Pumped Reflux Side Column CM Still

[bunny]

Ok it’s been awhile as I have not done much distilling this summer. It has been a busy summer and a hot one, didn’t need to add a bunch of extra heat to the house.
So sorry for the delay but here it is.
I did my cleaning runs shortly after finishing the build and spent some time learning how it wants to be run.
I recently ran 24 gallons of Shady’s Sugar Shine low wines at 40% ABV
I did a slow ramp up to full power over 15 minutes.
Full power = 26.5, 18.5 and 18.5 amps @ 240 volts.
It took approximately 30 minutes to come up to temperature to produce vapor.
I turned down the power to 18.9, 14 and 14 amps and let column stabilize for 20 minutes.
After 20 minutes I turned down the flow meters to 0.13 gallons for deph #1, 0.7 gallons for deph #2 and 0.59 for the product condenser.
I produced 1.75 liters approximately every 15 minutes +/- of 95.6% ABV for the first 16 jars it then slowed down from 16 all the way up to 26 minutes for the last 4.5 jars when I shut down. The last jar (only 1 liter) dropped to 95.1% ABV.
I didn’t change the power or reflux throughout the run and just let it do its thing. Btw the reflux pump was set at 516 on the controller throughout the run.
This is a very slow setting as the the pump maxes out around 4200.
I probably could have used a smaller pump but the extra pumping capacity was appreciated during the clean in place procedure.
I am very happy with the results and believe with more experience I might be able to dial it in a little better.
I really enjoyed this build and am contemplating starting a separate company to start building equipment. I have thought about making a 6” version and even making a third column but that is outside hobby size but could work out well for a craft distillery.
Here is a screenshot of the Anton Parr EZ Dens.
IMG_5218.png

Hi WC

I have a technical question.
Going back to your post of 09/28/22 and comparing it to this post above, is it possible you already reached maximum achievable results with your original column?
viewtopic.php?p=7725621#p7725621

[Windy City]

Hi WC

I have a technical question.
Going back to your post of 09/28/22 and comparing it to this post above, is it possible you already reached maximum achievable results with your original column?
viewtopic.php?p=7725621#p7725621

Hey bunny
I would disagree that the column was already producing at its maximum.
I was not able to get 95.6% ABV (azeo) let alone hold it easily through the majority of the run with the original setup like I am now.
Now I may not have needed more than a couple of extra feet, but there was really no point for me to not go from floor to ceiling on the second column.
I can say that I and many of my taste testers were able to tell the difference. I along with my testers thought that I had made a phenomenal neutral / vodka before, but this was actually better. I have always read that the rule of thumb for a reflux still to make azeo is 20 to 25 times the diameter for your height. I was short on that height before but my belief is that I came close to azeo due to the packing I am using. I also believe that anything over the minimum height to make azeo with whatever packing you are using will just help cleaning the product further. Let's face it, even at azeo 95.6% there is still 4.4% of something else. Why not try and clean that up as much as possible so hopefully that the remainder is just water. BTW I do not have facts to back up what is in the 4.4% without sending it to a lab. Maybe someone much smarter than me could come and hash it out.
Overall it was a fun build and I enjoyed doing it. For me and possibly others it fixes a problem with height restrictions of the distillery space.
I have built side columns before that all drained back via gravity and found it a huge pain in the ass to dial in let alone make azeo. I believe that the efficiency is much better because now the column behaves as one single taller column instead of the enriched reflux just returning to the boiler and having to come all the way around again This is a pic of one of my original attempts at side columns.

[still_stirrin]

… Let's face it, even at azeo 95.6% there is still 4.4% of something else… Maybe someone much smarter than me could come and hash it out…

It’s dihydrogen monoxide. It is what forms the azeotropic solution. Not dangerous, however.
ss

[Windy City]

… Let's face it, even at azeo 95.6% there is still 4.4% of something else… Maybe someone much smarter than me could come and hash it out…

It’s dihydrogen monoxide. It is what forms the azeotropic solution. Not dangerous, however.
ss

[bunny]

Hi WC

I have a technical question.
Going back to your post of 09/28/22 and comparing it to this post above, is it possible you already reached maximum achievable results with your original column?
viewtopic.php?p=7725621#p7725621

Hey bunny
I would disagree that the column was already producing at its maximum.
I was not able to get 95.6% ABV (azeo) let alone hold it easily through the majority of the run with the original setup like I am now.
Now I may not have needed more than a couple of extra feet, but there was really no point for me to not go from floor to ceiling on the second column.
I can say that I and many of my taste testers were able to tell the difference. I along with my testers thought that I had made a phenomenal neutral / vodka before, but this was actually better. I have always read that the rule of thumb for a reflux still to make azeo is 20 to 25 times the diameter for your height. I was short on that height before but my belief is that I came close to azeo due to the packing I am using. I also believe that anything over the minimum height to make azeo with whatever packing you are using will just help cleaning the product further. Let's face it, even at azeo 95.6% there is still 4.4% of something else. Why not try and clean that up as much as possible so hopefully that the remainder is just water. BTW I do not have facts to back up what is in the 4.4% without sending it to a lab. Maybe someone much smarter than me could come and hash it out.
Overall it was a fun build and I enjoyed doing it. For me and possibly others it fixes a problem with height restrictions of the distillery space.
I have built side columns before that all drained back via gravity and found it a huge pain in the ass to dial in let alone make azeo. I believe that the efficiency is much better because now the column behaves as one single taller column instead of the enriched reflux just returning to the boiler and having to come all the way around again This is a pic of one of my original attempts at side columns.IMG_5100.jpeg

Hi again WC
I've been trying to understand your process and have a lot more questions if you don't mind?

OK, I started with CM but after much work could not get it to be repeatable with my then sized (1") column. I then got pretty good with LM and micro needle valves. I'm now at my most repeatable with LM and selectable fix flow stainless steel orifices.

My questions:
1) Your collection rates are beyond my comprehension. Do you get better results (ABV wise) if you go slower? Like 1 gallon/hour instead of 2?
2) Do you have any records of slower take off rates for your original column?
3) I've been studying the aquarium products thread again and am not as confident as I once was about the efficiency of the Siporax and others.
Are you still enamored with the Siporax? Did you ever try scoria?
4) Staring at all your sight glasses, it appears packing is pooching out up against the glass. How much more packing does it take to fill these as compared to a straight 4" pipe? Could this be affecting the perceived pipe diameter? Might it respond more like 4.5"?
5) If it does, could you slide a long strip of 1/8"grid stainless screen inside the pipe to block the packing from going there?

Thanks for your time and patience
bunny

[Windy City]

Hi again WC
I've been trying to understand your process and have a lot more questions if you don't mind?

OK, I started with CM but after much work could not get it to be repeatable with my then sized (1") column. I then got pretty good with LM and micro needle valves. I'm now at my most repeatable with LM and selectable fix flow stainless steel orifices.

My questions:
1) Your collection rates are beyond my comprehension. Do you get better results (ABV wise) if you go slower? Like 1 gallon/hour instead of 2?
2) Do you have any records of slower take off rates for your original column?
3) I've been studying the aquarium products thread again and am not as confident as I once was about the efficiency of the Siporax and others.
Are you still enamored with the Siporax? Did you ever try scoria?
4) Staring at all your sight glasses, it appears packing is pooching out up against the glass. How much more packing does it take to fill these as compared to a straight 4" pipe? Could this be affecting the perceived pipe diameter? Might it respond more like 4.5"?
5) If it does, could you slide a long strip of 1/8"grid stainless screen inside the pipe to block the packing from going there?

Thanks for your time and patience
bunny

Hey Bunny
Sorry for the delay in responding but work has been busy

1) I ran the old still many many times but have only run this still three times. With that said I have run slower takeoff speeds on both without improving ABV.
When learning a new reflux still designed for azeo / neutral I will play with power and reflux rates until I can get the most stable and highest ABV. The take off rate is what it is.
2) I generally don't keep records of what is not working and normally just keep records of what did work well for me. I find that the CM stills I have all have a sweet spot where they want to run whether it be this pumped reflux still or my other still that I run 2 to 4 plates for aged spirits.
3) I really like the Siporax for a 4" column. Siporax is a through porous sintered glass compared to nonporous ceramic rings. The size of 15mm x 15mm is a good fit for a 4" column. It is also far more affordable than large format SPP but giving me what I believe the same performance from others I have talked to. Also I believe by being through porous it cleans up real nice with my clean in place. I have not tried scoria but many have and are happy with it.
4) The original still was all sight glass tees because I used what I had on my shelves. The new still has one sight glass at the bottom and one at the top of each column not including the drainage tee at the bottom of column 2. The packing does fill out the tee branch section but I don't believe this really changes anything due to the majority of the column being 4" pipe.
5) I don't think this is necessary.

[bunny]

Hi again WC

Thanks for your explanations.

A couple other things I still would like to know:

How much fores and heads did you remove from the 24g of 40% Shady's and at what rate and head temp?

On your 5' column you took off 8.75l/hr of 95.1 - 95.4, and so far now on your 11' column you are taking off 7l/hr of 95.6.

Since it appears you have more than doubled your theoretical plate count and with the results of your earlier 5' column I would have guessed you would have found it difficult to go below azeo.

Do you expect to go beyond the 8.75l/hr on the 11' column? That's 1.75l or 20% more /hr.

[Windy City]

Ok i have not updated this in awhile.
I have run this a bunch over the winter and am probably still learning.
I changed up the way I run it and slowed everything down as bunny suggested.
I increased the power and the flow to the RC's .
I am now producing 1.75 L every 20 to 22 minutes at 96.6% ABV.
I think if i wanted to increase take off at that ABV I would have to increase diameter.
I just so happen to have 20' of new 6" type L copper laying around
But I would not build it unless someone would want to purchase it.
All in all I am ecstatic how this worked out and am actually thinking about pumping my 4 plate side column.

[The Baker]

I am not sure I understand it, but gee it's pretty!

Geoff