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Yummyrum wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2024 11:20 pm I’m excited for you SMF
I went to set up my 4” VM today and I couldn’t fit it inside my new shed LOL . You’ve inspired me to rebuild my dodgy head into a more dedicated design like yours .Thanks for the build topic . Love it .

That sounds interesting. I hope you post some pics. Quality parts have never been more plentiful and the prices are surprisingly low depending on where you buy them from.

I didn't want to mix keg modifications with this column build so I'll just leave a link showing the modifications I made to the kegs that I intend to elevate above the boiler, use to collect low wines during the stripping runs then use the bottom drains to dump the low wines back into the boiler for a spirit run.

Keg Modification NO WELDING - Bottom Drain and Swiveling Casters

I'm bored waiting for the sugar wash to ferment (for the cleaning run) so I got to thinking. I control every part of my still from standing on the ground other than the Gate Valve. That got me thinking, 'why not rotate the Gate Valve upside down and create a 4' extension rod for the knob'? This may not be a novel idea so I started considering the draw-backs. People may claim that the Gate Valve will pool and cause smearing during the spirit run. When the Gate Valve is upside down, approx half way open, there is a hollow portion of the body that holds approx 60ml of water when I measure it. I thought I'd test whether this 'pooling' is a wives tale or not by removing the Gate Valve midway through the cleaning run and see if anything pours out. Well I'm too bored and too fidgety to wait to test this. I'm running to the store, gonna pick up some threaded rod, a Coupling Nut and two Jam Nuts. This shouldn't cost much so the investment is low.

Here's the plan. This would put the handle at a convenient height just under 6'

I have a bag of these things lying around, but I don't know what they're called.
EDIT: I Googled it and it's called a Furniture Flange Coupling M8x1.25


I ground the threaded stem square.

This will allow me to adapt threaded rod to the Gate Valve's knob.

I was hoping to be able to pick up a 4' length of threaded rod, but all they had was 3' and 6'. I was too cheap to shell out for the 6' rod and cut 2' off. It all came together perfectly It's a lot more rigid and tighter than I assumed it would be. I though it might feel more sloppy, flimsy and fragile, but that is NOT the case at all. This 3' extension now puts the knob at a convenient height of 6' 9" from the ground. Hopefully no more up and down the ladder to adjust the knob.

That is clever AF

With the way gate valves work, won't that orientation create a lot of pooling/smearing?

tjsc5f wrote: ↑Fri Sep 20, 2024 5:17 pm With the way gate valves work, won't that orientation create a lot of pooling/smearing?

Yup, that's why I said:

This may not be a novel idea so I started considering the draw-backs. People may claim that the Gate Valve will pool and cause smearing during the spirit run. When the Gate Valve is upside down, approx half way open, there is a hollow portion of the body that holds approx 60ml of water when I measure it. I thought I'd test whether this 'pooling' is a wives tale or not by removing the Gate Valve midway through the cleaning run and see if anything pours out. Well I'm too bored and too fidgety to wait to test this. I'm running to the store, gonna pick up some threaded rod, a Coupling Nut and two Jam Nuts. This shouldn't cost much so the investment is low.

Guess you could drill a hole in the valve and add a drain back to the column iff’n you are worried about it .

Yummyrum wrote: ↑Fri Sep 20, 2024 5:52 pm Guess you could drill a hole in the valve and add a drain back to the column iff’n you are worried about it .

I'm curious to see if any pooling does occur. We all know that when you fire up a VM, the gate valve is closed. While the gate valve is closed, nothing can pool. While stabilizing the column the gate valve remains closed. The valve heats up while the column stabilizes. When you want to begin taking off foreshots, you crack the valve open a small amount. Would this immediately cause pooling? While removing heads? While removing hearts? Or will the hot valve and hot vapor not allow pooling to occur? That is what I intend to find out.

If there is some pooling, I will see if insulating the gate valve makes any difference.

If you find it does pool more than you like, and insulation doesn't improve it enough, maybe turning it 90°, mounting a sprocket where the handle goes and running a loop of chain down to the desired height would work.

tjsc5f wrote: ↑Fri Sep 20, 2024 6:15 pm If you find it does pool more than you like, and insulation doesn't improve it enough, maybe turning it 90°, mounting a sprocket where the handle goes and running a loop of chain down to the desired height would work.

Well if it does pool, I'll probably submit to going back up and down the ladder It's really not that big of a chore. I only have to crack the valve open once for taking off foreshots, again to take off heads a little faster and again for taking off hearts. Once tails hits I shut down. Maybe I'm just getting old, but to me, the Gate Valve extension seems like worth a shot. It only cost me $2.58 for the two Coupling Nuts and $3.48 for the threaded rod.

I downloaded this .stl file on Thingiverse for a 2" pipe clamp. I stretched it to fit 4" pipe using TinkerCad and set the height to 3/4". After 3D printing it with PETG filament, I tossed it into a pot of very hot water to soften it up a bit. I then snapped it over my 4" pipe. Heating it up relaxes the plastic, forms it exactly to the shape and fit you want. I cooled it with cold water. I screw this clamp to a wood truss in my garage and I snap my 4" reflux condenser into the clamp. I use the clamp to secure the top of the reflux condenser to ensure that the tall column cannot fall over if someone trips on a hose or something like that. I feel a LOT better knowing the column is secured.

3" clamp vs 4" clamp:

I finished insulating the column the other day. The insulation was a little loose after splitting it so I had to trim a little bit to make a snug fit. The Velcro strap I bought turned out to be very high quality unlike the Harbor Freight Velcro strap I previously bought years ago. The strap deteriorated and separated in two layers.

I should be able to do my sacrificial alcohol run tomorrow and see if that inverted gate valve pools at all. If it does, I think I'll make some Proto-Putty and completely coat the valve. Proto-Putty is similar to play dough, though it solidifies. It's made of 100% silicone caulk, food coloring and some Corn Starch. Silicone is a very good thermal insulator so it should work well. As a matter of fact, I may cover the valve with Proto-Putty even if it doesn't pool. It would help allow me to disassemble and handle that part even while it's hot.

That is one HELL of a column!

What's your total height From the floor including boiler?
Wish that my garage was pitch roofed... :-(

MooseMan wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2024 10:08 pm That is one HELL of a column!

What's your total height From the floor including boiler?
Wish that my garage was pitch roofed... :-(

Approx 11' from the floor to the very top of the reflux condenser. It could be lower if I used a smaller boiler for spirit runs. At the moment I'm using my largest boiler for stripping as well as spirit runs. Maybe one day I'll get a smaller boiler for spirit runs and that should shorten the overall height.

My garage does have a pitched roof. That's why I have enough height for a tall column on my largest boiler.

If your gate valve pool in the upside down position a slight rise in your take-off before the valve may help. Not sure if is possible but with your fabricating skills you could pull it off.

Edit.change rise to angle.

Doing the sacrificial alcohol run now. I stabilized the column for 30 min. Cracked the gate valve open 3 turns. After running for about 30-40 minutes I turned the power off, unscrewed the gate valve assembly and found that 14ml has pooled within the gate valve body.



I just wrapped the gate valve with a towel to test if insulating it reduces or eliminates this pooling. I'll remove it after 30-40 min and see what happens.


On a side note, I tried using my 1/4" OD water lines with well water pressure to run the 4" reflux condenser. It over-cools running (120F) wide open (no valves), but under-cools running through a needle valve wide open. So for this run I'm forced to run the 1/4" lines wide open (no valve), but will switch to my 3/8" OD water lines for future runs.

I just unscrewed the gate valve assembly and found the exact same amount of pooling. I don't know if it's reflux splashing/trickling into the valve body or if vapor is condensating within within it. Either way the result is the same. Early on I considered placing the centering plate at the top of the Tee to discourage reflux from potentially finding its way into the gate valve, but I don't know if that would make a difference or not. I may test that another day.

I don't know if 14ml is worth being concerned about or not considering my spirit runs will be around 30 gallons.

I believe Yummy mentioned modifying the valve so that it's 'self draining' back to the column. I really don't want to think about doing that. I may just eliminate the Gate Valve Extension and submit to using the ladder.

Overall the new column appears to be working great. Even the exiting % ABV was outstanding from a 10% ABV sugar wash. I don't think I can determine if my current packing is suitable until I've done an actual spirit run with low wines.

I just soldered one of these packing retainers to the base of each 4" Tri-Clamp spool. I realized I need to be able to separate each spool individually without the packing spilling out. Handling 6' of 4" pipe filled with packing is just silly. I'll use at least two rolls of copper mesh at the base of the lowest spool, top it up with packing, one roll of copper mesh at the base of the 2nd spool and top it off with packing.

The above packing retainer will replace these retainers I installed previously using Plate Gaskets:

Hey SMF, I had a thought.

I know that 14mm is not really an amount to be bothered about considering the volume throughput on a 4" column, but I can tell it's bothering you.

So, I looked back through the thread and found this pic of your extension.
How about, if you rotate the elbow 90° in orientation on the still so there's no down facing depression for liquid to pool.
Then by adding a 90° joint to the extension you've made, you can still avoid the ladder.

Several ways to do that, you could even use a mechanical "Knuckle" or a 90° drill head attachment of you don't fancy making something from scratch?

Go on, with your skills I reckon you'll have something knocked up in no time!

Nice test .
Interesting the wrapped valve made no difference .
You have to wonder if 14mls matters .it’s less than the collection area of most slant plate bokas and way less than a parrot .

It would be interesting to see if that pool basically stays there for the whole run or whether it overflows and runs down the takeoff 90°.
I’m thinking if there was a weir on the 90° just before it goes downhill , surely it would stop the liquid and it would instead run back towards the column .

I also think that having a pool of liquid isn’t really going to do much as it’s vapour that is essentially going through the valve .

MooseMan wrote: ↑Tue Sep 24, 2024 10:06 pm Hey SMF, I had a thought.

I know that 14mm is not really an amount to be bothered about considering the volume throughput on a 4" column, but I can tell it's bothering you.

So, I looked back through the thread and found this pic of your extension.

Gate Valve Extension 09.jpg

How about, if you rotate the elbow 90° in orientation on the still so there's no down facing depression for liquid to pool.
Then by adding a 90° joint to the extension you've made, you can still avoid the ladder.

Several ways to do that, you could even use a mechanical "Knuckle" or a 90° drill head attachment of you don't fancy making something from scratch?

Go on, with your skills I reckon you'll have something knocked up in no time!

I get what you're saying and it may be solved another day, but I'm used to climbing up the ladder to turn the valve just a few times during a spirit run. It's that that big of a deal in the long run, but you're right it did bother me a bit. I thought I had a simple plan, but it just didn't work out.

Yummyrum wrote: ↑Tue Sep 24, 2024 10:13 pm Nice test .
Interesting the wrapped valve made no difference .
You have to wonder if 14mls matters .it’s less than the collection area of most slant plate bokas and way less than a parrot .

It would be interesting to see if that pool basically stays there for the whole run or whether it overflows and runs down the takeoff 90°.
I’m thinking if there was a weir on the 90° just before it goes downhill , surely it would stop the liquid and it would instead run back towards the column .

I also think that having a pool of liquid isn’t really going to do much as it’s vapour that is essentially going through the valve .

Yeah I don't totally understand what is happening exactly. This was just a sacrificial alcohol cleaning run so I may do more tests in the future. I'll be starting some sugar washes this week. I'll strip them, finally doing a proper spirit run and see if it makes any difference. I admit, it would be really cool to invert the gate valve, but the ladder really isn't that big of a deal.

If rotating the valve to a horizontal stem position reduces the pooling volume then a chain operator might be possible.

I've installed chain operators on valves with a horizontal stem that are difficult to reach.

Top notch job mate, nice and tidy and thought out.

I started a sugar wash today and will start another one tomorrow. In approx a week I will strip both and do a spirit run with the new setup. I look forward to taking many notes. If anyone has any ideas, I don't mind conducting tests and reporting back.

SMF,

You know I will be looking forward to all your run data. Especially the dimroth reflux condenser cooling water flow rate and cw inlet and outlet temperatures for the spirit runs. Also, what power levels you run with your PC in the strip runs. Thanks.

haggy

I also tried inverting my valve. It collected about an ounce of reflux, no doubt it was smearing the clean hearts.

haggy wrote: ↑Sat Sep 28, 2024 5:26 am SMF,

You know I will be looking forward to all your run data. Especially the dimroth reflux condenser cooling water flow rate and cw inlet and outlet temperatures for the spirit runs. Also, what power levels you run with your PC in the strip runs. Thanks.

haggy

I will definitely take all of those notes and any others you think relevant. If you think of any more, feel free to shoot me a PM.