arc welding

KatoFong · Post by **KatoFong** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 2:26 pm

Does anyone know if arc welding is safe in still construction? I'd think the sheet metal is so thin that an arc welder would punch holes in it, but of greater concern is the filler metal many arc welders use. Does anyone know if that's safe for stills?

Uncle Remus · Post by **Uncle Remus** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 3:29 pm

I don't think so. I've never heard of copper being welded with arc. It's possible to arc weld heavier stainless with stainless rod, but these days stainless is mostly welded with TIG.

knuklehead · Post by **knuklehead** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 3:32 pm

"Arc welding is a very broad term. MIG, TIG, Carbon arc etc. are all forms of "Arc welding" but I assume you are talking about stick welding. You can by stainless steel electrodes for a stick welder but you are right about burning holes. Thinnest rods I have seen are 3/32 which is still to much for thin metal. It can be done but you would have to be welding something thicker to the thin metal, you would just have to concentrate the heat more on the thicker piece and quickly dip into the lighter piece as you move along.

TRANSPLANTED HILLBILLY · Thu Jan 19, 2006 3:38 pm

KF, if your filler metal is compatable with your parent metal that would not be the problem. Your problem would be insuring that "ALL" of the flux had been cleaned off, grinding,sanding, polishing,etc.. Ther is some nasty stuff in welding rod flux I'm sure.
Yes, welding thin material with an arc welder can be tedious work, but can be done, get 1/16" dia. rod or smaller and turn her down. I prefer DC to AC current delivery.
I assume you know how to weld already. If not patience and practice will benefit you greatly.

decoy · Post by **decoy** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 5:05 pm

I would sugest, unless you want to learn how to weld and for some reson buyexpensive gear or filler rods for a once of use to got to:

For Stainless work:
- sheetmetal shop that works with stainless
- Catering equipment
- Shopfitters
- refrigeration

Copper work:
- Plumber gasfiter
- Refrigeration workshop
- Airconditioning Workshop
- Local Mechanics workshop

If you ask the guy in the workshop nicely, avoid going to the front office.
offer cash, Carton of beer eaven offer some final product in return for there services, be nice and polite tell them you dont need a recipt or invoice and you will supply the materials and they may eaven do it for free.

You will get a pro job maybe eaven some extras and you will get a chance to watch them how they do it and learn somthing then you may choose to invest in equipment and do it your self next time..

dont be scared to do some door knocking.

cheers

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 5:29 pm

I am part owner and operator of a HVAC company with a fully equipped onsite fabrication facility that works with copper, brass, stainless, aluminum as well as galvanized sheet metal. I have many customers try to pull this on me all the time. Sneaking in the backdoor, avoiding the front desk and trying to get something done for nothing or a reduced cost with not taxes. If I found any of my fabricators using my expensive equipment to do such things this would be ground for immediate dismissal as stated in our employee handbook. Sorry Decoy but this kind of advise frustrates me as a business owner. I try my best not to screw over my staff and hope they would give me the same respect, and they do.
I agree, take it to a shop and have it professionally done but go through the right channels. It's not there business what you are doing, there only concern is to provide you with the service you require.

knuklehead · Post by **knuklehead** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 5:30 pm

Got logged out, that was me

TRANSPLANTED HILLBILLY · Thu Jan 19, 2006 8:35 pm

Remus,you are quite correct. I have seen people attempt to Arc/Stick weld copper. Much to the amusement of friends, mind you these guys couldn't weld to start with and I wasn't one of them. Certanium used to have an aluminum rod and maybe still does. Absolute field job use only in my opinion.

But it can be done with a little skill and practice. I agree if he doesn't have the skill or equipment, take it to a shop. But he asked if was safe.

Can I get an Amen for Brother Knucklehead. As the son of a machine shop owner I can first hand agree with him. Not only does this practice demean and down grade the Integrity of the business, its a real pain in the ass to deal with for the man at the back door, as I have been more times than I care to count, that you have just put on the spot, to tell you he can't do it. He don't want you to think he's an asshole, unless he is proud of it.

KatoFong · Post by **KatoFong** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 8:51 pm

Thanks for the advice, everyone.

My thought, since I don't know how to weld, and don't want to/have the money to spend to go out and buy expensive welding equipment, is that I'll get someone to do it for me. I work in theatre, which means I have a few possible sources for professional welders who would be willing and able to do this kind of work for me in exchange for barter. Which is more or less how a lot of business is done in the theatre world. Favor for favor.

Mostly, I just wanted to find out what my options are for this job, so that when I talk to whoever it is who does the weld, I can have an intelligent conversation and know what I'm talking about..

level Joe · Post by **level Joe** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:18 pm

knuklehead did you ever use any of the equipment on your still.

decoy · Post by **decoy** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:50 pm

no Disrispect Knucklehead.. it wasent intended as a rip the company of thing...

I have access to lathes and mills etc but not much in sheet metal gear.

I aproached a forman at a sheet metal workshop and asked if they could roll me a 50cm diam tube and the forman was happy to do it.

it would take him 10 or 15 min of his time early in the morning, as he was not useing any company consumables or materials he did not have to sell or invoic me anything, and i offerd to pay the guys give him a carton of beer for it.

he eaven said if it involved using any of the company materials he would have to put it through the office..

most places are happy to do it if thay see that it is a home project and not a profit making venture..

some places will say yes others will tell you to piss off etc.. depends on the work place..

tell me if a home hobyist came in and asked you if you could help him by welding somthing up that you would puthim through the wringwer by invoicing his ass off.

knuklehead · Post by **knuklehead** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 10:21 pm

level Joe wrote:knuklehead did you ever use any of the equipment on your still.

Yup I do use the equipment on my still. My boiler is double walled with 1" insulation between the walls. The whole thing is TIG welded and fabricated of grade 304 stainless. The inner liner is 0.05 thickness and the outer shell is really just to protect the insulation. There's pictures of it in "off topic" I just finished another project, a 50 liter mash pot with a false bottom also fabricated of 304 0.05 stainless steel. Here's a pic

Decoy, I realize you meant no disrespect but that topic really touches a nerve with me, as well as other people who have been in the situation. I think Transplanted Hillbilly knows exactly what I mean. Now to answer your question about the hobbyist coming in. If a friend of mine where to ask me a favor I would do it without thinking about it, no charge. Now a days I spend most of my days sitting behind a desk instead of behind the machinery so I enjoy going in in the evenings and building stuff, for myself and for other people as favors or gifts. If a "hobbyist" that I don't know comes in and wants something done, damn straight I am going to invoice him. Businesses are there to make money, if you do stuff for free you won't be around long. I also get told a lot "I don't need an invoice" because they don't want to pay the taxes. I can't do that, if they want to screw the government out of there tax that is there own business so leave me out of it. If I did do it and the shit hits the fan, guess who they'll be looking at, I can tell you it won't be Joe blow it'll be me. Don't get me wrong. If one of my regular customers comes in and wants a personal favor, roll a piece of metal or what ever I will do it in a second at now charge because they are already a loyal customer to me. It's the bastards that sneak in the back door, wander through a shop there not even supposed to be in and find the closest fabricator and ask him to do stuff for them that piss me off. This fellow that you dealt with, rolled a piece of metal for you. He said he wasn't using any material so he wasn't going to invoice you. Well how about if every single person brings there own material and he rolls it all for nothing. That roller will pay for it self in no time flat won't it. My point is that equipment is expensive, I bought a piece of equipment a few years back that cost more then my first house and it only does one job. Something has to pay for that and freebies to nobodies isn't going to do it. Sorry about this long lecture guys

Post by **golden pond** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 4:43 am

I'm with the Knuck also and own a machine shop myself, with Argon going at $70.00+ a bottle and some special welding rods going for $40.00+ a lb. and thats not including time taken away from a money making job you stop working on. I can't afford to give my services away to every Tom, Dick and Harry thats comes through my door. Yes a regular customer of mine needs something done, thats done for free because he brings me his work, adds extra money to some jobs I do and will supply me with things from his place of work at no charge. I have a $20.00 min. charge and if it takes me 2-3 min. to tack weld a part, its $20.00 and I take it.

KatoFong · Post by **KatoFong** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 5:44 am

I couldn't agree more with what you guys are saying. It's one thing to ask a friend or someone you do regular business with for a favor, but walking into a place where you don't know anybody and asking the workers to do something for you that's against company policy is rude for one, potentially dangerous for another.

So yeah. If I end up having to go to a professional shop where I don't know anyone, I'll expect to pay.

Knucklehead, I do wonder whether you're right about what I'm doing with it not being their business. If I walk into a metal shop with a few irregularly shaped pieces of metal and copper tubing and ask them to torch weld them together with silver, surely that'll raise a few eyebrows. If they ask, should I just say "I'm building a still." Wouldn't that put them in a tricky legal situation with liability?

KatoFong · Post by **KatoFong** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 10:34 am

Amen, HMC.

I used to work in a glass shop. We weren't even fabricating our own glass, these were premade pieces by glassblowers that we had bought and were reselling retail. And people would still try to haggle with us. Often from across the store, too, which really drove the owner nuts. His standard response for one of those was "Would you try to haggle with someone at Macy's? Then why would you think it's appropriate behavior anywhere else?"

Bottom line: people are cheap and have no appreciation whatsoever anymore of the work of real artisans.

knuklehead · Post by **knuklehead** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 10:44 am

KatoFong wrote:
Knucklehead, I do wonder whether you're right about what I'm doing with it not being their business. If I walk into a metal shop with a few irregularly shaped pieces of metal and copper tubing and ask them to torch weld them together with silver, surely that'll raise a few eyebrows. If they ask, should I just say "I'm building a still." Wouldn't that put them in a tricky legal situation with liability?

Katofong, that is a good point but you don't have to worry to much about that. If you went into an electronics shop and gave them plans for a bomb, well then they may be concerned. I know what you are saying and I do also deal with this a lot. A customer will walk in and give me his drawings. Tell me it is a gas tank for a vehicle he is rebuilding and asks if we can make it for him. I say "sure we can build you a water tank". If he agrees to let me build him a water tank then all is well. On the invoice is clearly stated "Water tank" for liability reasons and every one is happy. If someone walked into my shop and straight up said, "can you build me a still" I would just say "sure we can build you a water purifier". I want there business so I am not going to chase them away unless they ask something completely ridiculous. I do usually ask what the parts or parts are for but just so I can offer advise. Lots of times customers will say "I would rather not say". Sometime we do prototype work because they are working on an invention and want to keep everything a secret which is totally fine with me. I had a contact of mine at a local hardware store tell me once that kids would come in to the plumbing department and start asking for specific ABS fittings and parts. They wouldn't say what they wanted with the parts, "it's just a project". He always got a good laugh at toying with them cause he knew damn well they where building a bong. Just remember that they do want your business and if they ask what you are doing it is because they want to offer advise. If they ask, just tell them you are doing some experimenting. If you feel more comfortable about it then don't bring all the parts at once. Get a few parts done, take them home and a few days later go again but I am sure they could care less what you are doing.

Post by **golden pond** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 11:40 am

Well I guess I have to tell one now. I've been in my own business now for 11 years and have had only two pissed off customers, they were walk ins off the street. One had two broken bolts in a carburetor, I put it on a milling machine, touched both with a left hand drill bit and both just spun out. He ask how much, I say I have a $20.00 min. and I do have 3 signs at the door to that effect. He says thats way too much, I said well that mill cost me about 10k and left hand drill bits cost about 4 times more than a right hand one and I could have broke mine getting your bolts out. He snorted and blowed but did pay. The other had a heavy cast iron part broke, I did quote him a price and would call him if it was more because of the cost of the rods I would be using and he left the part. I vee'd it out the next morning and started welding it back together and got to running thin on my qoute, I liked about $20.00 in welding rods of getting it built back up flush ( these rods are $46.60 a lb.) So I called the guy and his son answers, I ask to speak to his dad, he said he could handle his dad's business so I tell him the deal. He goes in to cussing me for qouting a price and then asking for more to finish it right, he tells me to just leave it like it is and he'll come get it and take it somewhere else to get it finished. I get off the phone and get the feeling hes not going to want to even pay the price I quoted because its not finished. So I just throwed it in a saw and sawed it into where I had welded it, carried the two pieces to front door and throwed them in the floor. He walks in about 30 min. later and sees the two parts. I walk to the front and he says to me, you wasted your welding rods, I says yep but you're back where you started at. Them's the only two problems I've had in 11 years

possum · Post by **possum** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 11:50 am

And the moral of the story...in the key of A...

...one thing I've learned along the way,is proclaimed in the Biker's Creed,

Just gimme some Gas,Grass,or Ass baby, cause nobody rides for free.

P.S. I'm a freelance tutor.

level Joe · Post by **level Joe** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 1:50 pm

Well...
knuklehead, I owe you an apology.
My post was a bit of a setup. I was waiting for you to say "Yes, I'll do what I want, screw what the employees think I'll fire em if they don't like it". Then I was going to flame your ass. I took your frustration as something else when you mentioned your fabricators. So here it is...

Sorry for that.

You sound like a good man to work for (helping friends and all that).
We have a saying at work;
When you think you’re (the boss) too good to clean the toilet, that’s when the place turns to shit.
level Joe

Post by **Tater** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 2:19 pm

Ive been self employed repairman last 16 years .Best part of being selfemployed is getting to choose who Ill work for.

knuklehead · Post by **knuklehead** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 4:25 pm

level Joe wrote:Well...
knuklehead, I owe you an apology.
My post was a bit of a setup. I was waiting for you to say "Yes, I'll do what I want, screw what the employees think I'll fire em if they don't like it". Then I was going to flame your ass. I took your frustration as something else when you mentioned your fabricators. So here it is...

Sorry for that.

You sound like a good man to work for (helping friends and all that).
We have a saying at work;
When you think you’re (the boss) too good to clean the toilet, that’s when the place turns to shit.
level Joe

Didn't realize I was being set up but I am glad I passed your test. Don't worry about it level joe, no harm done.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:17 pm

Lucky for me, I have friends who run one of the machine shops at the site I work at... I'm an electrician, but also quite the jack of all trades, so they let me use the machines on break and after work to fabricate small stuff, and teach me things I don't know when I need to know them. They're good guys.

It's a small shop, but it's more than enough for me. All I could ask for is a TIG...

KatoFong · Post by **KatoFong** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 11:28 am

Met with a couple of guys today on the southside. Really great guys and, true to what Knucklehead said, didn't flinch at all when I told them I was making a still. They even got really into it and found several pieces of good quality stainless that would have made a great head for my still. Sadly, the price they quoted me wasn't something I can afford. So, back to looking and using my cheap little still until I have a couple of hundred dollars to spare or until I find a welder who can do it for less.

Post by **Uncle Jesse** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 12:54 pm

you can do it, but the only safe way is to TIG weld with argon being supplied to the back side of the weld at the same time to avoid contamination of the weld.

aside from this, any kind of welding on copper will take some practice due to it's low melting point.

Rocky_Creek · Post by **Rocky_Creek** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 2:42 pm

A friend of mine does my tig welding. He is a super expert, even so joining copper and stainless even though it can be done is not his best work.

Thu Feb 02, 2006 3:51 pm

kids would come in to the plumbing department and start asking for specific ABS fittings and parts

It's funny you mentioned that, Knucklehead. My son and I build potato guns out of pvc. We were having touble finding a specific part to make a connection for a metered propane injection system on one of our cannons. I asked the guy working at Home Depot if he could help me find a way to get the two pieces connected. He insisted to know what it was for even after I tried to dodge the question a few times. I told him exactly what it was, and he said "I won't help you blow your sons hands off" and walked away and started helping someone else. I didn't even get a chance to tell him that everything we have made is perfectly safe and legal. I would be hesetant to mention anything to anyone about something that isn't legal.

knuklehead · Post by **knuklehead** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 3:55 pm

Rocky_Creek wrote:A friend of mine does my tig welding. He is a super expert, even so joining copper and stainless even though it can be done is not his best work.

It is not at all easy to do but it is very easy to make a mess of the whole project. Copper requires huge amounts of heat to tig weld and stainless requires very little so it's all together a crazy game. If your copper parts are thinner then the stainless parts you can do a pretty decent job. If the copper parts are thicker then the stainless parts it is very, very hard to do. If it must be done then very careful joint conciderations must be made before you start.

agl · Post by **agl** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 2:57 am

I have made a few stills and I have had several instances where I had to TIG weld the copper pipe to stainless fittings. I had best luck with dc - polarity and argon gas. Unless your stainless part is very thick you should also flood the back of the weld with argon. The reason that copper requires more heat to weld is it's high thermal conductivity- the melting point is actually not that high. (same reason aluminum is trickier to weld than steel). The really hard part is the discrepancy between the thermal conductivity of the stainless and copper. I find that the best way to level the field is to hold an arc for 10 seconds or more with only just enough current to create a small puddle on the copper. This will heat up the whole copper part so that with further welding closer to the same amount of heat will be required to penetrate both materials. (preheating the copper with a torch would probably work too).

Another tip, I used stripped electrical wire to get copper filler rod, since the copper has a lower melting point, it is the better filler rod for the job. It alloys neatly with the stainless, and you won't be as likely to blow holes in your copper parts when using it.

Post by **golden pond** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 4:52 am

Like AGL I've always used stripped electrical wire for my filler rod using a TIG torch welding both copper to copper and copper to stainless, no problem

Home Distiller

arc welding

arc welding

welding copper

Tig welding copper and stainless