Why no T&T recipes w/cane vinegar

[jonnys_spirit]

If I'm following this right I'd think that fresh cane juice skimmings (or straight fresh cane juice vinegar) turned into vinegar would be full of flavor. I wouldn't expect something processed to be quite the same as fresh. If that's what you're after.

I got a hold of some fresh sorghum juice a couple years ago that I fermented as straight juice. I didn't cook it or anything. It had tons of flavor and solids as would anything made from it. I did not make any into vinegar but still have some of the spirit and the feints I may use in a rum or rumski/sorghumski at some point .

Might be worth making it yourself. Just ferment it then inoculate it with a mother and aerate it. Should be fairly quick if aerated and low ABV like 6-8%abv.

Cheers!
-jonny

[Bolverk]

If I'm following this right I'd think that fresh cane juice skimmings (or straight fresh cane juice vinegar) turned into vinegar would be full of flavor. I wouldn't expect something processed to be quite the same as fresh. If that's what you're after.

I got a hold of some fresh sorghum juice a couple years ago that I fermented as straight juice. I didn't cook it or anything. It had tons of flavor and solids as would anything made from it. I did not make any into vinegar but still have some of the spirit and the feints I may use in a rum or rumski/sorghumski at some point .

Might be worth making it yourself. Just ferment it then inoculate it with a mother and aerate it. Should be fairly quick if aerated and low ABV like 6-8%abv.

Cheers!
-jonny

After tasting distilled white and cane vinegar side by side I believe you are 100% correct in that. I've made mead for years and the difference between store bought pasturized honey and locally harvested raw honey is like night and day.

Sadly im in AZ, local/fresh cane juice is simply not something I can get in any real quantities. If this cane vinegar thing is really as good as I'm hoping, then I'll probably try to make my own. But in the effort of creating something simple that every one can do (T&T) this should be a repeatable recipe, so I'll stick with something everyone can purchase, if they want to substitute it with homemade vinegar I fully support that decision.

[Swamptrout]

1g Golden Barrel blackstrap molasses
8lb Zulka Morena cane sugar
7g water
1g cane vinegar
1g dunder
1tbsp of saf instant bakers yeast (under pitch, I know)
2 Multivitamins
Pinch of Epsom salt.

I'll ferment at 90°f, under pitching and fermenting hot should promote the formation of esters.

(This is my go to recipe I'm just subbing 1g of water for the vinegar.)

I'm open to suggestions... I typically ferment at 90°f once the fermentation stops, I'll kill the heat and let it set for another week.

My understanding from interviews and post is that Hamptons funky stuff is compromised of the following and is all in the fermenter.

40% dunder
30% skimmings
10% cane vinegar
10% muck
10% molasses

I dont have access to fresh skimmings so I'll just have to add water..

So which recipe are you going with now?

I've never tasted any of these high ester rums so not even sure how they taste but curious.

[Bolverk]

So which recipe are you going with now?

Sorry for the confusion...

Going to do an all molasses now, since i don't have enough dunder saved up for 40% dunder recipe. I ordered 5g of blackstrap a few days ago, it should be here by next weekend.

10.5g batch:
3g Golden Barrel blackstrap molasses
5.5g water (+/- as I get close to full I'll take a gravity reading and make sure my SG is not over 1.150, my desired SG is going to be 1.1)
1g steen brand cane vinegar
1g dunder
1tbsp of saf instant bakers yeast
2 Multivitamins
Pinch of Epsom salt

This should finish at around 8% abv

(I'm going to save all the dunder from this batch to try the dunder heavy recipe later)

[Yummyrum]

Going to do an all molasses now, since i don't have enough dunder saved up for 40% dunder recipe.

Bolverk
I really think you should stick with your “plan A “ and do your normal Rum wash adding the Cane vinegar and seeing if you can tell a difference .

Don’t be in a hurry to bang out a T&T just for the sake of it .

Nearly every T&T was the result of many years experimenting and perfecting .

[Bolverk]

Bolverk
I really think you should stick with your “plan A “ and do your normal Rum wash adding the Cane vinegar and seeing if you can tell a difference .

Don’t be in a hurry to bang out a T&T just for the sake of it .

Nearly every T&T was the result of many years experimenting and perfecting .

Yummyrum, I appreciate it.

The all molasses will be more in line with a funky Jamaican rum especially since i dont have the 4g of dunder i need for the heavy dunder wash (this will be another recipe i need to work out the bugs on because there are so many potential problems with using that much dunder). Plus its not as if I dont understand how my all molasses recipe tastes, I just don't make this one as often because it's more expensive.... but it does taste better.

Both recipes are basically the same except you're subbing molasses for sugar/water. If someone wanted to try my lighter rum recipe I'd still encourage it, it makes for a nice medium rum depending on how your run it through the still, I tend to do it as a 1.5 run.

I'm not in a hurry for the T&T, this is just good timing. I've been wanting to add vinegar to a wash for a while, this just encouraged me to do it sooner rather than later.

[Dougmatt]

Question I keep coming back to is, isn’t dunder a vinegar / acid as well? Doesn’t acetobactor “ferment” open air dunder? If so, then is cane vinegar just a different acid contributor?

I can’t seem to find anything on why cane vinegar adds a uniqueness to the mix or what that uniqueness is but it’s obviously in a lot of Jamaican recipes…. I make mostly panela rum (it’s my standard and preferred recipe now) and the dunder from that ferments into a very “vinegar” like solution. I’m wondering what cane vinegar would bring to the party.

[Bolverk]

Question I keep coming back to is, isn’t dunder a vinegar / acid as well? Doesn’t acetobactor “ferment” open air dunder? If so, then is cane vinegar just a different acid contributor?

I can’t seem to find anything on why cane vinegar adds a uniqueness to the mix or what that uniqueness is but it’s obviously in a lot of Jamaican recipes…. I make mostly panela rum (it’s my standard and preferred recipe now) and the dunder from that ferments into a very “vinegar” like solution. I’m wondering what cane vinegar would bring to the party.

My understanding is no, dunder is not a vinegar although it does become more acidic. I suppose it could be the media in which a cane vinegar is induced.

I think the reason vinegar is used is because it's an easy source of aceditc acid which when combined with alcohols make the following esters

Eythl acetate (fruity in low quantity, solvent like in high)
Isoamyl acetate (ripe banana)
Isobutyl acetate (fruity)
Phenylethyl acetate (floral)

[Yummyrum]

Question I keep coming back to is, isn’t dunder a vinegar / acid as well? Doesn’t acetobactor “ferment” open air dunder? If so, then is cane vinegar just a different acid contributor

Doug
Vinegar is made from alcohol . Since there is no alcohol left in the Dunder ( it is all boiled out in the still ) there can be no vinegar made from it . However , Dunder is acidic like vinegar .

[Dougmatt]

Question I keep coming back to is, isn’t dunder a vinegar / acid as well? Doesn’t acetobactor “ferment” open air dunder? If so, then is cane vinegar just a different acid contributor

Doug
Vinegar is made from alcohol . Since there is no alcohol left in the Dunder ( it is all boiled out in the still ) there can be no vinegar made from it . However , Dunder is acidic like vinegar .

Thanks Yummy. I knew it was made from the residual alcohol, and had read some threads taking bout vinegar being made in the dunder. I thought, well, when I shut down I’m still getting alcohol off the spout, so there’s still alcohol and probably it does vinegar…. Thinking about it more with this context, I guess the point is the remaining Abv in the pot is so low the impact is very low in the dunder versus making a true cane wine vinegar.

Makes better sense now, thank you.

Edit: example threads: viewtopic.php?p=7654791#p7654791 and viewtopic.php?t=58551

The second one has me thinking about how to use my dunder + heads and tails to make a vinegar to add

[Rumhead]

Thanks for bringing this to my attention again, found some scribbles about it my Rum notebook.
This is something ill be expererimenting with too, when i have found my standard English/Heavy type recipe. I finally got an awesome hook on A+ Blackstrap. Still dont think my heavy recipe will be all molasses, probably a panela/molasses recipe.

Cane vinegar isnt available up here at N55 Latitude so i will have to make my own. Thinking a panela wash diluted to resemble cane juice might be a good substitute? Its sugardaddys panela, and another variety i get in my city.

My first real proper rum wash is finished, and has been för 2 weeks, my next 2 will be the same recipe but stilled when finished. I would like to see what letting the wash lay on the leees(secondary fermentation) brings..

Hampden uses up to 3 month ferments, my thinking is that those ferment are ready some time earlier than 3 moths, and that they let it lie on the lees.
This part, is pretty important, I think. Maybe they even ph control it, that i dont know.

Atleast from what i have got to me researching High Ester rum production practices.

The first wash will be stilled next week.

25L
4kg panela
1kg A+ grade blackstrap
Slightly underpitched
Some nutes, not much
No aeration
Heated to 34c and kept there.
Sg 1,070 Fg 1,000

[Nanacooks]

This is really an interesting idea. I will be doing some more reading up on the links provided. I began my fermenting journey with things like kraut, hot sauces, and vinegars before journeying into distillation. I have some banana, pineapple, apple cider, and maybe a couple of others that I have made over the last year. It has me wondering if any of those flavor profiles would help to add those specific esters, or an essence of them to the rums. I have not done a rum yet, I have a 5 gallon bucket waiting and ready to go when I make the leap, but I have been short on time, space, and figured the warmer weather would also be quite beneficial. I can't wait to see how your tests develop!

[Bolverk]

5g / 58.5lbs of blackstrap arrived today.

[Bolverk]

Started the batch

11g batch:
3g Golden Barrel blackstrap molasses
6g water
1g steen brand cane vinegar
1g dunder
1tbsp of saf instant bakers yeast
2 Multivitamins
Pinch of Epsom salt

Added 3g of blackstrap at room temp (70°f) to 15g fermentor barrel, heated 4g of water to 150°f ish and added it to the molasses. Once thoroughly mixed I added the dunder and vinegar, mixed again. Add remaining 2g of water at approx 90°, added crushed multivitamins, mixed again. Sprinked yeast on the top and set my heating belt to 90°f.

Just some reference numbers
Starting gravity 1.104 (I had to add .5g water to the original recipe to get the gravity down, corrections made to the recipe above) depending on my final gravity I expect this to finish out at approx 8% ABV.
Starting pH 5.2

[Tōtōchtin]

Bolverk will you be adding more yeast and nutrients later?
Tōtō

[Bolverk]

Bolverk will you be adding more yeast and nutrients later?
Tōtō

I wasn't planning on it.

[Bolverk]

Update: Fermentation slowed way down yesterday, I checked the pH and it was down to 4.1. I tossed in about a 1/4c of oyster shells and fermentation is picking back up.

[Bolverk]

When it has come to using all molasses to make Rum , I have never found any reason to add buffers .
The Buffer is already in the Molasses as part of the sugar refining process .
During refining they add Calcium Hydroxide as part of the Clarifying process . Then Phosphoric acid is added to lower the pH again . This is done at least twice .

Ever tried to adjust the pH of an all Molasses wash ??? Try it .
Forget a teaspoon of citric acid or a few sea shells . We are talking about several 100mls of concentrated Hydrochloric acid or 1/2 a cup of or more of Calcium Hydroxide . The stuff is so ph solid that all the CO2 created during fermentation barely moves it by 0.5pH .

Its nothing at all like a sugar wash .

Hey Yummyrum, I think I found what will wipe out the buffer in a molasses wash...

This ferment needs constant attention. I think the combination of the acidity from the dunder and the vinegar wiped out whatever buffer was in the molasses from processing. Whatever acid the yeast are creating its almost a chore to keep the pH above 4. I brought it up to 5 and it's already back down to 4.2 with thats addition of 2c of oyster shells.

Its crazy, I've never had to fight to keep the pH up on a molasses wash like this. On the next batch I'll build in a buffer (Arroyo's process), I've got some CaO and sulfuric acid on the way for the next run.

[NZChris]

Hang the shell in a string bag so that you can check how much is left.

[Bolverk]

I'll do that, thanks

[Bolverk]

Well the wash is stuck, it's currently sitting at 1.090 pH 4.2. It was slowly working away (like the surface of a coke poured into a glass), not a super vigorous ferment like I'm used to.

I'm out of ideas, I've got a bag of shells hanging in it to buffer the pH added a week ago. It hasn't move in 2 days. The only thing I can think of is to make a yeast bomb to see if I can jump start it.

Y'all have any ideas?

Thanks in advance

[Tōtōchtin]

Bolverk, I meet a man down on the beach during the holidays. He works in a distillery that makes bad brandy down here. He also plays with rum(no dunder or muck). He told me once the ferment stops to add another type of yeast and add a little Dap with dead yeast. I can't remember the other yeast and like others he didn't mention the amount of dead yeast. He feels the yeast sucking up cane juice goes awry and another yeast is needed to finish. He sent over a 1 week old bottle of his rum, I hope his advice is better then the taste of his fresh rum. When I get some french oak I'll toss some in. Suerte T
I just remembered it was a wine yeast. Probably what he uses to make brandy.

[Bolverk]

Probably tastes like crap in part because of the DAP.
Can speak to much else.


I cooked off about 1/4c of yeast for nutritants, added some cold water until the temp was 90°f , added a splash of my wash, a pinch of Epsom salt, 1tbsp of yeast and let let sit for about 15 minutes. I just pitched it in the tank so we'll see if it takes off. The gravity and pH were well within range, so the only thing I suspect is that I needed more nutritants, the extra yeast was just to compensate for the under pitch in the beginning so at this point it has the proper amount of yeast added.

[Yummyrum]

It was slowly working away (like the surface of a coke poured into a glass), not a super vigorous ferment like I'm used to.

Sounds pretty normal to me . Let it be . Whats the fermentation temp ?

Rum does like a high temp . Mid 30°C’s it is happy
Keep under 40°C though.

[Bolverk]

Thanks

It's sitting at 92f

[higgins]

Bolverk, my last rum was very similar to your last one, but without the cane vinegar.

5 g Golden Barrel Blackstrap Molasses dissolved in 3 gallons hot water/1 gal dunder
mix in 2 tbsp of DAP
add 16 gallons water (hot/cold) to 80°F
26 gallon batch
OG 1.082

Oxygenated well with airstone and bottled O2
Pitched 4 tbsp rehydrated Distillers yeast

I hung a mesh bag containing a small handful of chicken grit in the fermenter.
My well water is pH 7.4, moderately hard (37 ppm Ca, 13 ppm Mg, 147 ppm Total hardness), low buffering capacity (20 ppm HCO).
I know I need extra buffering capacity in sugar washes to avoid a pH crash. Rather than trying to figure out how much CaCO3 to add up front, I just use a handful of chicken grit - let the wash dissolve it as it needs it.

Once it started there was no foam cap - slightly fizzy coke is a good description. I just let it go for a couple of weeks.

FG 1.015
ABV 8.9%

I did not expect blackstrap molasses to achieve an 82% attenuation during fermentation.

Turned out pretty good, though less flavorful than I was shooting for.

[Bolverk]

It seems to be going now after the re-pitch.

It looked like coke for about 10 days (after I corrected the initial ph crash) and I was content with the slow ferment, in fact I've read that a slower ferment can actually make a good rum better, but it stalled and was completely flat for 2 days.

I've never had a wash that ive struggled to keep going like this, especially with an all molasses. This is a recipe I've made a dozen times and it typically ferments down to 1.040s in about 8 days, the only difference here is I subbed 1 gallon of water for the cane vinegar.

[Tōtōchtin]

Probably tastes like crap in part because of the DAP.
Can speak to much else.


Do you believe DAP causes flavor changes because of its taste or what those compounds do to the wash?
T

[Saltbush Bill]

Bolverk would it not be better to start your own thread in "Rum" or "Recipe Development" rather than continuing to post your experiments in someone else's thread that was originally a question about "Why no T&T recipes w/cane vinegar"

[Bolverk]

My bad, I'll continue there