keg to electric kettle conversion

[Mr Shine]

I'm sure this has been said elsewhere... but I guess I'm not smart enough to find it with multiple searches: what you doing to clean the pot after the fitting is soldered in?

TIA and sorry if it's been covered before.

[humbledore]

one possible problem is that the keg surface is rounded and the fitting is flat. I saw this when I soldered a locknut. On the "gap" sides I could not get a bead. On the top and bottom where it was more flush, I had a bead. I think Jimbo said he flattened an area on his keg in his electric build thread. I did not see belly do that or mention that however.

[BIGBIRD123]

Seeing that you say you are a Safety Man, then we expect you to give us a demonstration that "Proves" or
"Disproves" your claim. I just did mine and watched as the solder was "sucked" into the joint. If this was such a bad idea, then they would have come loose when I torqued my element and ball valve down. It should in your case just twisted them out but it didn't. So I am satisfied, as I too was a Safety Man for Brick Masons with an Impeccable Safety Rating of only 3 loss time accidents in 30yrs.

BB

[BIGBIRD123]

one possible problem is that the keg surface is rounded and the fitting is flat. I saw this when I soldered a locknut. On the "gap" sides I could not get a bead. On the top and bottom where it was more flush, I had a bead. I think Jimbo said he flattened an area on his keg in his electric build thread. I did not see belly do that or mention that however.

BB made a hole to where he could insert the nipple into the wall of the keg thus eliminating the problems with the flat nipple and the arc of the keg. It worked supremely well for me and doing it this way made for a STRONGER alignment. I am very satisfied with how well this worked.

BB

[BIGBIRD123]

I think everyone on here is mature enough to decide if their joint is solid. I too think they are mature enough to make the decision to do it this way or have it tig welded, or glue it on with rubber cement if they so desire.
I highly doubt they plan on getting their handiwork inspected.
I'm a pretty smart cookie, smart enough to ensure the joint was solid before applying power to the element. I am also smart enough to properly ground the element to the keg and the panel.

Mr BB, this was a super way to do this. I had this done in far less time than it took to look up someone to weld it for me and I now have enough money left from not having to pay the welder to take my wife out this Friday for a very nice dinner for her B'day...you rock bro...

BB

[bellybuster]

If I had my time back I would have usedthose spuds, they're just sexy

[bellybuster]

Just for interest, I did mine in Feb , 10 months ago, hasn't failed nor does it show signs of ever failing. I'd be the first one on here showing pics if it did

[corene1]

If I had my time back I would have usedthose spuds, they're just sexy

I was just reading this thread and I was also reading Jimbos thread. I was thinking if someone wanted more contact area for the solder why couldn't you make the hole in the keg slightly undersized and then use something that was solid and tapered and use it to tap a flare in the keg. there would be much more contact area for the solder to bond to, it would actually make a fillet. Just a thought.

[BIGBIRD123]

If I had my time back I would have usedthose spuds, they're just sexy

I was just reading this thread and I was also reading Jimbos thread. I was thinking if someone wanted more contact area for the solder why couldn't you make the hole in the keg slightly undersized and then use something that was solid and tapered and use it to tap a flare in the keg. there would be much more contact area for the solder to bond to, it would actually make a fillet. Just a thought.

That's actually not a bad idea. You could flare it to the inside and that way there would be an indention to pool the solder. The biggest thing you need to do is to grind the surfaces to show new clean metal, especially the nipple because of the finish is not conducive to making a bond. I found out the hard way. Without a clean surface on the nipple it will actually repel the solder.

BB

[humbledore]

These are the welding spuds I think belly is referring to, they have a collar for greater surface contact.


http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 3#p7131423

[NineInchNails]

I agree with the guy that would prefer to see a 'torture test' of a soldered joint before trusting/relying one. Even the. I would still prefer a piper weld.

I VERY MUCH prefer a welded joint in this location than ANY soldered joint. I'm not saying that a soldered joint is extremely weak, but I bet it's nowhere near as strong as a proper weld. Just saying.

[corene1]

I have done some tests with different types of joints . I attached a copper cap to a piece of 18 gauge stainless sheet. I used Stay silv 45% silver braze and standard leadfree plumbers solder. I didn't have any of the 5%or 8% silver bearing solder to try. The joint with basic solder was quite strong but it did separate. it took a prying twisting motion to get it to fail, a straight pull wouldn't separate the joint, the solder pulled away from the stainless. The silver solder on the other hand held tight and the copper material tore before the joint failed. I will try another tomorrow with Stainless to stainless and see what happens . I will take pictures.

[bellybuster]

http://youtu.be/OpMFQFi6Hh4

This would be the best method but hard to do with the thickness of a keg

[corene1]

OK , here is the little test I did on soldered connections. Pretty basic actually but here goes. All I have is stay silv 45% silver solder and paste , and regular old H Depot lead free plumbers solder. I took a couple of scrap pieces of 16 gauge stainless steel and silver soldered a copper cap to it and a stainless tube to it on one side. On the other I did the same thing with plumbers solder. I then did a stainless to stainless connection as describe before by drilling a hole and putting a taper on the hole. I used 1 inch tubing to match a collar. then silver soldered one and regular solder on the other one Then went to the press and tore them apart. I wrote the poundage that they broke at on the plate. the only one that didn't break was the silver soldered copper to stainlees connection . The 3/8 shaft I was pushing with poked a hole through it before it pulled apart

. Although it is not scientific it shows me that even regular plumbers solder will hold stainless pretty well. I would guess that a higher quality silver bearing solder , maybe a 5% or 8% would hold even better.
I guess I should mention that the poundage was applied very gradually. there was no impact involved.

[humbledore]

Thanks for doing this. How was the force applied, like a lever pressing down on the fittings? I can't think of the right term, not torsion, shear, or tension but sideways force on the ends of the soldered piece?

[corene1]

Thanks for doing this. How was the force applied, like a lever pressing down on the fittings? I can't think of the right term, not torsion, shear, or tension but sideways force on the ends of the soldered piece?

Hydraulic press with a load cell. I drilled holes in the back of the small plate and pushed each connection with a 3/8 inch shaft . On the 1 inch collars I pressed directly on the collar. Just watched the dial and when I heard the POP! I wrote down the pressure.

[humbledore]

So the force on the rod is from behind the plate pushing the fitting away from the plate?

[corene1]

So the force on the rod is from behind the plate pushing the fitting away from the plate?

Yes. The regular solder is pretty strong but the silver is substantially stronger. Got a definite POP when it let loose.

[S-Cackalacky]

So the force on the rod is from behind the plate pushing the fitting away from the plate?

Yes. The regular solder is pretty strong but the silver is substantially stronger. Got a definite POP when it let loose.

Corene, is the 45% silver solder you used in the form of a brazing rod and what did you use to apply it - oxy/acetylene, or some other? Could you explain the process for a novice?

Thanks,
S-C

[corene1]

So the force on the rod is from behind the plate pushing the fitting away from the plate?

Yes. The regular solder is pretty strong but the silver is substantially stronger. Got a definite POP when it let loose.

Corene, is the 45% silver solder you used in the form of a brazing rod and what did you use to apply it - oxy/acetylene, or some other? Could you explain the process for a novice?

Thanks,
S-C

We get our silver solder from the welding supply here. It is Harris brand safety silv 45 and use Harris safety silv flux paste. It comes in a 3 ounce roll of 1/16th inch wire and cost about $30 dollars an ounce pretty expensive stuff but it is very strong I used less than 1 1/2 inch of 1/16 wire to do all the connections in the pictures, but a nice tight fit is required. I used Oxy-Acetylene torch as the melting point is 1125 degrees. Both surfaces must be very clean, I use emery cloth to clean with. I flux well and apply the heat slowly and gently moving constantly to avoid getting a hot spot and burning the flux or overheating the stainless , either of these won't let the solder wick into the joint properly. Don't directly heat the solder, keep it in contact with the base metal and let the heat from the base metal melt it. You will know when it is close as the flux turns from a thick paste to almost a clear watery texture. I have seen others talk about a silver bearing solder also , It does not have near as much silver , I think I remember 3% and 5% I am betting it would be a better choice economically and hold just as well. I will look for some here locally and give it a try. In truth I am not that experienced in solder, I do it maybe once or twice a week so this is good practice for me too. Most of our stainless is done by heli- arc or mig wire.

[humbledore]

Bellybuster (and others on other forums) have suggested Harris StayBrite 8 solder and Harris Stay Clean flux. The solder is 8% silver, melts between 430-530F This wide melting point allows it to fill better (they say on the data sheet). I used Oatley Silver Solder on a locknut I soldered on an old beater keg. It is some smaller percentage silver, like 2%? And I used some generic flux for stainless, and MAPP gas. It was a pain to get on there, and ugly looking, but I took a hammer to it and beat the crap out of it and it would not come off. I was thinking to get a 1" pipe (it's a 1" locknut) to put in there and try to wrench it off somehow. I posted that on a thread and I had the usual haters saying it was a bad job, would pop off with a screwdriver, don't trust it, etc. But for me, I am satisfied.

[corene1]

Bellybuster (and others on other forums) have suggested Harris StayBrite 8 solder and Harris Stay Clean flux. The solder is 8% silver, melts between 430-530F This wide melting point allows it to fill better (they say on the data sheet). I used Oatley Silver Solder on a locknut I soldered on an old beater keg. It is some smaller percentage silver, like 2%? And I used some generic flux for stainless, and MAPP gas. It was a pain to get on there, and ugly looking, but I took a hammer to it and beat the crap out of it and it would not come off. I was thinking to get a 1" pipe (it's a 1" locknut) to put in there and try to wrench it off somehow. I posted that on a thread and I had the usual haters saying it was a bad job, would pop off with a screwdriver, don't trust it, etc. But for me, I am satisfied.

Might just have gotten too much solder on it, the 8% harris sounds good to me. Screw the pipe nipple in and tap on it see what happens.

[bellybuster]

just a little curious, what kind of forces are you folks expecting to be put on a soldered fitting? If it can withstand the torque of the element being put in and the heat of a dozen or more runs, id say she's good.
Call me crazy

[S-Cackalacky]

just a little curious, what kind of forces are you folks expecting to be put on a soldered fitting? If it can withstand the torque of the element being put in and the heat of a dozen or more runs, id say she's good.
Call me crazy

Good point. I think the thread took this turn when someone anal about the method raised the issue. I believe the method you put forth here and in your video is sound and has been successfully used by many of the forum's members. I think the Harris 8% silver solder and stay clean flux seem to be the optimum choices for cost effectiveness and that's what I'll be using. However, I think we DO owe Corene a debt of gratitude for laying the issue to rest.

Great thread Bellybuster and thanks Corene!

S-C

[corene1]

just a little curious, what kind of forces are you folks expecting to be put on a soldered fitting? If it can withstand the torque of the element being put in and the heat of a dozen or more runs, id say she's good.
Call me crazy

Good point. I think the thread took this turn when someone anal about the method raised the issue. I believe the method you put forth here and in your video is sound and has been successfully used by many of the forum's members. I think the Harris 8% silver solder and stay clean flux seem to be the optimum choices for cost effectiveness and that's what I'll be using. However, I think we DO owe Corene a debt of gratitude for laying the issue to rest.

Great thread Bellybuster and thanks Corene!

S-C

You got it, It's not like these connections are under a great load. I am guessing the most stress they will ever have is if we taste test too much, fall over and drop it. Just thought I would make a point on how strong a soldered joint actually is. Our Oxygen 6 pack manifolds are silver brazed and they operate at 2500 psi. and are tested to double that . I think it will hold the pressure of a pot still. It was fun to do though. I am definitely going to get some of the Harris stay brite 8 to play with.

[humbledore]

Good point. I think the thread took this turn when someone anal about the method raised the issue. I believe the method you put forth here and in your video is sound and has been successfully used by many of the forum's members. I think the Harris 8% silver solder and stay clean flux seem to be the optimum choices for cost effectiveness and that's what I'll be using. However, I think we DO owe Corene a debt of gratitude for laying the issue to rest.

Great thread Bellybuster and thanks Corene!

S-C

Agreed.

[bellybuster]

didn't mean to take away from your testing Corene, fantastic job really. Going the extra distance.

[S-Cackalacky]

just a little curious, what kind of forces are you folks expecting to be put on a soldered fitting? If it can withstand the torque of the element being put in and the heat of a dozen or more runs, id say she's good.
Call me crazy

Good point. I think the thread took this turn when someone anal about the method raised the issue. I believe the method you put forth here and in your video is sound and has been successfully used by many of the forum's members. I think the Harris 8% silver solder and stay clean flux seem to be the optimum choices for cost effectiveness and that's what I'll be using. However, I think we DO owe Corene a debt of gratitude for laying the issue to rest.

Great thread Bellybuster and thanks Corene!

S-C

You got it, It's not like these connections are under a great load. I am guessing the most stress they will ever have is if we taste test too much, fall over and drop it. Just thought I would make a point on how strong a soldered joint actually is. Our Oxygen 6 pack manifolds are silver brazed and they operate at 2500 psi. and are tested to double that . I think it will hold the pressure of a pot still. It was fun to do though. I am definitely going to get some of the Harris stay brite 8 to play with.

Most importantly, your testing is something we can point to when folks question the effectiveness of the method. Also, Bellybuster's thread, along with Humbledore's and Jimbo's (and probably others) show that ss can be effectively soldered. This is extremely important for novices like myself who don't have the skills or facilities to weld.

Just sayin',
S-C

[corene1]

didn't mean to take away from your testing Corene, fantastic job really. Going the extra distance.

You absolutely did not take anything away. I just wanted to show others that soldered connections on stainless work very well, sometimes people just need numbers. I have watch your video and learned from it. I see things that come into the shop all the time that are stainless and soldered. I am going to get some of that 8% solder and play with it also. Much cheaper than the stuff I have at work.

[spreadpanicwide]

great thread guys. might have saved me from making some very big mistakes. i was planning on just welding the coupling with s.s. wire using a gassless mig welder. we call it a buzzbox (Lincoln Electric Handy Mig™ Portable Welder — MIG and Flux-Cored, Model# K2185-1) . would this work? i have a 15.5 gallon keg and am about to attach a s.s. coupling to receive a hot water tank heating element. ive also read where using a step drill bit to bore the hole. im wondering is it possible to use the bit to bore a hole just right enough to thread the heating element directly to the keg and eliminating the coupling? ...or should i just follow BB's youtube video on soldering? i have a little welding experience and very little soldering experience.

BB extra thanks to you for taking the time to give such detailed instruction.