Why no T&T recipes w/cane vinegar

[Tōtōchtin]

It seems to strange not to see this included since many distillers use a large portion of it in their recipes. What are your reasons for not including it?
Tōtō

[NZChris]

Who are they?

What are they producing?

[Chauncey]

viewtopic.php?t=70788

[Bolverk]

I remember reading somewhere the Hampton uses something like 10% cane vinegar in their higher ester rum washes. Seems like a good enough place to start.

[shadylane]

Why no T&T recipes w/cane vinegar.

Forgive me.
I'm not a fan of torturing yeast with vinegar in the name of high ester Rum.
Pro's may claim to do it, but it doesn't seem right, nor taste right when I try it.

[NZChris]

Why no T&T recipes w/cane vinegar.

Forgive me.
I'm not a fan of torturing yeast with vinegar in the name of high ester Rum.
Pro's may claim to do it, but it doesn't seem right, nor taste right when I try it.

1) That isn't how the rum manufacturers use the vinegar created in the trash cistern.

2) I don't know if rum is what is being asked about.

What are you asking about, Tōtō?

[Renhoekk]

Toto - can you elaborate on how “large amounts” are used, and in what?

[Yummyrum]

What are your reasons for not including it?
Tōtō

To get recipes approved for T&T forum , they must be definitive and tried and had the thumbs up by at least 3 or more members .

High Ester Rum has been toyed with by a few but it has not reached a level where the same recipe proved to have been successful and replicated and tested by enough members .

I’d suggest you look in the experimental Rum section and see what others have done .

[Bushman]

What are your reasons for not including it?
Tōtō

To get recipes approved for T&T forum , they must be definitive and tried and had the thumbs up by at least 3 or more members .

High Ester Rum has been toyed with by a few but it has not reached a level where the same recipe proved to have been successful and replicated and tested by enough members .

I’d suggest you look in the experimental Rum section and see what others have done .

Glad I read all the comments before posting. I was going to give the definition of how recipes make it into the Tried & True recipe section. The only thing I would add is that someone also has to nominate a recipe and others like you said have to agree.

[Bolverk]

Anyone have an economical source for cane vinegar in the US? its not really something I want to make, but I'll buy a gallon and throw it in my next ferment.

[Bolverk]

Alright, well I've got a gallon of Steen brand cane vinegar on its way, when it gets here I'll do a 10g wash.

If this turn out good I'll definitely need to find a more economical place to get the vinegar.

1g Golden Barrel blackstrap molasses
8lb Zulka Morena cane sugar
7g water
1g cane vinegar
1g dunder
1tbsp of saf instant bakers yeast (under pitch, I know)
2 Multivitamins
Pinch of Epsom salt.

I'll ferment at 90°f, under pitching and fermenting hot should promote the formation of esters.

(This is my go to recipe I'm just subbing 1g of water for the vinegar.)

[Tōtōchtin]

I only mentioned T&T recipes because they have been repeated by others here and proven to work. Which made me suspect about my reading on vinegar.
Yesterday after reading about fission yeast here got me bumping all over Google. Ran across an article from a trade magazine that sent me off in other direction in search of how vinegar helped with fission yeast. I need my phone to look up the study of producers using vinegar. 3 that I remember are Hampton,long pond(not positive on the name but I remember pond is part of it) Appleton and mount gay. There was another company from Trinidad.
What surprised me they were using between 9 and 20 per cent of vinegar in their wash. Add in the dunder and for some muck there's not much room for the molasses or juice. The acetic acid seems what they were after. I will add some sites I ve read from yesterday,might be old news for most of you. There is a study from China that was on making wines with cane juice and good info on acids produced from adding vinegar to the wash. That too is on my phone which I left on the ranch.
I never ran across the experimental rum section yet that I know of, but with my lack of memory I might have posted there all ready.

https://distillique.co.za/blogs/default ... stillation
https://distillique.co.za/blogs/default ... stillation

This interesting article comes from a dubious source, the higher education conflicts with the criminals I've met from there.
https://openrepository.aut.ac.nz/server ... 7d/content


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7714267/


This study was with the article on cane juice making wine but I can't find it today.
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... cane_Juice

https://distillique.co.za/blogs/default ... a-true-rum

And this is the article that got me started looking into vinegar
https://cocktailwonk.com/2020/06/jamaic ... -acid.html

I look for that one article when I get my phone back.
Tōtō

[Tōtōchtin]

Shadylane, that article about making wines from cane juice if I remember correctly mentioned one reason they used the vinegar was to allow the wild yeast to flourish in the beginning. I'll track that down, it's got to be in my history on the phone. I have also read stressing your yeast in the beginning of a ferment with rum is a good thing.
T

[Saltbush Bill]

8lb Zulka Morena cane sugar

Why on earth ,if you are going to go to the trouble of trying to make a really funky rum full of flavour would you put sugar in the recipe?
I'm pretty sure you will find that the commercial outfits that make these kinds of Rums use only one main ingredient.
"Mollases " and it sure won't be the fancy stuff at that.

[Bolverk]

8lb Zulka Morena cane sugar

Why on earth ,if you are going to go to the trouble of trying to make a really funky rum full of flavour would you put sugar in the recipe?
I'm pretty sure you will find that the commercial outfits that make these kinds of Rums use only one main ingredient.
"Mollases " and it sure won't be the fancy stuff at that.

2 reasons: im very familiar with this recipe so I should be able to detect small changes (it makes for a nice medium body molasses funk). Also because the all black strap is so funky I can't taste anything but the molasses... not a complaint, I just want to see/taste how much the cane vinegar changes things.

[Tōtōchtin]

Panela blanca might be a better choice then that sugar. Something to compare next time.
On another note what little I have discovered so far is fresh vinegar was mentioned more then canned vinegar.

The extra esters made because of the vinegar might really make a noticeable difference when you use the dunder from that run.
Tōtō

[Bolverk]

Panela blanca might be a better choice then that sugar. Something to compare next time.
On another note what little I have discovered so far is fresh vinegar was mentioned more then canned vinegar.

The extra esters made because of the vinegar might really make a noticeable difference when you use the dunder from that run.
Tōtō

Thanks, I'll look into it. That zulka Morena stuff is good, its evaporated cane juice, nothing but the moisture is removed (according to the info on the company website). It's not cooked like panela, jaggery, or molasses so it's sugars aren't camelized so no brown color.

I'm sure since the rum distilleries have excess rum it's more economical for them to use it for their vinegar. I'd bet fresh is still better, but im still not going to start making my own vinegar just for rum

[NZChris]

It sounds like you are hoping that a host of industry secrets have been condensed into a T&T to spoon feed to beginners on a forum. I don't like your chances of finding that anywhere on the net.

Do your research and break down each step into it's individual components and research each, one at a time, creating your own method as you go. Take into consideration your climate, cane varieties, pressing hardware & ability, juice or molasses, the style of rum/Cachaça you are aiming for, etc.

Are you happy to have a muck pit and a trash pit in your yard, or to find a way to simulate them without upsetting "Her Indoors"?

[Saltbush Bill]

That zulka Morena stuff is good, its evaporated cane juice, nothing but the moisture is removed (according to the info on the company website)

Can I have a link to that please.....sounds like a load of marketing BS to me.

[Sporacle]

That zulka Morena stuff is good, its evaporated cane juice, nothing but the moisture is removed (according to the info on the company website)

Can I have a link to that please.....sounds like a load of marketing BS to me.

This is not normal salt ....... it's evaporated sea water

[Bolverk]

Can I have a link to that please.....sounds like a load of marketing BS to me.

Maybe it is...

https://zulka.com/switch-to-zulka/

https://www.eatlikenoone.com/zulka-more ... review.htm

[Saltbush Bill]

Everything I read there says its normal everyday raw sugar.
Millions and millions of tonnes of raw sugar are made world wide each year.......it's even made a 20 min drive from where I am now.
There is nothing special or different about that raw sugar than any other that I can see.
Happy to be proven wrong if I've somehow missed something in one of those links.

[Bolverk]

I dunno man, when used by itself it tastes closer to bacardi silver than sugar shine... all I can say is try it yourself and see.

Edit to add: I don't think it's anything special, it just raw sugar. But where I'm located even raw sugar is more processed than this stuff. You are lucky to live only 20 min from a sugar mill and blessed to be able to get molasses as good at an affordable price. I can get 5g of blackstrap for $35 but it costs $40 just to ship it.

[Saltbush Bill]

I'm sorry, but raw sugar is raw sugar

all I can say is try it yourself and see.

I don't need to try it ......I've been using it in various things I make for years.

[Tōtōchtin]

Ssb why are you getting your panties all bunched up because someone is trying something...
You guys preach try it and see what happens then return and tell us about it.
I could see casting shade if someone was wanting to try something dangerous or was harping on your recipe in your thread.
Tōtō

[Bolverk]

I don't need to try it ......I've been using it in various things I make for years.

Cool, try it or don't, it's no skin off my back either way.

The point of this thread wasn't to critique my recipe, it was to talk about a T&T recipe using using cane vinegar. I only offered up mine so I could show how I was going to use the cane vinegar. I know how my recipe is supposed to taste, so it will allow me to smell and taste just how much the cane vinegar changes things. If the vinegar is amazing I'll try it in an all molasses next.

[The Baker]

Just maybe there is a use for the batch of UJ that fermented into vinegar??!!

Geoff

[Tōtōchtin]

Sbb I was a little blunt, I was waiting to get in a small plane to go to the airport. . After reading it again it was a bit harsh more then my usual.
T

[Bolverk]

Just maybe there is a use for the batch of UJ that fermented into vinegar??!!

Not sure man, does it have that corny taste you get from ujssm?

I dont know that I'd put it in a rum ferment, but hell who am I to judge, give it a shot. Eythl acetate gives a fruity smell/taste it could go well in a whiskey in the right proportions.

[Saltbush Bill]

Ssb why are you getting your panties all bunched up because someone is trying something...

. That zulka Morena stuff is good, its evaporated cane juice, nothing but the moisture is removed (according to the info on the company website).

Because other Newbies read stuff like that and believe it..and whatever you or anyone else wants to believes it is in the end just plain old raw sugar made just the way all other raw sugar is made...