Something to think about?

[Grayson_Stewart]

Brought over from the old forum

rob_t
(stranger)
02/07/04 04:06 PM

Something to think about?

I've been distilling now for a few years, and when I started, I read as much as I could (as you do) to find about the pitfalls and dangers. You accept wisdom when it's received, and for a long time I didn't question anything I'd read that sounded even vaguely sensible. But... there was always something rattling its cage at the back of my head (I have to tell you that I had a fairly scientific education, but it was a long, long time ago). The rattle suddenly became very loud recently, and led me to ask a degree level chemist the following question... "Can ethanol decompose into methanol?". The answer... "Not unless you're dealing with VERY high temperatures and/or pressures" - meaning way above what we in the normal world might achieve in our stills.
Where is this going? The implication is (to me, anyway) that any methanol found in a distillate HAS TO HAVE BEEN present in the original wash! If this is the case, then it's no more dangerous drinking poorly distilled liquor than drinking the original brew undistilled (on the assumption that you fall over and stop drinking after a certain volume of ethanol has been ingested). This argument takes no account of the taste of the liquids involved, of course!
Could it be that the methanol argument is something that's been hyped up by the various government agencies to deter people like us from doing what comes naturally?

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Yttrium
(stranger)
02/07/04 05:19 PM

Poison is in the dose new [re: rob_t]

Distilling can't create methanol, but it can concentrate it. Beer and wine both have methanol in them, but it really dilluted so in order to drink enough methanol for it to be dangerous you'd have to drink many gallons of beer or wine in a really brief time. Since drinking 10 gallons of beer in 10 minutes isn't possible, you're not likely to get methanol poisoning for drinking beer.

Now, if you were to distill that 10 gallons of beer instead of drinking it, you could concentrate all the methanol that was in the 10 gallons of beer into a shot glass. It is possible to drink a shot glass of liquid, so you can get methanol poisoning from it.

I agree that the dangers of methanol are certainly hyped, and I believe most of the hype comes from the Prohibition Era when two things were happening:

1. People were adding methanol to their home disilled spirits to increase their profits

2. People were homedistilling on massive scales. If you are distilling 5000 gallons of wash, you can easilly fill a half gallon bottle with the methanol that was in the wash.

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Fourway
(enthusiast)
02/08/04 09:32 AM

Re: Poison is in the dose new [re: Yttrium]

The big danger is from distilling large batches of stuff that's high in natural methanol and pectin like apples or grapes and catching and drinking the foreshots by themselves.

Some of the most nasty traditional moonshine in the world is "Scrumpy" from some rural regions of the UK where they do a single distillation of open barrel (wild yeast) fermented apple slurry and catch everything all together from the first drips of forshots to the last of the last of the tails.

The stuff is extremely high in methanol and other nasties because apple juice and pulp is a big meoh/pectin source and because random wild yeasts tend not to be terribly specific about what waste products they produce.

Folks who've tried it say that the first drink gives you a nice warm feeling the second drink makes you confused and grumpy and the third drink leaves you curled up in a fetal position on the floor emptying your stomach, bowel and bladder and laying in it untill you sober up enough to stand and drag your stinking self home to enjoy a searing three day five alarm hangover.

Even so, a drink of scrumpy mostly never kills anybody because the bad stuff is mixed into the whole run and not concentrated.
Habitual scrumpy drinkers may be in for a whole raft of serious health problems but they rarely go blind and die as a direct result of a single binge.


"Wine is Sunlight, Held Together By Water". --Galileo Galilei

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Blanchy
(journeyman)
02/08/04 10:38 AM

Re: Poison is in the dose new [re: Fourway]

Fourway,

Okay, I'll bite. Why do you know about Scrumpy?

Chuck

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tater
(member)
02/08/04 11:46 AM

Re: Poison is in the dose new [re: Fourway]

I knew a fella when i was a kid who had a small apple orcherd. And would grind his apples into barrels.Lay a loose lid across them add nothing. let them sit till he saw the green of leaves budding , Then double distill . By the bead id juged it to be from 80 to 100 proof. It had a kick anyway and a hang over.Was the way his family had allways made it. Other fokes I knew used yeast and or suger with their fruits. Dont remember seeing anyone tossing out the first of a run.But in those days . I guess they didnt know.Brew was allways blended together before being put in canning jars that i ever saw

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rob_t
(stranger)
02/08/04 01:38 PM

Re: Something to think about? new [re: rob_t]

Yttrium - I agree with what you say, the point I was making was on the assumption that all distillates were caught and mixed... then there'd be the same percentage methanol to ethanol. Obviously, if you just drank the foreshots you'd not be a well person (and you'd have to have zero sense of taste to do it!). Fourway illustrates the point; his old scrumpy maker would have ingested the same amount of methanol before he passed out senseless if he was drinking the distillate - "catch everything all together from the first drips of foreshots to the last of the last of the tails" - or if he drank the original mash (although he may have had trouble straining the apple/mould/rat pulp to produce anything that resembled a liquid!)

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rob_t
(stranger)
02/08/04 01:44 PM

Re: Poison is in the dose new [re: Fourway]

I always thought that scrumpy is the rough cider and the distilled liquor is called applejack?

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Jeepster
(stranger)
02/08/04 05:49 PM

Re: Poison is in the dose new [re: rob_t]

I thought appljack was separated by freezing. I did find there is a product called "Scrumpy Jack" by doing a google search for scrumpy

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Fourway
(enthusiast)
02/08/04 06:54 PM

Re: Poison is in the dose new [re: Blanchy]

Blanchy,

Not sure why it requires you biting, you can just ask.

Scrumpy is infamous stuff. I was very interested from the moment I heard of it. I've tried to find out as much as I could. Regrettably (or maybe not) I've never had the chance to taste it in person, but I have seen and inspected what was purported to be a former scrumpy still, and of course shamelessly interrogated anyone I've ever met who's had first hand experience with the stuff.

"Wine is Sunlight, Held Together By Water". --Galileo Galilei

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theholymackerel
(journeyman)
02/08/04 07:14 PM

Re: Poison is in the dose new [re: Fourway]

My G'pa used to talk about apple holler or pear holler, peach holler...etc.

I asked him if apple holler is like applejack. He said " 'bout the same, except the holler is less polite." I never could get much i understood outta him...

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Blanchy
(journeyman)
02/09/04 08:00 AM

Re: Poison is in the dose new [re: theholymackerel]

Fourway,

The next step is obviously to make a batch of Scrumpy as best as you can and then drink an amount that is only slightly less than lethal (just to get the full effect of course).

Chuck

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rob_t
(stranger)
02/09/04 10:08 AM

Re: Poison is in the dose new [re: Blanchy]

Try this:
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~gunning/scrumpy/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

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Fourway
(enthusiast)
02/09/04 10:12 PM

Re: Poison is in the dose new [re: rob_t]

I'm much more interested in the traditional process and the lore and craft surrounding it than I am in trying to take a stab at making something that might be like it.
What has always interested me is seeing things done by the authentic heirs of a tradition before there's nobody left who knows how it was done.
Especially with stuff like scrumpy because I'm really not anxious to actually ingest much of it (though I'd be thrilled to get a taste of the genuine article).


"Wine is Sunlight, Held Together By Water". --Galileo Galilei

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Blanchy
(journeyman)
02/10/04 06:48 AM

Re: Poison is in the dose new [re: Fourway]

I think I had mentioned previously the I had managed to get a nip of Absinthe in the Jura region of Switzerland. I actually liked mine better. Their version while good, didn't have any post distillation herbal infusion while the French recipe posted on this site does which makes the more flavorful drink. That being said, I was impressed with myself for a week just for being able to find the bootleg product.

Chuck

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Schluckebier
(stranger)
02/19/04 11:39 AM

Re: Poison is in the dose new [re: Blanchy]

You do realise, of course, that "Scrumpy" is not what is commonly known as distilled? If You distill a batch of Scrumpy You will end up with a batch of absolutely metanol-free spirit that You can drink without any risk of beeing poisoned at all. But then again - it's no longer Scrumpy.

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Fourway
(enthusiast)
02/24/04 07:14 AM

Re: Poison is in the dose new [re: Schluckebier]

I suspect that it's a multi-use word... I see that a great number of folks seem to refer to simple hard cider as scrumpy in the same way that lots of americans call hard cider "Apple Jack".

But lots of folks do call the rough meoh laden distilled libation "Scrumpy" and that (not simple hard cider) is the stuff upon which Terry Pratchett based the Discworld's Sto Plains' distilled beverage "Scumble" .

"Wine is Sunlight, Held Together By Water". --Galileo Galilei

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theholymackerel
(journeyman)
02/24/04 12:49 PM

Re: Poison is in the dose new [re: Fourway]

I have fond memories of readin' the Discword series back in the early 80's.

I remember the Capitol was a set of twin cities seperated by a river. One of the cities was "Morepork", and I don't remember it's twin's name. Do you remember it's name Fourway?

(Every time I think of "Morepork" I laugh.)

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rob_t
(stranger)
02/25/04 10:12 AM

Re: Poison is in the dose new [re: theholymackerel]

The city name was Ankh-Morpork!

Fourway... sorry to p**s on your bonfire, (as we Brits say), but I can confirm after talking to several people here who come from the real cider county (Somerset), that scrumpy is definitely just the plain rough cider. I've been doing a lot of research and can't find a traditional name for the distilled spirit apart from "apple brandy"... still working on it though!

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unclejesseAdministrator
(journeyman)
03/19/04 07:42 PM

Re: Something to think about? new [re: rob_t]

you will only produce trace amounts of methanol in a traditional grain mash. that's why I always toss the first 250ml of my runs. the problem is not that there is a lot of methanol in the first 250ml, the problem is that anyone making whiskies and other spirits will re-use the heads. so, if you don't toss that first bit of methanol, over time you can accumulate enough to cause a problem. normally methanol is only produced by fermenting wood products, if I'm not mistaken. isopropyl is denatured which _can_ mean it's methanol, but you can also get denatured ethanol which is basically the same thing. there are books detailing denaturing processes.

as was stated, a big problem was folks using dirt-cheap methanol to cut their ethanol to increase profits. another problem is that moonshiners sometimes do not take cuts! as has been said. this is why some moonshine will burn your mouth, tongue, throat and stomach when you drink it. if they would lower their temperatures and take even some general cuts the product would be much improved.

another huge problem was that shiners would often use lead solder or an actual car radiator which is soldered with lead (even modern radiators.) this would poison people damned fast.




It was the whiskey talkin', not me.

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Yttrium
(newbie)
03/20/04 06:20 AM

Re: Something to think about? new [re: unclejesse]

I don't believe isopropyl alcohol, AKA rubbing alcohol, is denatured. Isopropyl alcohol is naturally undrinkable without having to add nasty stuff like bezene to it. Here's what the three look like:
Our friend ethanol:
http://cwx.prenhall.com/bookbind/pubboo ... 0-02UN.JPG" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Methanol, BOOO!!!:
http://cwx.prenhall.com/bookbind/pubboo ... 1-07UN.JPG" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Isopropyl Alcohol:
http://cwx.prenhall.com/bookbind/pubboo ... 1-10UN.JPG" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow


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unclejesseAdministrator
(member)
03/21/04 09:53 AM

Re: Something to think about? new [re: Yttrium]

i believe that the term denatured, and perhaps isopropyl, is a generic term. i'd have to look it up and my books are packed away. you can make denatured alcohol in many ways, not sure if isopropyl necessarily implies methanol...

i know it stinks to high hell


It was the whisky talkin', not me.

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Fourway
(enthusiast)
03/21/04 05:57 PM

Re: Something to think about? new [re: unclejesse]

Isopropyl is the name of a specific compound just like ethanol or methanol are. I believe it's (ch3)2choh.

"Wine is Sunlight, Held Together By Water". --Galileo Galilei

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unclejesseAdministrator
(member)
03/22/04 08:27 AM

Re: Something to think about? new [re: Fourway]

and the fundamental differences between that and ethanol are what?


It was the whisky talkin', not me.

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Fourway
(enthusiast)
03/22/04 02:45 PM

Re: Something to think about? new [re: unclejesse]

ethanol is ch3ch2oh and methanol is ch3oh.
Ethanol gets you drunk and you can metabolize and eliminate it.
Methanol gets you drunk too but it metabolizes into formaldehyde which is extremely destructive to living tissue and very difficult to eliminate.
Isopropyl doesn't get you drunk and you can't metabolize it but it tends to cause projectile diarrhea and vomiting in conjunction with searing five alarm abdominal cramps so it's sort of on the short list of things you shouldn't drink.

"Wine is Sunlight, Held Together By Water". --Galileo Galilei

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Yttrium
(newbie)
03/22/04 03:04 PM

Re: Something to think about? new [re: Fourway]

isoproyl alcohol is ch3-ch-oh-ch3. The links that I posted are pictures of the molecules of ethanol, isopropyl alcohol, and methanol look like. The white balls are hydrogen atoms, the black balls are carbon atoms, and the red balls are oxygen atoms.

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unclejesseAdministrator
(member)
03/22/04 08:53 PM

Re: Something to think about? new [re: Fourway]

right, but how is isopropyl produced as opposed to ethanol? wood fibers?


It was the whisky talkin', not me.

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Fourway
(enthusiast)
03/23/04 04:02 AM

Re: Something to think about? new [re: unclejesse]

Petroleum I think

"Wine is Sunlight, Held Together By Water". --Galileo Galilei

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unclejesseAdministrator
(member)
03/26/04 02:35 PM

Re: Something to think about? new [re: Fourway]

interesting.


It was the whisky talkin', not me.