The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

[Rumblepants]

Not Badmo, but old barrel wood is what I have been using and so far it is working well. I have used the heads from a 5 gal micro distillery barrel - once used for bourbon. And I used the staves from a home depot flower planter which was a who knows how old Jack Daniels barrel. Staves are a bit harder to work with as they are wide in the middle and narrower at the end. They also have the curve with them but with the use of beeswax between them they have sealed up.

Thanks for the input @subbrew. Have you got any pics?

[Badmotivator]

Hi Badmo,

I'm in Australia and looking to build a couple of barrels. I Have just got my hands on an ex Markers Mark 200L barrel. What do you think of cutting down barrel heads and using them on a bain marie?

I have found Winco bain marie inserts on Amazon that will ship to Australia.

Love to get your input on my plan.

Cheers

Hi! I think cutting barrel heads is an excellent idea. I did some barrels early on using ex-bourbon and ex-wine staves. They were a pain in the... do you say "arse" down under? I had to steam and flatten them, then take off a lot of the joint edges. Later on when someone first mentioned barrel heads I smacked my forehead. That's so much more sensible. Good luck! Let us know how you get on.

[Badmotivator]

how do you guys find the grade of stainless steel for these "barrels"? most of the bain marie ads do not list if it is 304 or 316 stainless. I would think you want the 316 for long term storage with minimal corrosion.

I'm pretty sure they all use 18/8 stainless. I have never seen even a hint of corrosion in barrels that I have used for years and then looked inside. Here's a little info on 18/8:

18-8 Grade Stainless Steel

This refers to the 300 series of stainless steel with a chromium and nickel content in percentages. That means that an 18-8 grade fastener has 18% chromium and 8% nickel content. 18-8 type stainless steel has better resistance to corrosion than the 400 series. It can be hardened only by cold working, and it isn’t magnetic.

Pros and Cons of 18-8 Grade Stainless Steel

As already mentioned, 18-8 grade stainless steel is celebrated for its superior corrosion resistance. However, it is known to show signs of corrosion when exposed to chlorides, such as salt. Therefore, it is not the ideal stainless steel to use for marine applications. On the up side, 18-8 grade stainless steel properties include the fact that it can be bent and molded without it having an effect on its overall strength and durability. This type of stainless steel is also not only extremely budget-friendly, but it also requires little to no maintenance. 18-8 stainless steel yield strength is also impressive.

[6 Row Joe]

They look like a good barrel and should age spirits nicely over the long haul. I wouldn't mind trying one but it seems you can't keep up with demand and after a half dozen failed attempts at release time, I am giving up. I don't like playing games to purchase products. Tonight's release lasted less than 4 min. I couldn't type fast enough to enter my information. Sorry, I'm out.

[Badmotivator]

I'm still waiting for my reamer to taper the bunghole.

Questions for Ben:

• To get around the low SA/V ratio (around 30 or so if you put 1.6 gal into it) I was thinking of adding 1 or 2 toasted/charred sticks (5/8 x 5/8 x 5) before inserting the head. 2 sticks would add about 25 sq in, and would make it around 45 sq in/gal (but would not increase the area of wood exposed to air). Then after a bourbon is done it should still work fine for a single malt. I figure if I want to use one for a single malt on its first use, I'll do a medium toast with a char level 1.
• My spigots measure 0.620" dia. I have a 5/8" forstner bit, and the spigot fits well, but goes in easily without needing force and it isn't as snug as you show in your video. I expect that tightening it with the nut on the back will be good enough until the wood swells to seal.
  
  What is your take on these?
  

Oh, you are really going to enjoy reaming your first bunghole. Sure, I ream 20 bungholes in a day now sometimes, but I still remember my first.

1. Sure, add wood if you like. But I have never wished I had more wood flavor if I gave the barrel a year or more to do its thing. It's easy to stick wood in, but's it's hard to pull wood out. Maybe defer that decision until a lot of good time has passed?
2. I would buy a drill bit sized a half a millimeter smaller than the fattest part of the spigot pipe. My spigots have a 16mm pipe and I use a 15.5mm drill bit. Also, remember that with a tight fit like that, screwing the spigot into the wood is a one-way trip. When the friction is very high, trying to unscrew the spigot results in the spigot body coming unscrewed instead of the whole assembly backing out.

Also,(and you may have already thought of this) I would recommend locating the bunghole lower on the face, such that after you ream it out, which widens the outer part of the hole, you still have an inch of wood up to the can's wall.

Your stuff looks good! Way to go!

[Badmotivator]

They look like a good barrel and should age spirits nicely over the long haul. I wouldn't mind trying one but it seems you can't keep up with demand and after a half dozen failed attempts at release time, I am giving up. I don't like playing games to purchase products. Tonight's release lasted less than 4 min. I couldn't type fast enough to enter my information. Sorry, I'm out.

I agree completely with everything you said. I'm sorry that things have gotten (temporarily) out of hand, and the experience is so frustrating for so many people.

I am laying the groundwork right now to begin hiring people to help me make more barrels. I never wanted to be an employer, but the reality is that too many people are having the same experience as you and that bums me out. I don't know if that makes a difference to you, but I'd like you to know that I'm not happy with it either, and I'm working to fix it. Ramping up will take time, but I'm eager to get it done.

Thanks for that input, too. I need to hear the bad stuff to get better. Cheers.

[Badmotivator]

Apologies if this has already been discussed. But would it be possible to use something like this

https://www.nisbets.com.au/bolero-stain ... 2EQAvD_BwE

The sides are straight and not tapered would that cause an issue with getting a tight seal on the head?

Cheers
Rumble

I just don't know. I like the slight taper on the Bain Marie inserts, but I think that pipes with no taper have been used successfully.

If you could make a precise circle that is just the right diameter and get it set into the can, it should swell enough in every direction to seal up. I don't see any theoretical problem with that. Practically it may create challenges that I don't know about though. Sorry I can't help more than that.

[The Baker]

I have found Winco bain marie inserts on Amazon that will ship to Australia.

Some also available at Amazon Australia.
You would have to compare prices and include shipping, if charged.

Geoff

Can you shoot me a link. I could only find the ones located in the US. They had free shipping though so thats somthing,

I just looked up winco bain Marie inserts Amazon Australia

Geoff

[higgins]

WARNING: Not all bain-maries are tapered the full length!! It turns out that the Winco 8.25 bain-maries that I received are virtually straight-sided for the first 4 inches or so.

I had sanded a 2° bevel on my heads, and by hand they only went in halfway. I charred them, installed the spigots, and inserted them. I used a piece of 3/16 plywood to gauge the amount to recess it, but when it was in and flush I pushed the bung in and the whole head pushed down 3-4 inches into the bain-marie. So I got them out, soaked them for a few minutes, then inserted again, keeping the recess to about 1/8". I am trying to get them to seal, but I'm not optimistic. I think that the bevel on the head is causing only the very outer edge to contact the wall.

Since I don't have a wood stretcher, I'm going to try to recover these heads. I'll saw a very thin strip of white oak long enough to wrap around the edge of the head, then bevel each end (in thickness) so that when it overlaps it maintains a consistent thickness. I'll sand the head to a square edge, wrap the head, and try inserting again.

So I think if I make more, I'll use straight sided heads with square edges, making sure they don't quite go in. Then I'll add a small bevel to the inner corner of the edge to help with insertion. Without a shop press I may rig up something using my apple press rather than hammering. It seems that it needs to be considerably tighter to 'stretch' the ss slightly to hold it in.

[subbrew]

l.

Since I don't have a wood stretcher, I'm going to try to recover these heads. I'll saw a very thin strip of white oak long enough to wrap around the edge of the head, then bevel each end (in thickness) so that when it overlaps it maintains a consistent thickness. I'll sand the head to a square edge, wrap the head, and try inserting again.

I use a good coat of bees wax around the edges to seal any imperfections in my roundness. I think a little wedge of bees wax to make up the 2 degree edge would do the job.

I also use my apple press to push in the head. Since the "head' of my press can wobble I put a smaller board that fits in the bain marie on and then a larger board that does not so as I push if one side goes in it only goes in the thickness of the smaller round before the larger round hits the edge and starts stops that edge from going in farther.

[6 Row Joe]

They look like a good barrel and should age spirits nicely over the long haul. I wouldn't mind trying one but it seems you can't keep up with demand and after a half dozen failed attempts at release time, I am giving up. I don't like playing games to purchase products. Tonight's release lasted less than 4 min. I couldn't type fast enough to enter my information. Sorry, I'm out.

I agree completely with everything you said. I'm sorry that things have gotten (temporarily) out of hand, and the experience is so frustrating for so many people.

I am laying the groundwork right now to begin hiring people to help me make more barrels. I never wanted to be an employer, but the reality is that too many people are having the same experience as you and that bums me out. I don't know if that makes a difference to you, but I'd like you to know that I'm not happy with it either, and I'm working to fix it. Ramping up will take time, but I'm eager to get it done.

Thanks for that input, too. I need to hear the bad stuff to get better. Cheers.

Thanks for your response. I was in business for over 30 years and I have been down the "can't fill the demand" road. It sounds like you are on the right track with ramping up production. Who knew demand would skyrocket the way it has. I wish you the best of luck.

[dovregubben]

Since I don't have a wood stretcher, I'm going to try to recover these heads. I'll saw a very thin strip of white oak long enough to wrap around the edge of the head, then bevel each end (in thickness) so that when it overlaps it maintains a consistent thickness. I'll sand the head to a square edge, wrap the head, and try inserting again.

Do you think you could pull the staves apart? If so, you could install shims between them. That should increase the size of the head by a tiny amount. It will technically be an ellipse at that point, but I feel as though the can should flex enough to accommodate the modified geometry. It might be easier than the solution you proposed.

I'm not sure why, but the shim of choice for whiskey barrels is cattail reeds. Perhaps someone here can shed some light on what makes them the preferred shim material. Here's a picture of some guys shimming up a bourbon barrel.

[dovregubben]

how do you guys find the grade of stainless steel for these "barrels"? most of the bain marie ads do not list if it is 304 or 316 stainless. I would think you want the 316 for long term storage with minimal corrosion.

I think the reason a lot of (but by no means all) food service equipment is 316 rather than 304 is so it can tolerate being wiped down with chlorine bleach several times a day. Bleach will definitely corrode 304. I kicked bleach to the curb very early in my home brewing adventures. I've used both iodophor and acid based sanitizers since then. Of the two, I recommend iodophor. I have pieces of 304 equipment which have been sanitized with iodophor or acids hundreds of times over the past 20 years without a trace of corrosion. A barrel for aging spirits isn't going to see anywhere near that degree of chemical exposure. All it's going to have in it are ethanol and water, two of the most chemically inert substances in your home.

[Rumblepants]

Hi! I think cutting barrel heads is an excellent idea. I did some barrels early on using ex-bourbon and ex-wine staves. They were a pain in the... do you say "arse" down under? I had to steam and flatten them, then take off a lot of the joint edges. Later on when someone first mentioned barrel heads I smacked my forehead. That's so much more sensible. Good luck! Let us know how you get on.

Thanks so much for the advice. Love the podcast with Jesse Still it.

Is there a need to toast the cut down barrel heads. I have a tentative plan to sand back and rechar the barrel insides but am unsure whether I should be toasting the wood as well.

I'm keeping an eye on your site to pick up a couple of your barrels when I can. Be great to see the workmanship first hand.

@The Baker (Geoff) I think the ones listed in Australia were the US based inserts. I ended up getting free shipping so pulled the trigger on two of them.

Cheers guys
Rumble

[bcook608]

Apologies if this has already been discussed. But would it be possible to use something like this

https://www.nisbets.com.au/bolero-stain ... 2EQAvD_BwE

The sides are straight and not tapered would that cause an issue with getting a tight seal on the head?

Cheers
Rumble

I'd be more worried about the seams not being water tight. But if you buy one and water test it and it holds, I imagine it'll be ok so long as you cut a shallow angle on the head so it tightens as you set it. I'd talk to Badmo and see what his difference is for his diameters to ensure a snug fit. Keep in mind that it will tighten more as the head swells after hydration.

[squigglefunk]

I'm pretty sure they all use 18/8 stainless.

i know a lot of food service stuff is 201 stainless, especially when they don't tell you what it is. Hence why I asked, I have a few pieces made of 201 and they do work fine, but they will def rust/corrode. Heck so will 304 aka 18/8... I am having flashbacks of "stainless steel" flasks ruining good whiskey. Vanilla notes with a hint of chromium... yuck... I do use stainless to store high proof booze for a couple days at a time and dont have that issue but when I think of years in a wet environment it seems the best grade you can get might be worth it. Has anyone has verified the composition of a particular brand of bain marie? I am asking around and so far have gotten no response from some of the bigger manufacturers.

[NormandieStill]

i know a lot of food service stuff is 201 stainless, especially when they don't tell you what it is. Hence why I asked, I have a few pieces made of 201 and they do work fine, but they will def rust/corrode. Heck so will 304 aka 18/8... I am having flashbacks of "stainless steel" flasks ruining good whiskey. Vanilla notes with a hint of chromium... yuck... I do use stainless to store high proof booze for a couple days at a time and dont have that issue but when I think of years in a wet environment it seems the best grade you can get might be worth it. Has anyone has verified the composition of a particular brand of bain marie? I am asking around and so far have gotten no response from some of the bigger manufacturers.

I bought an element for the still that would allow me to run small batches and didn't notice that it was made of 201. Damn thing rusted in no time at all. Pitted to hell. I'm waiting on the (304) replacement now.

[The Baker]

Does anyone know what grade of stainless corny kegs are made of?

Thanks,

Geoff

[bcook608]

Looks to be 304

[The Baker]

Looks to be 304

Thanks. I have a couple to use as 'barrels'.
For temporary storage.

Geoff

[squigglefunk]

well so far the only one I have heard back from is Winco and theirs are 204 stainless

[dovregubben]

I am having flashbacks of "stainless steel" flasks ruining good whiskey. Vanilla notes with a hint of chromium... yuck...

Metals do not have have flavor or odor. When things smell or taste "metallic," it's actually decomposing organic compounds. The decomposition is often catalyzed by the presence of metals, which is why we make that association, but the metals themselves are not affected by it. If you detected something "metallic" in your whiskey, there was a contaminant present other than metal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oct-1-en-3-one

well so far the only one I have heard back from is Winco and theirs are 204 stainless

According to the internet, the primary difference between 204 and 304 is the nickel content, but they have similar chromium content. Chromium is the element mostly responsible for stainless steel's corrosion resistance. As such:

"In environments that contain less corrosive media, grade 204 is stainless steel that delivers a performance similar to that of grade 304."

As long as it's not in a marine environment or being regularly cleaned with bleach, 204 and 304 should both be fine. Whiskey is primarily water and ethanol, two of the most chemically inert substances in your home.

"Under typical atmospheric or water based conditions, grade 204 will not rust."

https://www.oshwin.com/blog/difference- ... steel.html

[squigglefunk]

cool thanks for the info, I do not have experience with the 204 stainless, like I said, I have some 201 stainless 5 gallon pots that I use for collection purposes but I don't leave the booze in them for long and no metallic tastes. I did have some small corrosion issues with them but diligent use of Barkeepers Friend seems to help.

as to the metal flasks I have had issues with, I can't say for sure what the metallic taste was coming from but never had that issue with a glass flask. plus they don't set off metal detectors

[higgins]

Much to my surprise, all 3 of my BadMo clones sealed up. However, I can still push the head in when inserting the bung, so I'll be remaking them. If I can get the joints separated I might do as dovregubben suggested and add shims in the joints.

[dovregubben]

I just found a web site with 8 qt Thunder Group bain maries for $12. I'm going to order a few. I'll report the wall thickness after they arrive.

Thunder Group and Choice and Winco (I think) all have a wall thickness of 0.6mm, which has an empirical failure rate of about 1.5%.

My Thunder Group bain maries arrived about a week ago, and I finally just got around to measuring the wall thickness with a micrometer and gauge pin. They're actually significantly thicker than 0.6mm. I measured 0.031" (0.79mm). Of course, that is the thickness just below the rim, where it's likely distorted by the manufacturing process. The bottom might be 0.6mm, but my micrometer won't reach that far. The rim is the part we're interested in anyway.

It has occurred to me that drawing stainless steel probably creates stress regions parallel to the direction it is drawn. I wonder if there's a heat treating process which could minimize them?

I got a few corny kegs too, and everything I need to build a chopping jig to cut them down. I just need to clean the garage now... It might be a while....

[CoogeeBoy]

Looks to be 304

Thanks. I have a couple to use as 'barrels'.
For temporary storage.

Geoff

Geoff, where do you source your oak from please?

[hawkwing]

Has anyone tried seasoning previously kiln dried wood and what was the result?

[hawkwing]

I’m also curious how long you are aging. Does it need to be longer than a full size barrel? Just wondering because the surface area to volume ratio is less.

[CoogeeBoy]

needless to say, you need some pretty substantial equipment to put these babies together.

[The Baker]

Looks to be 304

Thanks. I have a couple to use as 'barrels'.
For temporary storage.

Geoff

Geoff, where do you source your oak from please?

(The 'couple to use as barrels' were stainless coonie barrels).


Well, actually...
I asked at the local winery.
And the owner said, 'Oh. You are looking for old barrel staves.
Hmm. Not much around.
Oh, there is this very big barrel that has been sitting in pieces in the weather in the yard.'
So we looked at it. He didn't say how long it had been there but fifty years would not surprise me.
So I took a heap home. Don't know how good it will be, may not be good at all.
But the price was good! (Free). And the staves were very wide so I could get a badmo top without joining pieces.

I expect I will shave some of the really weathered outside (inside?) off it...
Being extra thick the inside (the middle of the wood) seems fairly good.

Geoff