FLUTE TALK

[olddog]

should the "void" be in the lower part,, or in the upper part

I have always put the void at the bottom, I read somewhere that the plates at the top of the column will enhance the flavor profile.



OD

[Mr.Spooky]

thanks for the responce OD!
do you think that this "void" would be a waste of copper,, or benificial????
thanks
spooky

[Mr.Spooky]

this is about what it would end up looking like.. i plan on using the top 6 " for a deflag.

[RayDean]

I cut off 6" and am using it as the "shell" of my drop-in dephleg. All i have to do is cut a slice out of the side, squeeze it with pipe clamps and braze the seam so that it will slide inside the column.

[Mr.Spooky]

P3081346.jpg

got any plans set in stone Austin?
spooky

[olddog]

[quote="RayDean"]
I cut off 6" and am using it as the "shell" of my drop-in dephleg. All i have to do is cut a slice out of the side, squeeze it with pipe clamps and braze the seam so that it will slide inside the column.[/quote
Are you doing this Stumpy style with the feed and return tubes going through a top plate.


OD]

[RayDean]

You got it OD! Feed, return, and 2" vapor line coming off a 4" triclamp cap. Pictures soon I hope...

[Austin Nichols]

P3081346.jpg

got any plans set in stone Austin?
spooky

Sort of,

both condensers are shotgun, it's a 3" column with 4x 2" sight glasses, I havnt decided on perf or bubble cap plates for it yet and it will have a 2" easy flange to fit a keg.

Cheers.

[Rum Bum]

After a full week of reading each and every post in this thread it seems like my knowledge has expanded double-fold. I have learned a lot about each of your unique projects, with every build something useful comes out of it. And not just lightning. You guys are the make-up of a wonderful and friendly community. You show a lot of respect to each other and I’d like to join this group of bright-minded artists and craftsmen.

I truly think that the wise words on this forum are at this very moment revolutionizing the distilling world. Like most things, they start at the hobby level, and their practices will soon be brought into the business of distilling. Any young entrepreneur, like myself, has just been given a plethora of knowledge that most books fail to achieve. I am honored to hear the composer,olddog, orchestrate his copper-winds, it has been an absolute pleasure… stimulating all my senses from my eyes to my intuition, telling me to start learning my sharps and flats.

AN, I’m really diggin’ those big bronze eyes. They’re gonna look tubular on the 3 incher!

Thanks KS for posting those video’s online! I read some of you couldn’t see them and that’s because you need to have a YouTube account to unblock them. It's really simple to sign up and it's worth the time! The video's aren't open to the public, only people with the link can view them. I'd love to see more video's man, I really enjoy watching them bubble and hiss!

And KS, just a suggestion, or maybe a beg, but I'd love to see an instructional/tips video on how to properly weld a plate to the inside of a column! If you have some time to make one that would be great! There might be some more visual learners wondering how it's professionally done besides me! I've read how to do it and understand it but a video would only help! It would be a real treat!

If your not up for it KS, I'd be grateful if anyone would put one up, I just know you have a video camera and have one of the more gifted soldering hands.

RB

[Mr.Spooky]

Rum Bum , its always good to hear when someone has endoured (sp) all of the pages of FLUTE TALK... you have made it through more than most are willing to venture. along the way ,of the sea of vast pages,, there is alot to be gained,,, and as you said yourself
"I truly think that the wise words on this forum are at this very moment revolutionizing the distilling world. Like most things, they start at the hobby level, and their practices will soon be brought into the business of distilling. Any young entrepreneur, like myself, has just been given a plethora of knowledge that most books fail to achieve."
the rest is up to you. take this knowlage as you will, then give back... well be looking forward to your finds.
and yes,,, iv been sippin
spooky

[olddog]

A year ago, the Flute design was nothing more than an idea in my head. I was looking for something that would be able to be built by the home distiller, and could be used with a keg for a boiler, and could be built with the tools that most home stillbuilders posses. After looking at many commercial designs, I decided that the principles could be scaled down for our use as home distillers, so from there the Flute was born. Some doubted the design, other ridiculed it, but guys like Kentucky Shiner and Spooky were the first to try one for themselves, and confirmed that the Flute design works. From there we have seen Kentucky Shiner develop a business building Flutes and dozens of members take up the design, even some of the original doubters have come round to accept it, others still remain sceptical, but the success cannot be denied. I am proud to be able to say that this was a design that originated here at Home Distiller.


OD

[Erichimedes]

Hello!
You've all been such a great inspiration and source of info for me, from building my first still to all the great recipes. I lurk more that post, but I want to thank everyone for sharing all they've learned with us newbies. I agree with Rum bum, all the knowledge gained and shared here is more important to the advancement of craft distilling than any book, class, or even experience at a commercial distillery.

Anyway I'm about to put a flute together, and I have a couple questions. I'm sure if I read enough of this thread, they'd be answered, but between work/school/apprenticeship I've only got one afternoon off per week. I hope you'll be patient with me, I already understand quite a bit, but there are some finer points I'd like to ask about.

I never planned on building a flute, but I was recently given about 5ft of 3" stainless brewery pipe. We just started doing stainless at school(technical college, welding) and the opportunity to build one relatively cheaply is just too good to pass up. Here's the plan:
-3 x 24" column
-3 x 6" shotgun dephleg
-Column, dephleg and pipe to product condenser will all be held together with 3" tri-clamp fittings.
-Chamber above dephleg to hold copper packing (for the sulphites).
-2 x 12" shotgun product condenser
-5 perforated copper plates
-1.5 inch tri-clamp ferrule sight glasses. Thought this was an original idea, but just discovered that it's been done!
-100% TIG welded (well, maybe some solder in there somewhere...)

My questions to flute builders are these:
1. Is the distance between plates super important? I was planning on 3.5 inches between each one, but have seen it said that 4 inches is the minimum. Any particular reason for that?
2. How high did your down-comers stick above the plate that they're draining? i.e. how deep are the pools on each plate?
3. How high above each plate did you make the hole for the sight glasses?
4. When running your flute, how important are the sight glasses to the operation? Once you know that the plates are filled, do you check on each plate for specific things throughout the run? It would be a lot easier(and a LOT less purdy) to just leave them out...
5. I was planning on having the plates cut by someone with a plasma table. Have you guys had luck just cutting and then grinding them?

Thanks guys! I'm open to any and all suggestions on overall design as well.

[LWTCS]

1. Likely an optimal distance.. But some times ceiling heights or other obsticles can foil best laid plans. Am I a slacker now?
2. Again,,,,,,3/8s,,,,1/2s,,,,,,21/64s,,,,,,,,,tomatoe,,,,,toh-mah-toe. Difficult to measure performance. Now am I a slacker?
3. As long as you can see the plate and liquid should be good.
4.The sight glass is a great visual tool. Can run by head temps and alcohmeter only.
5.Very good idea,,,,get em dead on and you'll have a quality fit.

[Prairiepiss]

this is good dialect,,,, maby the rest of the conversation should be carried over to "Flute Talk"
spooky

I think your right Mr Spooky.
This conversation about drain holes in plate drain J traps started over in Condensificators Bublifier thread. I didn't want to hijack his thread any more so I will try to bring it over here. This was the conversation so far. I would like to hear others opinions on it.

...drilling one or two 1/16" holes into the bottom of the j-trap would be a benefit because it would allow proper drainage once the vapour flow ceases but would most likely hold liquid in the j-trap as long as there is a vapour pressure just as a normal perforated plate will.

It doesn't quite work that way with a j-trap. For that concept to work, you'd have to plug the bottom end of the J. Let's say you drilled those two holes. There's equal pressure on the end of the J and on the drain holes; they would just drain out. A perforated plate holds liquid because of the difference in pressure between the top of the plate and the bottom of the plate. A J-trap holds liquid because it's shaped like a cup. You can't really mix those two concepts(at least not in this way).

Not to shoot anyone down, I just wanted to point that out before any holes got drilled!

I would disagree with you in this situation. You are talking about a normal J trap as it is intended to be used in a normal application. Where you do not have two aposing forces. In this situation you have fluid draining from the plate above so you have flow. And you have vapor pressure coming up from the boiler. If the holes in the plate above can hold fluid during a run. So will a hole in the bottom of a J trap. You have to consider the J trap in operation. And when its shut off yes it will drain. That's the purpose of putting it there. So the fluid will drain back to the boiler. For easy cleanup.

It's really not easy to prove it one way or the other on an internet forum For pressure to be able to hold liquid in the j-trap, it would have to be pushing up on those holes. For it to push on the holes, there has to be less pressure on one side of the holes(the inside of the j-trap) than on the other side(the inside of the pressurized chamber). With the end of the j-trap open, both sides of the holes are at the same pressure, giving no holding power. If you close it, however, the pressure then wants to go in those small holes because it's the path OUT! The initial liquid to come down into the trap would just drain out.

I suppose this is sort of a dumb argument. Sorry, I just wanted to explain myself better.

Is it dumb? You got me thinking. But I am thinking the opposite of you. Now I am wondering if the drain hole wouldn't bubble like the holes in the plate. And its real easy to prove. As soon as someone who has J traps and sightglasses drills a hole for a drain. Then it can be seen whether it holds or drains during a run.

Sorry Condensificator for the hijacking.

Please tell me I haven't ruined anyone's still by my suggestion! Erichemedes, you have me reconsidering the ease of my idea, but I am not convinced it isn't managable. I understand your point, but I am grappling with your argument because the net force from the downward pressure of the liquid build-up and the upward force from the vapour pressure is not obvious to me. I am thinking at this point that there would not need to be very much vapour pressure if the j-trap only had a short pipe leading up; that is, only long enough to remove a direct vapour path and that is not long at all. All the same, thanks for speaking up because I was starting to feel way to cocky . Perhaps what you have brought to everyone's attention is an obstacle to be overcome, or perhaps it is a reason to abandon the idea entirely. I am in no position to say yet . . .

When I want to drain my J traps, I turn them upside down. Tiny holes and vapor pressure calculations be damned!

When I want to drain my J traps, I turn them upside down. Tiny holes and vapor pressure calculations be damned!

Keep It Stupid Simple!

[Prairiepiss]

Have you seen some of these Flutes? Just turning them upside down could be a chore in it shelf. It would be nice to be able to just shut down let it drain a little while it cools off. Then open the drain on the boiler and maybe run a little water down the column to flush it. Fill the boiler with the next charge and go. From what I have seen you could possibly get 3 runs of 3 different washes in one long day. If you didn't have to break it down between every run.

By the way my boiler will have a 4" for the column a 2" for a fill and a 3/4" for a drain. Just for the above situation. Man I need to take this stuff in and weld it up.

[olddog]

Here is my latest build for forum member Petrovski, it's a 5 plate configuration with sight glasses on the upper 3 plates.

Just gotto cut some windows and seals now and she's done



OD

[Austin Nichols]

OD,

It looks good I spose, but why go with such a large product condenser?

I dont see the need to go so big on the product condenser when something half that size will work fine.

Also: I built my first with the sight glasses on the 1st, 3rd n 5th plate, why go for the top 3 plates with windows?

Cheers

[olddog]

but why go with such a large product condenser?

Cos that's the size needed to get a 3 metre coil of 3/8" tubing.

I built my first with the sight glasses on the 1st, 3rd n 5th plate, why go for the top 3 plates with windows?

Why not. At the top of the column with the temperature maintained at 78 degrees you are observing the alcohol distilling on the top plate. the lower plates closer to the boiler run at a hotter temperature which show the portion of wash distillation at a higher temperature, eg water. Why would you want to observe the wash which mainly consist of water distilling


OD

[Kentucky shinner]

here is a new twist.. you guys may have seen this but I had not.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1rq1oqkPcs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
KS..
I found this pretty interesting

[Samohon]

That animation KS is whats been running through my head... Thanks man...

[prdbrissy]

Did another cleaning run this morning after reducing the holes size in the plates form 2.5 mm to 1.3mm.
I think they are now too small as I now get vapor coming up the j traps.
I am going to open the holes up to 1.6mm and modify the j traps and try again.

I have a question
Does every body get condensation on the inside of the sight glasses to the point you can't see inside?
Is there something I can do to stop this?

Regards

[olddog]

I have a questionDoes every body get condensation on the inside of the sight glasses to the point you can't see inside?Is there something I can do to stop this?

You can get this with a cleaning run, but it does not happen when you are distilling alcohol.
Once you get liquid bubbling on the plates they will fill the J type downcomers, and once there is liquid in the bottom of the J no vapor will be able to rise through it.



OD

[kenfyoozed]

Mine starts with condensation, But like OD says it goes away once the plates have alcohol on them. But i notice it again when i get close to tails and the plates start to turn off.

[prdbrissy]

thanks for the input yesterday OD
I have opened the holes to 1.6mm and modified the j traps
I now have a result I am happy with.
As soon as I had a good bubbling plate the sight glass cleared.

The liquid that came out the product end was clear but the vinegar water mix left in the boiler had a blue tinge what does this mean? In this normal for a cleaning run?

Hopefully a sugar wash goes in tomorrow.



regards

[Kentucky shinner]

Yes that is normal. It is the stuff the vinegar has cleaned out. It will turn blueish green pretty fast. When you run a wash through all of this should be gone.
KS

[masterKenobi]

Can the Flute Builders start a thread on making cuts with a flute.
Thanks for all the great reading

[olddog]

Making cuts is a practice which applies to all distillation, not just specific to one type of still.


OD

[prdbrissy]

Hi Guy's

I did my 1st acohol run this morning. It is the final cleaning run. Here is the low down.



20 lt wash at 5%abv made up of old wines and spirits watered down to cover the elements
tested the was supply
filled the boiler and tuned on the power
set water flow to 1lt/min I new this would reflux everything
when the column got to temp I

set water flow to 800ml/min to raise dephlegmater exit water temp to 62degC and let the column settle down under full reflux
water 800 - vapor temp at top of boiler 92degC - vapor temp at top of column 78.2degC - Dephlegmater exit water temp 62degC - distilate flow rate 0ml/min - Distilate 0%abv not enough to check

set water flow to Dephlegmater at 700ml/min
water 700 - vapor temp at top of boiler 92degC - vapor temp at top of column 78.2degC - Dephlegmater exit water temp 65degC - distilate flow rate 2ml/min - Distilate 0%abv not enough to check


set water flow to Dephlegmater at 600ml/min
water 600 - vapor temp at top of boiler 92degC - vapor temp at top of column 80degC - Dephlegmater exit water temp 76degC - distilate flow rate 4ml/min - Distilate 90%abv

set water flow to Dephlegmater at 550ml/min
water 550 - vapor temp at top of boiler 92degC - vapor temp at top of column 80degC - Dephlegmater exit water temp 77.8degC - distilate flow rate 12ml/min - Distilate 90%abv

set water flow to Dephlegmater at 500ml/min
water 500 - vapor temp at top of boiler 93degC - vapor temp at top of column 80degC - Dephlegmater exit water temp 80degC - distilate flow rate 24ml/min - Distilate 90%abv

set water flow to Dephlegmater at 450ml/min
water 450 - vapor temp at top of boiler 93degC - vapor temp at top of column 80.5degC - Dephlegmater exit water temp 80.5degC - distilate flow rate 32ml/min - Distilate 90%abv

set water flow to Dephlegmater at 400ml/min
water 400 - vapor temp at top of boiler 94degC - vapor temp at top of column 81degC - Dephlegmater exit water temp 81degC - distilate flow rate 48ml/min - Distilate 89%abv

set water flow to Dephlegmater back to 600ml/min
water 600 - vapor temp at top of boiler 95degC - vapor temp at top of column 80.5degC - Dephlegmater exit water temp 78degC - distilate flow rate 4ml/min - Distilate 90%abv

set water flow to Dephlegmater back to 0ml/min pot still
water 0 - vapor temp at top of boiler rising to 100degC - vapor temp at top of column rising to 100degC - Dephlegmater exit water temp rising to 100degC - distilate flow rate rising to 100ml/min - Distilate 90%abv down to 30%abv

in total I got 100ml to start then 1000ml at 90%abv anf 500ml at 70%abv

this is a lot of info I am sorry. But I hope these numbers mean something to you all and helps you in some way.
To me it means I have a still over which I have good control.
I am rapped to hit 90%abv from a 5%abv wash with just 2 plates. It can only get better with more plates.
this weeked I will do it all again with my sugar wash.
then its back to building to finish her off.

I think I need more holes in the plates. the dropper is only 12mm high but the plate is supporting 30mm of solid liquid and there is vapor comming though the j trap.
OD how many holes do you have in your plates? Thanks





regards

[olddog]

Excellently documented test run, good results too congratulations, your up and running.




OOD

[blanikdog]

Making cuts is a practice which applies to all distillation, not just specific to one type of still.OD

Thanks OD. I had typed that reply but thought, hmmmmmmmmmmm, while I don't think there's a difference. maybe I'm mistaken. I chose the safe course and decided against thinking to myself, "OD willl take care of this" and you did.