Why no T&T recipes w/cane vinegar

[Bolverk]

Anyway...

The cane vinegar should be here on Friday, I'll probably start the wash this weekend.

[HDNB]

i'm all for experimenting and posting results. i mean, how else am i going to shamelessly copy you?

i'm not even sure i'm getting this at all...have not chased down all those links yet, but i'm interested to learn the recipe protocol. Are you planning a live ferment with extra acid? or is it planned to make the mash and then add vinegar to the finished ferment in hopes of long chain fatty acid + additional acid + alcohol = esters?
are you going to add in variables like +time or +heat to see what happens?

i add a wee bit of citric acid on cool down after the enzymes have had an hour to 90 mins work in. I've seen problems adding too much to a live ferment, resulting in a PH stall.

anyway...tuned in to see what you come up with!

[Yummyrum]

Anyway...

The cane vinegar should be here on Friday, I'll probably start the wash this weekend.

Cool , and BTW , I understand your reasoning of using it in your known recipe so you can pick any differences .

Curious to know what Cane Vinegar tastes like . Malt ,, White , Rice , balsamic etc etc , all so different

But I read on a bottle of white Vinegar that it is made from Cane sugar , so maybe its similar to that

Edit : posted with HDNB

I am also a bit curious about when you’d add the vinegar . I would have thought after the fermentation and also as HDNB alluded to, maybe a long heat up to help with estification

[jonnys_spirit]

I think it's worth while making some varied craft vinegars from ferments / distilled spirits to use in your salad or something... Braggs Organic Cider Vinegar is not pasteurized so it has a mother - you can kick start any low ABV (6-8%abv) and make a good vinegar. Acetobacter convert etoh into vinegar and need O2 to do that. Proof whatever you want down to about 6-8%abv, add some mother and drop in an air-stone to flood it with O2 = vinegar. Wine, rum, bourbon, single-malt, sake, mead, whatever you might like

Cheers,
jonny

[Bolverk]

I'm open to suggestions... I typically ferment at 90°f once the fermentation stops, I'll kill the heat and let it set for another week.

My understanding from interviews and post is that Hamptons funky stuff is compromised of the following and is all in the fermenter.

40% dunder
30% skimmings
10% cane vinegar
10% muck
10% molasses

I dont have access to fresh skimmings so I'll just have to add water. I could use more dunder but I'm not that brave as I don't have access to marl clay to help buffer the pH (yeah oyster shell would probably work too and I'll have those on standby if the pH starts to crash.

The cool thing I like about the T&T is that everyone can do it with stuff that's pretty easy to source and reasonable to purchase... I know this isn't a requirement but it seems like they all fit this bill.
Keeping this simple is definitely my plan.

[Bolverk]

Curious to know what Cane Vinegar tastes like . Malt ,, White , Rice , balsamic etc etc , all so different

But I read on a bottle of white Vinegar that it is made from Cane sugar , so maybe its similar to that

I'll taste it against some others I have at the house. I've got malt, apple cider, balsamic, rice, and white... see how they compare.

[Saltbush Bill]

40% dunder
30% skimmings
10% cane vinegar
10% muck
10% molasses

Thats the equivalent of putting 10 L of Molasses in a 100L wash.
Without doing a whole heap of calculations Id say that if they did do it that way they would end up with a wash of 3 or 4 % abv...maybe even a bit less.
Seems awfully low to me in a commercial setting.
Maybe some one else has time to do the figures properly...I could be wrong.

[Yummyrum]

I’m no expert on the matter Salty , but I believe that Skimmings are removed from the top of squeezed cane juice and contain a fair amount of sugar .It is often filtered in some refineries to seperate the sugar left in it from the bio matter .

I agree with your estimation of the potential ABV from the Molasses , but I’m betting the skimmings ( and it claims 30% ) contribute a fair bit of fermentables to the mix . I’m not sure by how much , but like you say , it would have to be a reasonable ABV to make it worthwhile to be viable .

What does surprise me is the 40% Dunder
And if there is Dunder , what is the Funk ?

[SaltyStaves]

That breakdown of components is from Hampden Estates protocol, but it does not relate to a single vessel fermentation. They take the proceeds of multiple procedures (one of which is molasses fermentation) and combine them prior to distillation.

Think of it like making a 60L molasses fermentation and then diluting your finished wash with 30L of non-fermentable liquid. Makes your distilling day twice as long and you'll have no extra alcohol to show for it. Sound crazy? Well yeah, but it works for them and it sure as hell worked for me when I did it.

On cane vinegar, I'd say that the clean stuff you get in a bottle, will be a far cry from the waxy, dirty vinegar the distilleries make.

[Bolverk]

Thats the equivalent of putting 10 L of Molasses in a 100L wash.
Without doing a whole heap of calculations Id say that if they did do it that way they would end up with a wash of 3 or 4 % abv...maybe even a bit less.
Seems awfully low to me in a commercial setting.
Maybe some one else has time to do the figures properly...I could be wrong.

I didn't just make this up, these numbers come from watching dozens of interviews and hours and hours of reading, piecing together puzzles pieces as they let bits of info out. Believe me or don't... im not here to try and convince you.

And yes, as Yummyrum has stated, the skimmings contain a lot of their fermentable sugars.

[Bolverk]

What does surprise me is the 40% Dunder
And if there is Dunder , what is the Funk ?

Me too! I'm really curious about this marl clay they use as it must be an awesome buffer.

[Bolverk]

At 18:41 of this video they mention using the cane acid in the wash

[Bolverk]

Think of it like making a 60L molasses fermentation and then diluting your finished wash with 30L of non-fermentable liquid. Makes your distilling day twice as long and you'll have no extra alcohol to show for it. Sound crazy? Well yeah, but it works for them and it sure as hell worked for me when I did it.

On cane vinegar, I'd say that the clean stuff you get in a bottle, will be a far cry from the waxy, dirty vinegar the distilleries make.

I haven't read that, but it seems plausible, 40% is a lot of dunder. But then again from what I've read fission yeast is way more osmotollerant so a high sg wash is also possible.

[Saltbush Bill]

I didn't just make this up, these numbers come from watching dozens of interviews and hours and hours of reading, piecing together puzzles pieces as they let bits of info out. Believe me or don't... im not here to try and convince you.

I wasn't saying that you made it up,I was simply stating that with that amount molasses it would be a very low ABV wash.

I believe that Skimmings are removed from the top of squeezed cane juice and contain a fair amount of sugar

Your right Yummy I wasn't taking the skimmings into account.

They take the proceeds of multiple procedures (one of which is molasses fermentation) and combine them prior to distillation.
Think of it like making a 60L molasses fermentation and then diluting your finished wash with 30L of non-fermentable liquid. Makes your distilling day twice as long and you'll have no extra alcohol to show for it. Sound crazy? Well yeah, but it works for them and it sure as hell worked for me when I did it.

Thanks Saltystaves, it makes more sense when you put it that way.

[Bolverk]

Vinegar arrived today.

SBB got in my head, so I've got to order some more molasses.... experiment is delayed until it arrives.

[Yummyrum]

Says diluted with water to 5% acidity .
Wonder if you can get the undiluted stuff

[Bolverk]

Says diluted with water to 5% acidity .
Wonder if you can get the undiluted stuff

How strong you thinking? Aceditc acid is pretty easy to get here.

[Dougmatt]

I have nothing to add, but want to say I’m very interested in hearing your experiment results as well.

[shadylane]

... I believe that Skimmings are removed from the top of squeezed cane juice and contain a fair amount of sugar .

I suspect the skimmings may also have nutrients.

[OtisT]

Can I have a link to that please.....sounds like a load of marketing BS to me.

Maybe it is...

https://zulka.com/switch-to-zulka/

https://www.eatlikenoone.com/zulka-more ... review.htm

I wonder how they evaporate the water out? It they boil it, then this stuff is made the same way the Panela from sugardaddy is made. Panela definitely does not give the same results as processed sugar. There is a cool video floating around here on HD somewhere that shows how sugardady’s panela is made, not a cartoon like this was.

Panela makes a very smooth drop, but it does not have what I would call a traditional rum smell. That is why I add a gallon of good molasses to 50 pounds of panela, giving it a light rum smell but still smooth. I think it’s more likely one would notice esters created by adding vinegar to this lighter rum than a funky all molasses rum. I’ll be interested in reading about the OP’s results. It may inspire me to play with creating more esters again. It’s been a few years.

Someone mentions Mt Gay was made with vinegar, and I really like that rum.

Otis

[Yummyrum]

Says diluted with water to 5% acidity .
Wonder if you can get the undiluted stuff

How strong you thinking? Aceditc acid is pretty easy to get here.

Have no idea Bolverk . I was just thinking that the Rum distilleries that use it would most likely make their own onsite . I believe it ( cane vinegar ) can range from 5-20% acetic acid w/v .
But I’d imagine if you wanted the strength of 20% , just use 4x as much and reduce the water added to the ferment .

[Saltbush Bill]

I wonder how they evaporate the water out?

If you look at the two links provided....I forget exactly where I found it.
They say it's done under vacuum......the same way all raw sugar crystals are made......boiled under vacuum.

[Bolverk]

Have no idea Bolverk . I was just thinking that the Rum distilleries that use it would most likely make their own onsite . I believe it ( cane vinegar ) can range from 5-20% acetic acid w/v .
But I’d imagine if you wanted the strength of 20% , just use 4x as much and reduce the water added to the ferment .

Interesting idea... In that video I posted above, they say they use between 5-20% cane acid... depending on the mark they are making. You'd have to make your own vinegar to make that worth while, the gallon of 5% I got was $30. Well, either that or it maybe time to revisit the pure acids thread

[Bolverk]

Panela makes a very smooth drop, but it does not have what I would call a traditional rum smell. That is why I add a gallon of good molasses to 50 pounds of panela, giving it a light rum smell but still smooth. I think it’s more likely one would notice esters created by adding vinegar to this lighter rum than a funky all molasses rum. I’ll be interested in reading about the OP’s results. It may inspire me to play with creating more esters again. It’s been a few years.

Someone mentions Mt Gay was made with vinegar, and I really like that rum.

Otis

I have yet to use panela, I've got 12.5 pounds sitting here waiting to start a batch. I had to go though a restaurant supplier since im waiting for sugar daddy to get back in the office. Interestingly I read somewhere that panela may produce some additional esters due to the potentially higher amounts of cane wax, which I guess make more fatty acid esters.

[OtisT]

I wonder how they evaporate the water out?

If you look at the two links provided....I forget exactly where I found it.
They say it's done under vacuum......the same way all raw sugar crystals are made......boiled under vacuum.

So sugardaddy panela is not made the same way, because it is boiled in the open air. No vaccuum.

[Bolverk]

Well the vinegar taste test went as one might expect.

The distilled white vinegar tasted exactly like it smelled. Just a vinegar bite, no depth, and not interesting at all. It was diluted to 5% from the factory.

The Bragg apple cider vinegar was factory diluted to 5%, it tasted ok... tasted like a very dry apple cider, the vinegar seemed to be a lot more bitey on the tongue. There was a lot of flavor there but the vinegar was so overpowering it was hard to pull anything out of it. Other than using it as a vinegar mother I could not see using this in a wash/mash. Its great on ribs though

Malted vinegar, also factory diluted to 5% was good. It has an almost sweet taste with a mouth feel similar to oats when used in whiskey. It had a lot more complexity, but it was hard to pick out with the vinegar overpowering everything. I could easily see using this in a whiskey to sour it or make a higher ester whiskey. Coincidentally I put this on a lot foods I eat.

Cane vinegar is ok tasting, it had a similar vegetal, soy like taste to what my dunder tastes like. It did have some sweetness and was not unpleasant.

Sorry I thought I had some balsamic and rice wine vinegar but I guess I'm out at the moment.

[Dougmatt]

I'm open to suggestions... I typically ferment at 90°f once the fermentation stops, I'll kill the heat and let it set for another week.

My understanding from interviews and post is that Hamptons funky stuff is compromised of the following and is all in the fermenter.

40% dunder
30% skimmings
10% cane vinegar
10% muck
10% molasses

I dont have access to fresh skimmings so I'll just have to add water. I could use more dunder but I'm not that brave as I don't have access to marl clay to help buffer the pH (yeah oyster shell would probably work too and I'll have those on standby if the pH starts to crash.

The cool thing I like about the T&T is that everyone can do it with stuff that's pretty easy to source and reasonable to purchase... I know this isn't a requirement but it seems like they all fit this bill.
Keeping this simple is definitely my plan.

Here’s a recipe from Charles Allan’s book on Jamaican Rum:

Capacity of fermenting cistern 2,000 gallons.

Skimmings (fresh) 620 gallons at 12 brix
Dunder 760 gallons at 24 brix
Acid 220 gallons at 8 brix
Molasses 200 gallons
Flavour 160 gallons at 8 brix (aka “muck”)

[Dougmatt]

Would have loved to sit in on this presentation. Seems like the acid is added into the ferment based on recipes and process flows I’ve found.

https://www.wirspa.com/high-ester-rum-p ... an-wisdom/

[Bolverk]

Here’s a recipe from Charles Allan’s book on Jamaican Rum:

Capacity of fermenting cistern 2,000 gallons.

Skimmings (fresh) 620 gallons at 12 brix
Dunder 760 gallons at 24 brix
Acid 220 gallons at 8 brix
Molasses 200 gallons
Flavour 160 gallons at 8 brix (aka “muck”)

Nice! So my research was damn close!

That comes out to
31% skimmings
38% dunder
11% acid
10% molasses
8% muck
(Only 98% but out of 2000g available space the remainder should be head space)

Thank you for this!

Now I've just got to save all my dunder from my next run, and find some way of simulating skimmings... hmmm, maybe I'll use evaporated I'll cane juice

[Bolverk]

Would have loved to sit in on this presentation. Seems like the acid is added into the ferment based on recipes and process flows I’ve found.

https://www.wirspa.com/high-ester-rum-p ... an-wisdom/

I love original documents like this! Thank you for sharing!