, folks would ferment fruit with wild yeast.
EC-1118 is good, but according to Bubba, K1-v1116 is a better option.
On a side note.
Instead of adding sugar to a fruit fermentation. He will ferment the fruit with the sugar it naturally has.
Then add DIY neutral spirits a day or two before distilling, to extract the most flavor.

Last but not least.
Redistilling is always better than one run and done.

I've heard the problem with wild yeast is that it varies widely from place to place, and even with the age of the trees in an orchard. The end result of wild yeasts invariably involves a higher methanol content in your distillate. That's well-documented.
Thanks for the advice on commercial yeasts and double distilling. I will try a second distillation and compare how it comes out.
Thanks!

Saltbush Bill wrote: ↑Thu May 05, 2022 8:28 pm That Bubba sure do come up with some interesting concepts and advice.

He's an interesting character to say the least.
A fat, old gray headed fart, that cuts firewood and raising beef for a Hobbie.
As they say, "no lazy man ever made liquor" and even more so brandy.

K1-v1116 has an alcohol tolerance up to 18%. Interesting.

Jonalthor wrote: ↑Thu May 05, 2022 7:40 pm This is all great input. I'd be curious to know what sort of methods the professionals like Schladerer use.

You can get a fair idea by using Google. Their Kirsch uses about 10 kg of cherries for each 750ml bottle, so their method won't have much in common with what is written in Schmickl's book.

K1-V1116 has the qualities of EC-1118.
Plus, the ability to kill and consume wild yeast.
posting with NZ

NZChris wrote: ↑Thu May 05, 2022 9:05 pm
You can get a fair idea by using Google. Their Kirsch uses about 10 kg of cherries for each 750ml bottle, so their method won't have much in common with what is written in Schmickl's book.

Wow!

Jonalthor wrote: ↑Thu May 05, 2022 8:39 pm The end result of wild yeasts invariably involves a higher methanol content in your distillate. That's well-documented.

That's not well documented, nor do I agree with it.

Jonalthor wrote: ↑Thu May 05, 2022 8:39 pm The end result of wild yeasts invariably involves a higher methanol content in your distillate. That's well-documented.

Never heard that or read it anywhere before, any links to that information?

Jonalthor wrote: ↑Thu May 05, 2022 9:02 pm K1-v1116 has an alcohol tolerance up to 18%. Interesting.

It does, but because it can , does that mean you should?

Saltbush Bill wrote: ↑Thu May 05, 2022 10:40 pm

Jonalthor wrote: ↑Thu May 05, 2022 8:39 pm
K1-v1116 has an alcohol tolerance up to 18%. Interesting.

It does, but because it can , does that mean you should?

+1 Salty
18% isn't natural, nor makes for a healthy and happy fermentation.

I was just surprised.

I’m sure the speed at which you take the fermentation plus taking care not to create too much osmotic pressure on the yeast as you go, by gradually adding the sugar in increments, makes a big difference.

Sure. You can reduce osmotic stress by step feeding sugar. What’s the benefit though? Why not just make a larger ferment and also keep the abv in a range which also stresses the yeasties less? I mean if we’re already step feeding to minimize osmotic stress why not follow through and also minimize excessive abv stress?

Cheers,
-j

I reckon me and Bubba might have run in similar circles a long time ago...lol
The thing I really like about using the traditional wild yeast is the "local" flavor you end up with. Thats hard to get with store bought yeast.
All you can really do is try different methods and see what YOU like the best. Cause at the end of the day, you are the only one you have to please...(well, right after your significant other.)
Part of the fun of this hobby is trying different things. And you'll find that out that you'll get 15 opinions from 10 different members of just this site. And that's not counting what you can find from other sources.
Check out some of the fellers on here and look at their recipes they shared. Especially Cranky and the fellers like him. Those guys have forgot more about fruit than i can remember. And they know the science, where I'm just a hillbilly that does things (mostly) the way I was taught earlier in life.
Anyway, Goodluck in your endeavors and have fun with it.
SF

SassyFrass wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 10:59 am Part of the fun of this hobby is trying different things. And you'll find that out that you'll get 15 opinions from 10 different members of just this site. And that's not counting what you can find from other sources.

There's positives and negatives to this. It's a good challenge though. I just remind myself "I don't really know anything, and always have more to learn."

Check out some of the fellers on here and look at their recipes they shared. Especially Cranky and the fellers like him. Those guys have forgot more about fruit than i can remember. And they know the science, where I'm just a hillbilly that does things (mostly) the way I was taught earlier in life.

Excellent. Thanks for the tip

I owe a debt to the rum guys: Saltbush Bill & Buccaneer Bob. Those recipes have got me some great rum!